IE7 Bugs and Reviews 851
An anonymous reader wrote to mention a Register article in which the possibility is raised of the current build dumping Yahoo and Google toolbars. At the same time, GWBasic writes "I've posted a review on IE 7 Beta 1. It is very clear that, unlike when Microsoft targeted Netscape, they are using their classic method of producing superior software by catering to the needs of the user. This is not IE 6 with a few features borrowed from the competition, but rather a clear step in the evolution of user-centric design." Flexbeta and ZDNet have looks at the new browser as well.
Looks like firefox (Score:5, Insightful)
But the next time someone says "OSS only copies from Microsoft", remind them of IE7.
Didn't follow Firefox? (Score:4, Insightful)
"evolution of user-centric design"? (Score:5, Insightful)
The only thing that could be called truly new is the combined dropdown box for Back and Forward. Interesting idea, but it's certainly not "a clear step in the evolution of user-centric design."
Does it support W3C standards? (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft wins if people allow IE7 to be a crippled browser in terms of web development.
Something borrowed, nothing new (Score:5, Insightful)
Tabbed browsing has been added, dropdown search, add-on manager. Now where have I seen those all before?
Seems like a good effort by Microsoft to play catch up, but that's it. Aside from the anti-phising feature, I've yet to see one new feature of any importance.
Re:Looks like firefox (Score:3, Insightful)
The Browser Wars : The Empire Strikes Back (Score:2, Insightful)
This actually may turn out to be more important than loosing to Apple or even Linux ( on the desktop ). Their product is the most popular in the market, but the underdogs are catching up fast. They are better in all respects, they get evolved where IE rarely gets updated, geeks love them.. Its a touch call for Microsoft. They are placing their bets on Lonhorn and IE7. Should their new toys fail to meet the raised expectations, Microsoft will loose big. By Google, Apple, IBM and everyone waiting to get his chance against the King.
Re:Its actually pretty good (Score:3, Insightful)
fraudeliminator [mozilla.org] Shows a toolbar that indicates whether the site you are at is really the one you think it is. Utilizes constantly-updated blacklists and artificial intelligence. Helps prevent phishing.
There you go. And the cool thing about FF is, that you can ADD to it. Without needing to wait until a big corp does it for you in a blackbox kindof way. (because the button is there it doesn't mean it's failproof or it actually works.)
What a terrible "review" (Score:5, Insightful)
"When only one tab is open, the tab bar is visible. At the right of all tabs is a small tab that immediately opens a new tab. This would make more sense as a button immediately to the right of the X to close a tab."
Yeah, that's sensible, put the "open new" button right next to the "close" button, that'll make sense for 99% of the population who don't have perfectly precise mastery of the mouse pointer. He also talks about dropping non-IE browsers years ago because they were "unpolished" but then mentions he switched to CrazyBrowser, which is a cluttered mess in its default configuration! The entire article screams of unprofessionalism.
Re:Something borrowed, nothing new (Score:5, Insightful)
All it NEEDS to do is catch-up. Microsoft is in the position of dominance, and all they need to do is produce something 'good enough.' It is the upstarts that need to aspire to 'great.'
Because, being good enough, and coming installed on 90% of the computers sold is a very powerful combination.
Not to mention the fact that it still has the IE specific features that people use. It is the only browser that runs a good percentage of the WYSIWYG editors out there. And people will keep using it because of things like that.
I don't mean to. (Score:0, Insightful)
So it's no suprising it looks like Firefox, how else could they design it ? Still, its in beta and GUI could still be rough until finished.
Incidentley, the GUI in Windows Classic looks disgusting
It has SFA to do with features (Score:4, Insightful)
I haven't heard about any security enhancements to IE 7 but if we can assume any that have been added are on the same level of ability as "Genuine Advantage" then the Firefox developers have absolutely nothing to worry about.
Re:Oh for god sake.... (Score:5, Insightful)
While a review on a website probably doesn't accomplish this, the whole point to a beta is to get user input on bugs and other criticisms so that the end product is improved from what the engineers originally thought was a good idea.
Re:Classic method? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Classic method? (Score:3, Insightful)
Weird Interface (Score:5, Insightful)
- "Phishing?" Do not use that word in the final version. It looks stupid, it sounds stupid, and worst of all, like the one review said, no one but Slashdot users will know what it means.
- The menus. What the hell? I can understand the concept that by placing the menus next to the browser, the options apply to the tab, but honestly, most of them don't. This is totally inconsistent and just plain stupid.
- The tabs look alright. Not great, just alright. I think the "blank" tab to create a new tab is also stupid. I mean, maybe it's a good concept, but it needs more. Maybe a different color, or a small label, but just blank, it looks dumb.
- As usual, The Register is wrong. My Google Toolbar worked fine in IE7. Problem is, it looked like Firefox with the Google toolbar, simply redundant. I disabled it.
However, there are large improvements, like the rendering engine, and the Feeds (which I didn't play around with too too much). It's a good start, Microsoft, but I hope they're not finished yet. There's a lot of work left to do.Re:Oh for god sake.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well to be fair IE 7 is a very important product release, whether it's a blazing success, or a tremendous dud. A beta 1 is usually fairly feature complete.
Having said that, the so-called review was inane, poorly written, and obviously hacked together in no-time to try to get some namespace. The "reviewer" basically just shows a couple of screenshots, and hilariously claims that this is some great new paradigm, and it isn't IE 6 with some tweeks. No, my reviewing friend, IE 7 is IE 6 with some tweaks, and in some ways is inferior to some of the IE 6 "mods" (like MaxIE) released years ago. Perhaps there is something extraordinary hidden in there, but thus far it has been the most astounding is this it???? ever. That "reviewer" is yet another lame astroturfer praying that Bill Gates might read his gloating, tripping over himself "review" and hire him (which are pretty common, and universally pathetic).
Re:Looks like firefox (Score:5, Insightful)
Opera is much more managed, and in many ways I like it because I just don't have to worry about if all those addins I installed will work with the next version of firefox, etc... I just want a browser that works.
Oh and I love the session management in opera.
But I wouldn't say Firefox is a poor implementation of opera. It's just another way of looking at the experience of the web browser, that is influenced by Opera heavily.
I'm not a usability expert but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Really, look at this: http://www.clothedandy.com/Writings/IE%207%20Beta
I mean, it's stupid. It "disassociates" tabs from the page, and it puts that menu in the middle. Why put in such relevant place a menu that it's so rarely used?
It's clearly a huge usability mistake IMO. It looks like IE developers though: "saving screen space == good usability". It's not. Good usability is good usability, and seeing that "file edit" menu there hurts my eyes.
Re:Totally inaccurate introduction (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh the mirth! (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, that's the funniest and most completely bullshit sentence I have read all year. Nobody cares about the "evolution of user-centric design" (what the fuck is that supposed to mean, anyway? It's just 100% PR waffle, straight from the arse of a dihorettic bull), the general public variety of users don't know what they want, don't really care and shouldn't be given any say in the matter anyway.
It's us DEVELOPERS who have to put up with the "nuances" (and that's being polite) of Microsoft's sub standard browser offering. It's our employers who pay us a fortune in man hours so that we can work round these "nuances". And it's our future careers that depend on browse consistency and the full implementation of standards like SVG and CSS3. I am absolutely gutted that Microsoft failed on every level to implement worthwhile technologies and bring their browser up to scratch, they insult us developers by implementing long-overdue PNG transparency which we can't use until everyone has switched away from IE5/6 anyway, and claim to have "improved" their abysmal CSS support.
Who gets the real benefit from the new IE? The people who matter most. The mindless drones who will lap up any offering from MS, or get it installed on their PC automatically whether they like it or not. The people too stupid to have switched to a better browser already. The brain-dead end users have their silly tabs and phishing scam (read: user stupidity) filter, and we get nothing.
Even if this is "just a beta" it demonstrates not days, not months, but YEARS... yes YEARS of freaking work and does not include any significant changes. It doesn't even deserve a new version number. We all know it already, but Windows is a joke, IE is a joke, and Microsoft are a joke who can't be bothered to do anything properly because as long as idiot uneducated users lap up their crappy products they have an enduring monopoly and there is not a damned thing we can do about it.
I say us developers should lobby our employers to sue over lost profits. Microsofts failure to implement standards means we are still unable to deliver cutting edge software to our users, and we still have to put up with IE's goddamned quirks. Microsoft should be sued by every company on earth with its hand in web development and FORCED to bring their crap-pile browser up to scratch and keep it that way instead of pissing away their time making sure the browser interface is just the right degree of "fucking confusing" to send any sane persons hatrid of IE into critical mass.
For lack of a better ending. GRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Oh please, ignore the troll. (Score:4, Insightful)
Boy, aren't we trollish today.
1) IE finally got with it and threw in tabbed browsing. Not revolutionary, since Opera and Mozilla came up with it before, but evolutionary for sure.
2) IE finally came up with a simpler navigational system. Until now IE needed two toolbars on the top of my screen compared to Firefox's one (not including the tab bar or the menu bar). They simplified their back and forward buttons, as well as combining the stop and refresh button, and combined two toolbars into one. Certainly evolutionary.
And the best part...
3) Microsoft included an Add-on manger with this version of IE 7. It allows BHOs to be turned on and off.
What can I say? IT'S ABOUT FREAKIN' TIME!
For those who don't know the acronym, BHO stands for "Browser Helper Objects," or as they've been described to me by other users, "Toolbars from hell." They're the adware-included toolbars littered with casino links and junk, as well as redirecting all your 404 and search inquiries to their sponsored pages. Finally, rather than having to dig through the registry to HKLM(and HKCU)/Software/Microsoft/CurrentVersion/Explorer/
However, I do still have one complaint. Microsoft can piss off for making this XP-only. 50% of businesses are still using 2K. That's a lot of people to piss off.
Re:Does it support W3C standards? (Score:3, Insightful)
In addition Joe Average User would care if he knew how much money companies, like his bank, spent on web developers writing work arounds because IE is broken.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, what an idiot. (Score:2, Insightful)
Then he mentions these superior features: .... opens a new tab. I was like, wow. And then he explains that he doesn't think it's a good UI element anyway.
- tabbed browsing
- a context menu that opens links in a new tab
- it doesn't pass the acid test
- it has "phishing protection" (whatever the hell that is--he doesn't explain what it does)
- a revolutionary navigation system where you can see your browsing history in one list
- a (small) tab that
- a search box in the top right corner - lack of toolbar options
- you can manage the addons in the browser.
This guy is an idiot. Look at the prefs. It's just the IE6 prefs with the version number bumped. And this guy has the nerve to suggest that IE7 is completely different from the current version? Come on!
Re:I liked Internet Explorer 7 the first time... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Something borrowed, nothing new (Score:5, Insightful)
Mediocrity is the design goal for IE7.
Microsoft's "security" initiatives (Score:5, Insightful)
It also seems that Microsoft is using all its "security initiatives" to intrude evermore into consumers' lives, get more data about them, sign them up for Microsoft services, and lock out competitors. With IE7, apparently there will be yet another layer of intrusion: phishing protection by sending all visited URLs to Microsoft. Do you really think the average user will think about the privacy implications of this?
And let's not kid ourselves: Microsoft is not the only company doing this. Today I installed a Logitech mouse under Windows, and guess what -- it wanted to install a "Logitech messenger" to automatically get updates and deliver "product information". Spyware and adware, it seems, is becoming the norm, rather than the exception, even for "respectable" applications. Microsoft's interest in spyware maker Claria confirms this trend.
Now, IE7 will offer some features which competitors have had for years to average users who would never try Firefox. This is a good thing, and as some have pointed out, the gigantic feature advantage that Firefox will retain (particularly its extensibility, but also upcoming improvements such as SVG support and super-fast back/forward) will hopefully drive more users to it. I can't help but wonder, though, whether we are witnessing the development of a massively polarized information society, where some will work and play in a maximally commercialized environment full of spyware and ads, and others will have free software, built by regular people in their own enlightened self-interest. And it seems that Microsoft, rather than AOL as was predicted in the early days of the Net, is the driving force behind this.
Perhaps it is time to rethink the PC concept -- from what is preinstalled to service and support -- on the basis of free software. An "open PC" that comes with thousands of free applications and games as well as an Internet-based support and update contract could be an excellent deal. Lindows seems to have tried something like this, but they don't seem to be clued up enough to me to pull it off.
Re:Oh please, ignore the troll. (Score:1, Insightful)
The claim from TFA was that it was an "evolution of user-centric design", which implies that Microsoft is doing something in a user-centric way that hasn't been done before, and has implications for the future of user-centric design.
You wouldn't call it "a clear step in the evolution of mammals" if a cat learned how to walk upright. Perhaps it would be a step in the evolution of cats, but there was lots of walking upright among mammals already, so it means little to mammals as a whole.
Re:tabbed browsing (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, opening a fresh window instead of a tab is resource consuming.
You can't middle click on link in IE and expect the page to be ready when you come to it.
You can't pick up windows and rearrange them in the taskbar while you can do that with tabs (at least in many applications).
The taskbar just doesn't suit as a tab bar replacement. It just doesn't.
Re:Does it support W3C standards? (Score:3, Insightful)
When Microsoft Targeted Netscape (Score:3, Insightful)
Classic method of producing superior software? As opposed to their classic method of spreading FUD, their classic method of "embrace, extend, extinguish", or their classic method of cutting off the competition's air supply?
I'll grant that Microsoft did improve IE a great deal during the Netscape days, as one of the prongs in a multi-pronged attack on that company. Hell, history shows that the only motivation that Microsoft has for improving IE at all is competitive threat. The fact that they're starting to show some genuine improvement in IE again (after some years of stagnation) is testament to the fact that they're taking Firefox seriously.
What distinguishes this from the Netscape days is that Microsoft already played their "integrate the browser into the OS" trump card, and their new competitor has no "air supply" revenue streams to constrict. On top of which, Google is demonstrating itself to be a damn clever producer of web-applications which are genuinely cross-platform, so the whole "embrace and extend" tactic is starting to show signs of fatigue.
Microsoft might face a new challenge here: going feature-nuts on IE is one way to compete, but it's likely to open up new avenues of insecurity in a browser that already has the worst security track record. I don't think of Firefox as the be-all and end-all in secure browsing, but can Microsoft deliver the goods in security, even against a less-than-perfect competitor? I know they can bolt on features like there's no tomorrow, but it looks to me like security is the major root cause of Firefox migration at this point. Can Microsoft compete on security?
So MS = Evil, Now What? (Score:2, Insightful)
This is a beta, and a beta one at that. I find the bashing and such unseemly. Yes, ff is in my opinion better, but I would rather MS try to give us what we've shown we like rather than what they think is good for us. Borrowing popular design features from your competitors is a time honored tradition is every industry. It doesn't freak me out or offend me. Hopefully, enough feedback from users will result in a more polished product at final. That is the idea really.
The under the hood stuff that matters to developers, is in my opinion and probably for 99 per cent of the users, irrelevant. Developers have to make it work. I could care less about acid test and css compliance. I want it to render fast and go where I want. Frankly, I still find for most sites, that IE renders a bit faster. Not significantly, but it is there.
I expect on this board where "ms = evil" to go on trashing this and vista (stupid name), but the reality is that one week after being released as final, they will both have a larger installed user base than mac and linux combined. Ditto on the browser front. And that is with people having to go to the trouble of downloading IE7.
Like it or not, if a challengers are going to even break 15 per cent combined, they are going to have to wow the general public with ease of use and integrated features. Having a group of geeks feeling smug in their little corner of the net does not bring success. Sorry, I didn't invent the world.
Re:Something borrowed, nothing new (Score:4, Insightful)
In the big picture, those are just tweaks. Microsoft engineers spent tens of thousands of hours working on IE, so adding tabbed browsing was likely relatively easy.
Firefox advocates/users who have been acting as if things like tabbed browsing, ad blocking, and so on, are huge, difficult, quantum leaps...they've been deluding themselves. Firefox has always come across as IE + some extra niceties. That's why I use it.
Re:Man that Rocks (Score:1, Insightful)
You can easily see this behaviour in Visual Studio.Net which has been around for quite some time.
Did they steal *that* design idea from someone? Quite possibly...all I'm pointing out is that at least they're being consistent.
Re:Something borrowed, nothing new (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the general computer-using public have soured on 'the latest and greatest' from Microsoft. The UI is basically unchanged since Windows 95 -- all that the consumer sees is less crashing. So I don't think that a ton of people will rush out to buy Vista or even try to get to XP SP2. They're happy with Windows 98, ME, 2000, XP, XP SP1, etc.
Now, when IE 7 comes along, and those people start asking "How can I get that?" the answer will be "Spend money and upgrade, or get Firefox."
It's in your head (Score:2, Insightful)
There is a tremendous amount of "bitching" which is functionally different from "constructive criticism"
I claim that the difference lies primarily in the mind of the beholder.
Microsoft getting old and slow? (Score:4, Insightful)
Virtual Earth is nowhere near Google's offering, and IE7 really is just an attempt to prevent defections.
It seems that Microsoft is trying to not look so bad, by offering something at least 'near' to what the competitors are offering.
Also, if Microsoft finds an IT company that's doing very well for itself in a lucrative market, that's Microsoft's next venture. All of the good ideas don't come from Redmond.
Re:Manage Add Ons IS IN IE 6! (Score:2, Insightful)
Then it isn't in IE 6. It's in IE 6 SP2, which is often considered a separate product.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Not really (Score:5, Insightful)
Most businesses are still stuck on W2k. They only get XP when they get a new machine, and for many companies (especially the small ones), this only happens when the old one dies or can't run the software anymore. As more apps move to the internets, the incentive to upgrade will go down. Don't have the .NET runtimes,
and can't install 'em on your Windows 98 box? Who cares? "Just fire
up the internet icon and click on the accounting button on the
intranet page" says the PHB.
My experience says things are different. Most people DO have an old PC, because they aren't geeks and don't care about getting the latest ATI card so they can play GTA:XXX. How old is your microwave? Why don't you 'upgrade' it? That's the same feeling the average person has towards computers.
Re:I liked Internet Explorer 7 the first time... (Score:5, Insightful)
Or FireFox zealots. Think about what usually starts this convo.
Morons (Score:5, Insightful)
From the review:
The stop and refresh buttons are combined into a single button that is logically separate from back and forward. The button is "cancel" while a page is loading, and "refresh" when the page is done loading. There's no need to clutter the screen with more buttons.
About the only feature of MSIE that I prefer over Mozilla/Firefox is the ability to click the stop button even after a page has fully loaded in order to stop those fscking animated GIFs.
Morons!
Re:I liked Internet Explorer 7 the first time... (Score:1, Insightful)
And Apple "stole" mice and a GUI from Xerox, and Linux "stole" features from UNIX, and General Motors "stole" the idea for the assembly line from Ford, need I go on? Oh, wait...Slashdot...Sony "stole" the TV from RCA (who really did steal it from Philo Farnsworth), Panasonic "stole" optical drives from Philips.
See, this is what happens in industry. One company comes out with an idea. The other companies then suck because they didn't have it first. But then they have their own version and hopefully they can add more to that. Waiiiitaminute...you aren't proposing stronger intellectual property and patent laws are you, maybe event software patents so that Microsoft can't "steal" anything else?
Tell me where you live so that I can follow you around with a baseball bat and whack you on the head every time you say, do, or produce anything that isnt 100% original.
Sure IE has it's problems. But now I'm tempted to use it and uninstall firefox just on principle, because I don't want to be associated with a bunch of whiny, superior, arrogant, miscreants.
(if it makes you're prick feel bigger to nitpick about the facts of the random list of products, then go ahead. But you have to promise to stab yourself in the eye for being so dense and missing the point.)
Phishing (Score:3, Insightful)
The key to anti-phishing is user education and keeping users informed of new cunning tricks spotted.
This will just make people feel that the technology will protect them and disengage their grey matter.
Re:Oh the mirth! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I liked Internet Explorer 7 the first time... (Score:2, Insightful)
Isn't this basically spyware, and incidentally a reason many people won't use Opera with the Google ads?
Re:Something borrowed, nothing new (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Bundle software that supports new standard
2. Wait for a critical mass of users to start using the software in their every day lives
3. Release new version of the software that adds support for microsoft-propriatory enhancements
4. Watch clueless users use the new "enhancements" without realising they're breaking compatability with every other piece of software out there
5. Watch competition suffer as the user perception of the competing software is that it's crap and doesn't support sites that work fine in the industry standard (read: Microsoft) software, even though those sites aren't at all standards complient.
And don't tell me you don't recognise the strategy...
Re:I liked Internet Explorer 7 the first time... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I liked Internet Explorer 7 the first time... (Score:3, Insightful)
Or, you can just type anything you damn well please into the Address Bar that doesn't look like a website, hit the 'down arrow' and it will search. (And you can even change the default from MSN to Google or anything else with a few extra clicks.)
Or you can type a ? followed by your search string and have it search that way.
How many FireFox features are borrowed from Microsoft, Netscape, Mosaic, Opera, etc?
As for Refresh, you can make those icons bigger, or hit F5 to reload, or Ctrl-F5 to *force* a full reload.