Modded Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 MPG 1359
artemis67 writes "Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage. It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret -- a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel. Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car."
don't expect this to show up too quickly... (Score:2, Insightful)
Nothing to see here, move along... (Score:3, Insightful)
Total BS (Score:1, Insightful)
Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away.
This is TOTAL bullshit. They could make something now, but they don't want to get their asses in gear to "capture" the new markets. They just stand to make more money the way things are now, which is doing nothing.
If one of them actually started doing it on a full-scale basis, you'd see everyone else jump into as well for fear of losing market share. Period.
NOx and CO, CO2 / mile (Score:2, Insightful)
I suspect - but have no proof - that the plug in option reduces some of the pollution per mile. The reason why I suspect this is that you have reduced the engine size and carry less of your fuel (part of which is at the power plant) Additionally the power plant should be able to run cleaner per Watt produced - they should have better polution reduction equipment.
Re:There's still pollution, though (Score:4, Insightful)
I do believe that the generators down at the power plant are in general more efficient than the engine in your car (though it's tricky to make an apples to apples comparison, as few power plants run on gasoline (though some probably do run on diesel)) but I suspect it's not a LOT more efficient.
Also, you were talking about `pollution per unit of energy' not efficiency, though in practice I suspect the two are just different ways of looking at the same thing -- after all, power plants will burn a given fuel in the same way that a car engine will, so the waste products will be the same. The power plant may be somewhat better maintained, however, and can have more things similar to a catalytic converters on a car.
And even if the power plant pollutes just as much as a car engine for a given amount of energy, there's another advantage -- the polution is generally produced away from the city, which helps keep the polution around the people who actually use the cars down.
That's certainly true. Alas, not much of the US's power comes from things like this.Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So like... (Score:5, Insightful)
I like these folks' idea: (Score:4, Insightful)
Put the motor in the hub. No drive train! AWD!
All I need is some big bucks to get a welding torch and put 4 in some old jalopy. (And some batteries..)
Anyone know what these things go for? They can use a lot of juice and put out a lot of power.
Cheers!
-b
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Consider this:
Energy content [faqs.org] of gasoline: ~45 MJ/kg
Density [simetric.co.uk] of gasoline: 737 kg/m3
1 cubic meter = 264.172051 gallons, equals 2.79 MJ/gallon.
Now 1 kWh is exactly 3.6 MJ. Electricity costs (let's exaggerate) 30 cents per kWh.
What do you pay for gas?
Now add to that the facts that:
1) It is easier to clean up a handfull of power-plants than a millions cars distributed over the whole country.
2) Electricity doesn't have to come from fossil fuel sources
3) Even if it does, power plants still produce energy more efficiently than an automobile engine.
Something's always bugged me about hybrids ... (Score:3, Insightful)
What about the batteries? Aren't most batteries toxic as hell? Isn't the manufacture and disposal of batteries a colossal headache? Am I really doing anything productive at all, trading a few gallons of Saudi crude for a lithium/ion toxic waste site? Somebody, please, set me straight. What do they do with the batteries?
Oh, and what if you live in a place with real winters? Last I heard, batteries die a quick and silent death in subzero conditions.
Love the Prius, but for the working class nerd... (Score:1, Insightful)
You can pick up an early 90s sentra for around 1500 bucks in decent condition and for about 400 bucks in after market parts, get it to 40mpg. I did just that. Just posting this because I know other people probably don't have the money, don't want the debt, or like me simply can't bring themselves to spend that much on a depreciating assett(aka, I'm a cheap bastard).
Re:Nothing to see here, move along... (Score:2, Insightful)
you are so wrong you are unbelieveably funny.
WE dont have that car or the smartcar here because GW bush and his buddies in oil and auto industries desperately do not want it here.
The smartcar get's 60mpg and can be bought just over the border in Canada. They are buying them faster than they can be imported. that same car is outselling everything else worldwide. When they are driven here in the USA EVERYONE that sees one wants one and asks where to get it espically after hearing how much gas mileage it get's and how unbelieveably cheap they are.
You can not buy the high efficency VW or the Mercedes Smart Car because GM,Ford,Chrysler, Mobil and everyone that has their fingers in the auto business and Oil business know they will all be utterly ruined if they get sold here.
Buy a toyota prius for $25,000.00 or buy a Smart car for $8900.00
guess what will outsell the toyota 10 to 1? here in the USA the land of my SUV is the extension of my penis, or I hope that the women think that it is...
anyone telling you that the high efficiency cars of europe will not sell here is lying bold faced to you.
I know. I drove a smartcar around detroit for 1 week that a friend in canad loande me, and I was stopped by thousands (yes THOUSANDS. it was a bitch to drive anywhere in it every corner you would get a flock of people coming to the car.) asking what it was and where could they get one.
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Everything except natural gas (which is running out and expensive) is stuck below about 35% efficient. Coal power plants a bit more efficient than an engine, but once you factor in transmission losses and storage losses it doesn't really look that good. That, and coal is a very dirty source of power (eg it releases lots of particulates some of them radioactive). The only viable large scale alternative is nuclear, and it's not exactly cheap.
Also, the transmission infrastructure can't take a significant number of people doing this.
Where do I plug it in? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
A solar panel car can give you quite a lot of mpg because it uses no liquid fuel, but try flooring it and see if you win a dragrace with it. You also don't get much of a legroom in a solar car.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Insightful)
Smartcars do well in Europe since most cars are very small (Citroens, Fiat Pandas, and the like) and there are fewer of them. Not many cars will be much bigger than yours, save for the occasional Mercedes or tractor-trailer.
The US is far different. Even in times of record high gas prices, SUVs are still selling since many people have the idea that size=safety. Just like the cold war arms race, no one wants a wimpy car that doesn't stand a chance against an encounter with an Escalade.
Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Shenanigans! Or, liars can figure. (Score:1, Insightful)
Charging the batteries is the equivalent of hauling the car up a large hill. You've raised the potential energy of the system. No big secret there. To claim you are getting more MPG is disingenuous at best, and outright fraud at worst.
What I'd like to know is what would the fuel economy of this vehicle be if he stopped playing his parlor tricks. With all that extra weight, he is probably seriously decreasing the true fuel economy of the vehicle. He claims he still gets the Prius average of 45 MPG when the added charge runs out. Has he run the vehicle without the nightly top ups in order to show this, or is he just guessing?
I'd like to point out that my Jetta TDI averages 45 MPG without fancy batteries, and more importantly gets 50 MPG at full highway speeds, ie 65-75 MPH. Additionally, I've run it without fossil fuel at all. Has our intrepid experimenter run his vehicle more than 300 miles in a day without a drop of fossil fuel? I think not.
Yes, there is a use for plug-in hybrids, but let's not resort to hyperbole to promote them.
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Nothing to see here, move along... (Score:3, Insightful)
They'll want to buy them when gas hits $5 a gallon.
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:3, Insightful)
The nice thing about a hybrid is that its range isn't limited by the amount of energy its batteries can store. So you can use the batteries for your daily commute and short trips, while still using gas for your occasional long drives. That's probably a better solution than having to buy both an electric for daily use and a traditional car for long trips.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm tired of hearing this. While that might be part of it, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to own an SUV.
My family has 7 people in it. To travel semi-comfortably on vacation, we pretty much have to use a Suburban. A minivan, while it does have room for 7, doesn't have room for luggage. We're not anywhere near alone in this.
My family also enjoys camping and using a shared family boat. Both of these require a vehicle that can tow a lot of weight. There's not many options for a even a family of 5 to travel and tow something this size besides a large SUV. We're not anywhere near alone in this.
It's not something we really like. After all, ~15 MPG with a 45 gallon gas tank and $2.50 per gallon add up to some pretty big numbers for a trip. Because of this we also have a smaller vehicle for everyday use. This isn't to say that SUVs are always used for a good reason. I'm sure there's plenty of people who just like the big cars, same as they like big houses. But SUVs also have many valid purposes.
Hybrid's Still Aren't Attractive (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:So like... (Score:2, Insightful)
And as an added bonus, you get to show everyone that YOU CARE. You can shame your republican neighbors and impress the hippie chicks at the food co-op.
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:3, Insightful)
It isn't clean; generating electricity from sunlight means using either crystaline silicon or gallium arsenide. Both involve massive amounts of toxic chemicals in both manufacture and disposal. Just because you get a warm fuzzy feeling because they aren't polluting while you own them doesn't make them 'clean'.
Re:There's still pollution, though (Score:2, Insightful)
Lets do some statistics - Their are a total of 2,776 power plants in the United States - Lets compare that with the estimated 1.9 million cars in the United States
The ratios between the different types of power plants goes as follows : Coal accounts for 43% of the energy in the US , Gas is 19% , Nuclear 14%, Renewable enery 12%, Petroleum 7%, Hydroelectric 3%
So anyways back on topic your saying that 63% of the US's power supply is made from dirty sources ( coal - gas and petrol ) is equivalent to 1.9 million cars, thats 1748 ( dirty ) power plants.
People that saying buying a fucking hybrid is a crime because they ASSUME that the energy created comes from dirty power sources ( might be the case in your area, might not ) are complete dumbasses.
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:3, Insightful)
So, using your numbers (except for your high electricity price) the electric car gets four times the miles/dollar as the gas car. Of course, the electric RAV4 only gets 100 of those miles per charge. Based on a month's driving and his electricity bill, we calculated that the electric RAV4 cost about 1 cent/mile in electricity.
Of course, the car was very expensive, and the batteries will probably need to be replaced after (say) 80,000 miles at a cost of (say) $10,000, so that drives the cost/mile up considerably -- but battery technology is getting better, pretty fast.
But right now, at least, the cost of energy for getting vehicles down the road is significantly cheaper using electricity vs gasoline. It's probably an historical oddity that won't last -- as many forms of energy are fungible.
Thad Beier
Re:And to think a Motorcycle will do even better. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Doing the right thing isn't always about saving money....
I usually plow snow in the winter as a second job (Find me another second job where you make $50 and hour to drive around in a truck smoking cigarettes and listening to music) but I almost never drive my plow truck in the summer. Is at a big, comfy F350 dually crew cab? Yes. Can I afford to gas it and drive it to work everyday? Yes. Do I? No. I sometimes ride my bike, sometimes carpool and sometimes drive my car. But my big, comfy (I am 6'4" so a F350 is nice for me) truck at home all winter. Why? Because I feel a responsibility for the Earth
80mpg is not new (Score:1, Insightful)
But I could just be retarded
MPG doesn't matter if you don't drive. (Score:3, Insightful)
But perhaps the best solution is getting your local government to support mixed use zoning. New Urbanism [newurbanism.org] is a great start, but not if these end up as islands in a sea of suburbia -- you'd just end up driving to get to them, sort of like a Universal Studio's City Walk. Relaxation of zoning and land-use laws in suburban areas would help even more. The ability to open a cafe on the corner of your subdivision -- or even in your own house -- would be a great way to create more local services that obviate the need for driving.
Re:You missed the point (Score:3, Insightful)
As it continues to become more expensive to commute, people like you will either go broke commuting, or find a way to make a living locally.
I'd rather see farmland in places like Ohio & Upstate NY be used as farmland, instead of being yet another place for asshats sick of citylife to throw up yet another cookie-cutter 4 bed/2.5 ba colonial on 1.2 acres.
Re:Maximum fuel consumption (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I'm just thankful that my Saturn gets (Score:3, Insightful)
Please don't compare RVs with cars. It would be absolutely impossible to make an RV get 30MPG like a one ton Saturn. RVs have to haul a huge ammout of weight, fight very strong headwinds, and still be able to get up to highway speeds.
That's all subjective. A great many people don't have the option of NOT driving, so even if the price ballons, they will keep on paying for it.
In Europe, gas prices are much higher than in the US, much higher than $4/gal already, and that hasn't stopped everyone from driving.
Maybe if gas prices continue to rise, you'll see a large number of people buying all-electric GEMs, attaching wheels twice as large (perimeter), and driving them to/from work. That should give them a max speed of 50 MPH. It's unfortunate they weren't built better, or they might be much more popular.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
2005 Dodge Caravan SWB SXT
3.3L V6 180HP 19/26 mpg
2005 Dodge Durango SLT 4X2
3.7L V6 210HP 16/21 mpg
For example.
I dunno, for the closest comparable engines, that looks mighty similar.
For an SUV with similar fuel economy to a minivan, you're not going to get 7 seats. You're also probably not going to get as much usable cargo room (you might not even in the 7 passenger SUV), you're probably going to pay more, and you probably won't get crashworthiness as good.
Minivans get a free pass because they do everything that most SUV buyers are buying their SUVs for, or CLAIMING they're buying them for, they do some of them BETTER, they often do it CHEAPER, and with better fuel economy.
Re:So like... (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand as long as those people pay for their indulgence I have no inclination to interfere. But when they insist on carrying on telephone conversations in these death dealing behemoths because they can't stand the idea of the boredom involved in actually paying attention to driving, I wish phone calls by a driver would be illegal if the driver does not pull over.
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Rent a more suitable vehicle.
Seriously. If it gets to the point that an all electric vehicle will save you a couple thousand* a year, and will cover 98% of your driving needs, it's probably worth it. 98% translates out to you needing a different vehicle 7 days of the year.
Rental car companies don't like making their rates public, but Alamo currently offers a compact car for $164 for a week, Minivan $239, SUV $249. Sure, there's some hassle with getting a rental, but many deliver, and if it became common, I'm sure they'd offer 'swap services' where they keep your car in their lot(and even charge it!) for the duration of your rental of one of their gasoline vehicles for your trip.
If you know that you're going to need two vehicles, I'd seriously consider how often you'll need the 'larger vehicle' before you pay that multi-thousand dollar increase. Don't forget that you'll be paying more in insurance and fuel.
*numbers in current dollars. Inflation may skew results in the future.
Re:So like... (Score:3, Insightful)
The most survivable accident is the one you don't get into.
It's a whole lot easier to avoid an accident in a small car.
Also, the size of your car doesn't make much difference if you say, hit a tree or a light post. That's a situation where you'd be better off in a Mini than a truck. (You also would be less likely to roll.)
http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINI
Can't say much bad about your car, in particular, though. Might not be as nimble as a Miata, but it's low to the ground, isn't going to override other people, isn't going to roll...it's just BIG.
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't recycle aluminum, or anything else. If I got a break on my garbage bill I would (maybe), but as is...forget it.
How much do you get paid to drive to the city facility to get rid of old paint and batteries instead of throwing them out?
I don't do these things either. Perhaps if I got a break on the bill when I haul stuff out to the dump? Assuming that I didn't pay for that break with my taxes?
How much do you save by (Name any act that is helpful to the enviornment)?
I haul my trash out when I go hiking or hunting. Does that count? Of course I benefit in the latter activity by racking up a year's worth of Bambi steaks AND save money on beef in the process, so hauling my trash out after a hunt isn't precisely a selfless activity....
Doing the right thing isn't always about saving money....
When talking about the economic behaviors of population groups it's pretty much all about money. Very few people are going to spend oodles of extra cash simply so they can get kudos from some group of whacko environmentalists; the benefit has to be more immediate, tangible, and proven to actually work.
Hybrid cars aren't any of these things. They're a waste of resources, a waste of tax dollars (subsidies!), and worst of all - they aren't that much more efficient than an economy sedan. Big whoop.
Because I feel a responsibility for the Earth
That's great. But what you have to understand is that your feelings are just that - your feelings. No one else is obligated to feel the same way you do about "the Earth", and most people are going to make the rational economic choice rather than the irrational one.
If you want people to join you in saving the planet, you're going to have to show them how it personally benefits them, most likely by putting cash back in their wallets. Telling them it'll "help the ecology" or some such ephemeral rot isn't going to impress them.
Max
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:One person suffering trade offs is not conclusi (Score:3, Insightful)
There is no consumer pressure to make fuel-efficient cars because the very inefficiency and extravagance of the modern SUV is what is really being purchased by design. People want wasteful, expensive vehicles because they are fashion statements. They say, "Look at me! I have assloads of discretionary income." An Armani suit is manifestly inferior to jeans and a denim work shirt in purely practical terms, but no one buys Armani because it's practical. A twenty-dollar digital watch is a functionally better watch than a fancy Rolex, but people aren't buying Rolexes because of their chronographic accuracy.
If you want to reduce the waste of resources, you have two options: make efficiency hipper than waste, or require efficiency through regulation. To wait for simple market forces to correct the situation is to wait in vain: viewed through a purely economic lens, the market is working correctly. It is delivering what people want, which is waste.
Energy-efficiency is primarily a social problem, and only secondarily a technological or economic problem. Oh sure, in the long term, energy-efficiency is a survival problem for the human race, but humans are not very good at long-term decision-making.
The best car is NONE. (Score:3, Insightful)
1. I didn't get my license until I was 23, and then it was because my evil Evil EVIL ex-wife demanded that I learn how to drive. So I bludgered about in her POS Mercury Bobcat and got my license. The Bobcat (mercifully) self-destructed a few years later. So: first: DON'T DRIVE unless you have some psycho harpy bitch chewing you a new final voluntary sphincter (cuz it feels good, at first... nemmind...)
2. I didn't own a car of my own until I was 27. A 1972 Chevy Nova. Got horrible mileage, but no one fucked with me over a parking space. It was olive green and nicknamed the Urban Assault Vehicle. After I put it into a guard rail doing about 95 dodging a fucking DEER in Pennsylvania (long story) I sold the parts for what I paid for the car - $425.
3. I moved across the country after that and didn't own another car of my own for almost 5 years. When I did get one, it was an old Honda Civic wagon I bought for $800. I sold it a few years later to my sister for $700.
4. In 1999 I bought my present vehicle, a 1991 Toyota Corolla. It gets about 27 mpg on the highway and about 19 in the city. It's old and dying and there is NO way it's going to pass Smog next month, so the State will take it off my hands for $1000.
After that, I won't own a car, and I hope to never have to own another. If I DO buy another car, it will likely be an old used Geo Metro or an old Rabbit Diesel so I can run it on vegetable oil.
If you REALLY want to do the Earth a BIG FAT FAVOUR DON'T buy a car. And if you do, buy a gas sipping used car. Why?
1. The energy that went into making the car (which is about equal to the amount of energy the damn thing will consume) has already been spent.
2. Buying a new car means that at your behest and convenience a lot of energy was spent making this energy sucking device.
3. NOT using a car at all, or renting them when you need them, means that you have organised your life in such a way that they are no longer of use to you. And THAT is a good thing - I am convinced that Suburbia will prove to be the single most wasteful expense of resources the human species has ever endured.
The best way to predict the future is to invent it. So LIVE THE FUTURE NOW. Get rid of your car. Move to a small (or even not so small) city that has decent public transport and RIDE A FUCKING BICYCLE. It rains where you live? Well, DRESS FOR IT or TAKE A TRAIN. In the town where you live, agitate for light rail, trolleys and suchlike.
Make it happen. Hybrids are NOT a solution - they are just a less (and not very less) heinous face on a cancerous blight. The solution is energy curtailment and population reduction. I say, "Live it, or live with it.
It's a bit like having bees live inside your head, but it's a really good BUZZ.
RS
Re:The "only advantage" argument: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a neat trick. Whenever you hear someone mention a problem - you define the "real problem" as their complaint. It both gives you a specific person to target as the problem causer, and makes the solution really simple: get them to shut up.
Unfortunately, sometimes when people complain they have good reason. When that happens, your system fails.
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:2, Insightful)
May I just say,
fuuuuucccckkkk yoooouuuuuuu.
Oh, and see if you can downgrade to a smaller sized garbage can for pickup, that IS the advantage of recycle, if it wasn't for recycle my family would have well over 3 huge trash cans every other week of garbage to throw out.
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:2, Insightful)
Most people realize this, and believe it or not, they sometimes make a decision without obsessing over how to enter it into an account book. Perhaps you ought to try it.
Re:So like... (Score:2, Insightful)
Ah, the Hummers. I have an idea for those people: They should be drafted and sent to Iraq. Why should somebody else risk their lives for their gasoline?
I hate to be a smartarse... (Score:3, Insightful)
Or, if that's too much exercise, how about an electric scooter [evtamerica.com]? Top speed 30mph, range of maybe 30 miles, costs you 15 cents to recharge from flat.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
The UK has a population density of 250 people per square kilometre compared to 32 in the US, and most of our city centres are many hundereds of years old, which basically means that our streets are quite a bit thinner than yours and there's more cars on 'em. Many people in cities (including
myself) don't have off-street parking so it's a case of trying to find a space on the street fairly close to your house.
That coupled with a road tax related to engine size and petrol (sorry, gas) costing close to $6/gallon means that people just don't buy the behemoths that you see on US roads. The closest it tends to get are large 4x4s like [volvocars.co.uk] these [bmw.co.uk] ones [landrover.com] that would be dwarfed by your American SUVs.
I've got a Toyota Corolla Verso [toyota.co.uk], which has up to seven seats to fit my family of six, and yet is only 14 feet long and has a 1.8 litre engine. If need to haul stuff, I can put all the seats down which creates quite a large space in the back. If I need to haul something really big, I'll just hire a van. Sure, it'd be nice not to have to do that, but have something big for everyday driving? In London? Forget about it!
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So like... (Score:3, Insightful)
You pretty much HAVE to have a suberban? Jesus christ, what a load of self-serving bullshit. Unless the seven people you're hauling around are Marines and you're in a combat zone, you don't need a fucking Suburban. If your kids can't deal with anything else, you're raising a bunch of pansy-assed prima donnas with an over-active sense of entitlement.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd appreciate it if you would justify to me why you're wearing out the roads faster, the ones I pay for with my tax dollars. Until there are higher registration fees for heavier vehicles, SUV drivers are getting subsidized by the rest of us.
And that doesn't even touch the global warming issue.
SUV affect and occupy public space (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hybrid cars aren't any of these things. They're a waste of resources, a waste of tax dollars (subsidies!), and worst of all - they aren't that much more efficient than an economy sedan. Big whoop."
Using the word 'whacko' immediately discredits your post. Your feelings/opinions are clearly defined. Using the term 'big whoop' seriously questions your age and/or maturity.
My wife's Honda Insight has a lifetime fuel economy of 61 MPG for over 120,000 miles. What economy sedan gets that fuel economy? None. My wife also reduced her fuel costs per month from $240 to $80. But, the main reason she bought it is because she cares about the environment. The Honda Insight is also an SULEV. The fuel cost savings were a great benefit. If it was safe to do so, both her and I would ride our bikes to work, but we cannot. If it was all about the money, she would have considered buying a VW TDI with similar fuel economy. There are absolute and definable benefits to owning and driving a Hybrid.
That's great. But what you have to understand is that your feelings are just that - your feelings. No one else is obligated to feel the same way you do about "the Earth", and most people are going to make the rational economic choice rather than the irrational one.
If you want people to join you in saving the planet, you're going to have to show them how it personally benefits them, most likely by putting cash back in their wallets. Telling them it'll "help the ecology" or some such ephemeral rot isn't going to impress them.
That is also false. Hybrids were beginning to become popular before the recent gas cost increases. And they will continue to remain popular even after Iraqi/Alaskan/etc. oil starts flowing into the US in the near future. In this case, your feelings/opinions are not based on fact. And what you believe is 'rational' and 'irrational' is completely subjective. Your views have already been clearly defined. It does not mean anyone else shares your feelings/opinions nor does it make them any more vaild.
To share a point, EVERYWHERE my wife and I drive in her Honda Insight, we get a ton of questions a praise from complete strangers everywhere we stop. Roughly 99% of them were in the process of saving to buy one, talking to a Toyota dealership for a Prius (which currently has a 6 month waiting list from the factory), or are planning on owning one in the next 1-2 years.
Also, not everyone in the world is selfish. There are people who believe in doing what is right, not just what benefits only them.
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Big houses, big cars, big families != valid (Score:2, Insightful)
Every human added to the world uses resources - your family is a case in point. You have 7 in the group so your house must be bigger and you need a monster SUV to take everyone for trips. Fewer folks = less demand on the environment = good.
Do you REALLY need to haul around a boat to have fun? Boats are uber-gas hogs so now you're driving a monster truck and hauling a gas guzzling , pollution (air and noise) spewing recreational vehicle out into the wilderness where peace and quiet should be what we seek. How about a couple of canoes/kayaks and a couple of tents - might that work? Might you not have some fun doing that also and teach your kids it's possible to have fun without making quite such a big footprint?
Sorry, big car is 'valid' for your case just isn't working out for me.
Having said that, it is certainly your right to have as large a family as you want, buy whatever toys you need, and live your life by your definitions. Eventually, resources will dry up and we'll be forced to make hard decisions where hard isn't what to pay for gas.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
Because you are polluting the air that I breathe, because it's people with your attitude who are impacting the climate I have to live in, and so forth. Your right to do as you please ends, for one thing, where you start hurting others.
Reminds me of the old Texas saying (I realize Bush doesn't adhere to this so piss off): Leave me the hell alone and I'll leave you the hell alone.
Good. Great. I'm all for it. Now could you please move to another planet (or show me one I can relocate to, preferably one that has all the amenities of our little blue ball of dirt, like breathabe atmosphere, ecosystem, close to 1g of gravity, magnetic field to help keep the solar wind out, preferable somewhere close by that the move doesn't take half a millenium).
What, you can't ? Geee.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Insightful)
And of course, size=safety is a total fallacy. Size=weight=bigger bang when you hit something. And in a car like the Crown Victoria, which seems to have been completely unaffected by the last 30 years or so of progress in car design, I wouldn't be too confident that it'll crumple in a passenger-friendly way if I stuck it in a wall. Most fairly small cars are incredibly safe these days - check out the Euro-NCAP [euroncap.com] tests to see how our silly little European econoboxes cope with being flung at walls and stuff, and all whilst getting hybrid-style fuel ecnonomy out of their diesel engines.
Not having a go at you personally, you understand, I just don't see the point of these cramped, inefficient, slow, thirsty behemoths in this day and age.
Re:So like... (Score:3, Insightful)
Drive what ever you want, but take a moment to think about how it will affect more than just you. We wouldn't need so many laws and regulations if individuals gave the larger group a thought every once in a while.
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:3, Insightful)
We got taxes for everything here. You would love it.
Missing the Point (Score:0, Insightful)
You know what? All that bullshit about being decades away from some magic technology that will enable us to be ecologically sustainable is just that - bullshit. We have many forms of public transit, small fuel efficient cars and god forbid, our own two feet for getting around. We also know how to make homes that are passively heated and cooled, we have energy efficient heat pumps, we have wind turbines and solar for electricity, we have lots of knowledge and technology to make energy usage more efficient, we have white LEDs for lighting, etc, etc. Hell, I'd like to see how much power would be saved just by turning out lights that aren't really needed.
You know what the biggest cause of environmental destruction of all types is? Suburbs. Live in a suburb, need more fuel to heat (stand-alone buildings lose way more heat than multi-dwelling units), need a car to get around AND, for a topper, let's pave over all the wilderness areas to make them. They're also WAY more expensive to service with municipal services like garbage collection, power, water, sewer, school bussing, snow plowing, etc, etc.
I would love to see a calculation somewhere that factors in all of these true costs of living in a subdivision, plus the average $7000/year it cost to own a car (typically two per household. Then, with that number, I'd like to see what kind of public transit system could service everybody in the nice new community that could be created.
Oh wait, I know why that won't work now - there's so many guns and so much violence around that people are too scared to be in actual physical proximity to each other, so everyone has to drive their own personal tank. Not to mention that there's a growing lack of respect for other humans, so people are increasingly obnoxious and less desirable to live in close proximity to anyway.
Until the North American love affair with the suburb ends, environmental sustainability is not even within sight.
And just a question for thought - do you think the world would be a better place if the 100billion US (or whatever it was) spent on weapons and bombs, the 26559 iraqi civilans killed, 1846 US soldiers killed and 13877 injured so far, and the medical costs associated with them that the war in Iraq has cost had been spent towards making infrastructure improvements, efficiencies and education instead of securing foreign oil? But that's a different issue, I guess... no wait - it isn't, is it?
Re:So like... (Score:3, Insightful)
It may not be as nice or as easy as having all your own gear or just traveling with your group - but that is also a lifestyle choice.
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:5, Insightful)
The free market won't do it, but those are real costs that a "rational" person would pay (unless it is voluntary, thus allowing freeloaders).
The free market would work perfectly fine for garbage disposal costs. The problem is we don't have a free market, we have a government run system which charges people based on things fairly unrelated to their costs.
But you're right, most people are too short-sighted to do it unless you give them an economic incentive.
Well, most people are too short-signed to do it even if you do give them an economic incentive. Most people aren't going to recycle just because they save $1/month in garbage hauling fees. So their time must not be worth the savings.
Anyway, going back to the hybrid vs. all-gas car question, I don't think there's a clear winner with regard to which is better for the environment and society. Sure, you don't directly pollute quite as much, and you don't create quite as much CO2. But people had to spend quite a bit more time and energy to create the product, and the environmental impact of the disposal is a bit more. Even if we assume that environmental pollution is everything - and it isn't (we could have a much cleaner environment if got rid of all cars, went back to farming, etc.) - I don't think there's even a clear-cut winner for that. Battery production and disposal has a big impact on the environment, as well as all the other production and disposal of the extra features of the car. In the end which is more important environmentally probably comes down to how much you drive the car. But if you're a big environmentalist you probably don't drive that much anyway.
Besides all that, environmental impact is not the only factor in impact on society. When you add in the intangibles like more free time the auto workers had to spend with their family instead of building you a hybrid, I think the true cost is fairly well represented by the sticker cost. This is especially true because gasoline is already taxed. That's another factor there, too. By using more gas you're contributing more to society monetarily.
If you really want to spend $6000 bettering the environment, I've gotta believe there are a lot better ways to do it than buying a hybrid car. Buy and plant 100 trees. Or donate the money to an environmental group. The possibilities are endless.
Re:So like... (Score:3, Insightful)
They're still here. The problem is that unlike you, they may be real libertarians. That means they believe both aspects of libertarianism: freedom and personal responsibility.
These libertarian have a problem with SUVs because the SUV drivers are not held responsible for the extra damage they do to the roads, the extra pollution they put into the air and the additional safety hazard the pose to other drivers. In some states, their burden of responsibility is actually reduced because the SUVs are so heavy they qualify as commercial trucks.
I wouldn't have a single problem with SUV drivers if they would take responsibility for their actions.
Re:Big houses, big cars, big families != valid (Score:1, Insightful)
You know, I started reading that and thought how this could be an entertaining sarcastic post. Until I read the next few paragraphs and discovered you were dead serious.
Baffling. An "earth-friendly" family size? Baffling.
He's not really getting 80 mpg (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:So like... (Score:2, Insightful)
but hey...its your own business right. just invade another of those terroristic countries with loads of oil if it gets to expensive/rare.
Re:So like... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm no "environmentalist whacko", but why NOT drive a car that saves you gas money and is better for the world around you?
Now that hybrids actually perform reasonably well, my only remaining concern would be maintenance. I can't imagine its cheap to have one worked on. I expect that will get better as hybrids increase in popularity.
Re:So like... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:2, Insightful)
Whoa, that's the best philosophy ever. I'm going to start adopting it right now. For example, I like money, so the rational economic thing to do would be to stab people and take their money. Perfect.
Sure, they probably want to stay alive, but their feelings are just that -- their feelings. Telling me I have a responsibility not to go around murdering people or some such ephemeral rot doesn't impress me either, show me how it's going to put cash in my wallet and then I'll do it.
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So like... (Score:3, Insightful)
Your polluting the air I breathe as well. After all why do people need computers at home that suck up electricity and such?
One persons selfish ideals are anothers excesses.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
Until you get completely off the electricty grid, never go anywhere in a car, and stop using consumer goods of any kind, take your smart assed high and might eco bullshit and stuff it. You, my arrogant and self righteous friend, are just as guilty as the rest of us.
YOU are polluting as well. Not as much maybe, but then again maybe you do in ways that are not as visible as an SUV.
If you have a car you are polluting as well. If you use electricity (obvious that your computer does at least) you are polluting the air and screwing the climate. If you use mass transit you are consuming resources that lead to pollution. If you buy food from a grocery store the packaging and transportation of that food causes pollution too. If you have anything made out of plastic, paper, or metal that you did not craft by your own hand in the back yard, then you are contributing to pollution and climate change.
Screaming down someone who wants to drive a SUV while you and the rest of the world continue to pollute is just plain moronic. You are creating a scapegoat to attack that makes you feel better about yourself, but that has little impact on anything else, least of all pollution.
Get used to it folks. If you like this consumer based society we have built with the cars and computers and electric lights and rapid transit and grocery stores and pharmacies all the rest of the shit we are all used to then you are going to be a polluting, environment destroying climate changer, just like the SUV driver.
Since I don't see people falling off of the electric grid in droves and shunning this modern lifestyle you had better buy some shorts and a few Hawiian shirts. It's gonna get alot hotter around here.
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:2, Insightful)