Sony and Toshiba Give Up On Unified DVD Format

HoTiCE_ is one of several to let us know, Reuters is reporting Sony and Toshiba have apparently given up efforts to develop a unified format for next-generation DVDs. The two companies had opened up negotiations but they fell through due to time constraints on new products from both groups.

My Prediction

[Gotung]

With the relatively low level of HDTVs out there, neither new format is going to catch on. People will just continue buying DVDs.

Good

[i_should_be_working]

I like competition. Maybe one of them won't be DRM'd up the ass.

Wishfull thinking, I know...

Whatever

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet that within two years we'll have drives that can read/write both HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

Bad news for us

[Quickdart]

Great now we get a second formar war on out hands. The first with DVD +/- R was bad enough, but it only appllied to people with burners. Having to entirely seperate formats to the next generations of DVD's is going to piss people off to no end.

ps3

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares, the ps3 all but makes it a moot argument. The adoption rate of that particular player makes HD-DVD a foregone conclusion.

Just flip a coin!

[ThatGeek]

I often feel that it's better to have a mediocre standard than no standard at all. No one is going to buy until one format is dominant...

If they had just done some kind of binding arbitration or even picked one format randomly, they'd be rolling in dough. Consumers would be "forced" to upgrade (yet again) to a new standard format.

Instead, no one upgrades, and the companies miss out on potential profit.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Same as SACD/DVD-Audio

[hashts]

This issue is strinkingly similar to the Hi-Def Audio industry where you have two competing standards which are incompatible with each other.

Everyone loses, esp. the consumers who backed either format. For everyone else, CD's are still good enough and market penetration for either of the new audio standards is VERY low. Same exact thing will happen here, DVD will be good enough for just about everyone, and only the Videophiles will be jumping on HD-DVD or Blu-ray.

How sad when companies fail to understand history will repeat itself with the HD video market.

Re:Well that certainly makes the decision easier.

[Mindwarp]

I pick..... neither!

I should probably clarify that statement before I get branded as a troll: I will pick whichever format will not automatically assume that I'm a criminal and therefore prevent me from watching a true HD picture on my 3 year old $3500 HD television set which, of course, does not have an HDMI interface.

Hence the original comment.

Re:My Prediction

[sik0fewl]

Yeah.. and DVD-Rs and DVD+Rs and DVD-RWs and DVD+RWs.

You're right.. two competing formats out there at the same time will never work.

Re:One word:

[XFilesFMDS1013]

Right, because a unified standard upon which every company could stand, and one which would allow a customer to buy a DVD and have it play in whatever DVD player they had, is a bad thing.

Re:It's Like a Presidential Election...

[MBCook]

Ah. But unlike a Presidential election (where you must choose a new president), we DO have a 3rd choice: DVD.

Consumers can simply keep buying DVDs and ignore the new formats, thus sending a no-confidence vote. Now we have some time, because most people can't watch HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray discs because of their analog TVs. The picture looks exactly like that of a DVD (or maybe a Superbit DVD). So most people have no reason to buy one of those formats yet. This is the time to get the message out there about how crippled they are (remind people about the no fast-forwarding on DVDs as an example, no one likes that and EVERYONE has seen it).

One the formats start to get real sales from normal people, the battle will be lost (except through the courts, which will probably be a no starter thanks to congress's "Lifetime + 30,000 years" copyright policy).

For all the geek interest we have in the new formats, as a DVD replacement they are as significant as DVDs were in 1997/8: none.

Re:Bad news for us

[slavemowgli]

It happened before, though, with VHS vs. Beta, for example; and also, with the introduction of any new standard, there always is a period where content is available in both formats.

So... content *will* be available in both formats, and it will make little difference what kind of device customers buy. However, the format war will slow the overall adoption of *both* formats. DVDs and CDs will still be around for a long while to come, and I wouldn't be surprised if, eventually, there'll be devices that simply handle both formats and thus avoid the incompatibility issues altogether (just like there's combined CD/DVD±R/W/RW readers/writers now, for example).

That's all assuming that there'll be no major DRM goof-ups, of course. If either format makes it too difficult for people to access their legitimately-bought content, then it'll lose out big time, and the manufacturers know this. Considering that there's also pressure from the other side (the "content industry") to include as much DRM as possible, though, it's gonna be interesting to see how things turn out.

Re:ps3

[Eric Smith]

how is sony going to cram a bluray player, ps3 multi core cell processor, a video card similar to a geforce 7800, usb, ieee, hard drive, etc for it's purported 5-600$ or so price tag.

Of the items you list, only the hard drive is expensive. Are you sure there's going to he a hard drive in the standard unit (as opposed to an option)?

In any case, even with a hard drive, the BOM cost should easily be under $500. If they are trying to compete aggressively with Microsoft, they'll set the wholesale price near or even below the manufacturing cost, and plan to make their money on game sales and licensing.

That business model is nothing new to the game console industry; in fact, it's one of the big reasons that they try to lock up the console to prevent unauthorized (i.e., unlicensed) games from being developed and sold by other parties.

Obligatory Simpsons quote

[vjzuylen]

Kang: "Go ahead, throw your vote away! Muahahahahah!"

Re:Bad news for us

[VFVTHUNTER]

Actually, this is a good thing. Now we can sit back and wait for all of the DVD-Jon's of the world to get their hands on them, and then simply adopt the format whose DRM is broken first. The format with the better DRM will be the loser here.

Setback for DRM. Good indeed !

[Anonymous Coward]

If there were a unified format, there would be nothing to stop the new DRM from taking a foothold. Remember the "self-destruct" feature to be implemented on all new players ? Strangely enough, this format war is good for consumers.

Giant Screwup

[the eric conspiracy]

With sales of HDTV's skyrocketing ( > 25% of all new TVs) the opportunity for HD fromat DVD is knocking.

But what did we get? A mess. Many consumers will take one look at this and throw up their hands. The smarter consumers will even take it a step further and back off from buying regular format DVDs because they would rather wait for that new title in the higher definition format.

This is a total foot-shot.

Re:My Prediction

[rogabean]

Yes, but *most* current dvd players will read any of those formats.

apples to oranges.

Re:My Prediction

[sik0fewl]

Exactly my point. What's to stop manufacturers from including support for both standards?

Re:My Prediction

[ImaLamer]

If VHS tapes are any indicator, people will be buy DVD's 8 years after either one of these formats hit the streets.

A lot of retailers have dropped VHS, but Wal-Mart still caries them and they are the biggest retailer around. I even know a well-off kid with HDTV and all of the latest computer "toys" who still buys VHS movies for some stupid reason. Besides price I see no difference.

Think about how long you (the collective you) were still buying tapes after CD's were released. Being that DVD players are being factory installed in some cars and are everywhere it will be a while before people get rid of DVD. Shit, DVD players are the fastest (or highest?) selling consumer device category of all time (For trivia purposes, I believe the original GameBoy still holds the record for highest selling electronic consumer product of all time).

I've finally decided on a format.

[AbRASiON]

I hate wars like this blu-ray vs HD-DVD, I hate them a LOT.

While both have their pros and cons, ultimately we the consumer are going to be the ones shafted until they get their shit together. (I don't even need to go into why we'll be shafted if there's 2 formats, readers of this comment will know already)

Problem is, even when they DO get their shit together and decide on a single format, we will STILL get shafted!

If it's not DRM for the files on the disc itself, it's these new rumours of no component HD support, since it can't effectively enforce DRM.
In other words go and replace your "old" HDTV which is missing those plugs. (sorry guys buy my Toshiba 36" is 6 months old and I'm not upgrading)
While you're at it, go replace that component receiver too, it doesn't have HDMI or DVI inputs....

The manufactuers also seem to be thinking the uptake on blu-ray and HD-DVD is going to be quick, they are very very wrong.
DVD took off well because it did SO MANY things better than VHS - on a huge huge level.
The disc is (theoretically) stronger.
You can fast fwd through 60 minutes instantly - no need to re-wind.
They put cute little menu's and extra's on the disc.
You can drop a second audio or third or fourth audio channel - giving you commentary or language options (easier for manufacturers convienience then too)
Quality improvements in audio and video.

Overall DVD, besides the convienience of easy recording is better than VHS in many many ways.

The new HD formats however, they are not so simple, these suckers might have a better picture but the disc size / shape convienience is the same, the fast forward / rewind is the same, menu's will likely be similar or the same.
Ultimately all they will do is either offer MORE content or better quality, which isn't a bad thing but it's no gargantuan leap like DVD to VHS

So I've thought a lot about this and I've come to the decision of being a bit of a neathanderal and sticking with the "old" format so I'm sticking with DVD.

DVD still offers a picture we've all been completely happy with for the past what 5? 8 years and a high definition, fine pitch set isn't going to do bad things for your DVD's.

DVD still offers DDigital audio and DTS audio, both of which are quite damn good with decent quality speakers and HT gear.

DVD is easily backed up, my neighbours have kids and trust me those disney dvd's DO get used a heck of a lot, sure you should teach your kids to look after stuff but saving your ass 20 or 30$ on a disney DVD from scratches = smart (and fair use as far as I'm concerned)

DVD is fairly easy to author your own discs.

DVD is small enough to backup a couple of movies on the laptop for that holiday, so you don't lose the discs AND save battery power only having the HDD working while playing them

Infact the list goes on and on, but ultimately - I'm pretty darn happy with the quality of my movies on my TV from DVD's - and the majority of the ones I watch are DVD-shrunk'd so to speak, let alone originals making use of the full 8.5gb for better quality.
Finally, although it might be just a placebo effect but running my DVD's through my modified Xbox in 1280x720 it kind of upsamples them and makes the old content look even better.

Why on earth would I buy in to this DRM rubbish - I look forward to it sinking, I hope Sony, MS, Toshiba and the whole damn industry end up learning an expensive lesson.

Re:Dual format?

[skreeech]

Lots of people would prefer a PS3 over a next gen DVDplayer. The cheapass's not wanting to buy another dvd player don't matter. The cheapasses won't buy any dvd player because they'll be using their ps3.

Re:One word:

[croddy]

considering that most of these companies have come out strongly in favor of DRM and a bunch of useless crap like Java based menus... yes. this *is* good, precisely because it will increase the chances that *both* formats will fail -- particularly now that a significant number of customers have converted their collections over to DVD, and these discs would offer practically nothing except to a small percentage of high-resolution big-screen types.

Two is better than one

[frovingslosh]

Better to have two standards technically uncompromised by a need to play with the other side and let the market decide which they want, than one designed by committee. No one gets hurt except the early adopters, and they have far too much money anyway.

Re:My Prediction

[rolfwind]

I think people will buy DVDs much longer than 8 years after the new format.

The questions consumers will ask is "What is the benefit over the old system and is it worth the $X00 to buy a new player for it?"

DVDs had significant benefits - but the kicker probably was in the end the CD-like ability. No more long stretches of minutes spent fastforwarding nor rewinding - you can go to the scene you want as fast as you can access the menus. That and the space savings.

But what is the obvious benefit of these new discs? Crippling DRM? High Definition when HDTVs are still the exception not the norm? Multiple movies on one disc for a lower price? (YEAH RIGHT!) What exactly?

My prediction is that DVDs will probably be uncontested king till 2015 due to entrenchment and that the cool new next generation devices are struggling to hard to pander to the movie studios with absurd DRM schemes.

My other prediction is that "next" medium will be delivered not by need for HD movies but by the demands of computer consumers needing a storage devices that saves more gigabytes than DVDs can possibly hope for.

This device will be free of or have relatively easy DRM and HD movies will eventually be delivered in this format because the other formats companies try to make will be recieved like betamax/laserdisc.

Movies will also start being offered officially over the internet way before then.

Re:It's Like a Presidential Election...

[noidentity]

"Which candidate will we choose? The one with restrictive DRM or the other one with restrictive DRM?"

What do you expect from a Digital Restrictions Management system?

Re:My Prediction

[rolfwind]

"I think people will buy DVDs much longer than 8 years after the new format."

Not if content owners like Sony stop selling them... but I just said 8 years because DVD-Video was introduced in 1997.

Hmmm.... Sony would be missing out on an awfully big market if they just stop. More than one Wolf in the chicken coop^_^

Also, it's not like a Video Game system - movies are easily sellable on the next-generation and current generation system.

I imagine they stopped selling cassettes mainly because people stopped buying them - but I remember music cassettes still being sold for the new albums in 2000 (!, do they still? Haven't been to a CD store since then.), many, many years after CDs came out.

People still bought cassettes for various reasons (car only played cassette, walkman the same thing, etcetera). Even stuff like self-help tapes came automatically in cassette until a few years back (annoyingly). I think the nail in the coffin was when recordable cds got popular......

I think the lesson is newer doesn't automatically mean new standard - new mediums need to find their audience at the right time and price point and fill a vacuum or they'll be passed over.

This is the lesson from Laserdisc to Sony's minidisc (which did well in Japan).

Re:ps3

[jericho4.0]

Admitadly, Sony has stretched the truth in the past, but there is no way that they will not put bluray in the ps3. Sony needs bluray to succeed.

Re:Good

[dohboy]

I like competition. Maybe one of them won't be DRM'd up the ass.

Wishfull thinking, I know...

WTF makes this (Score:5, Insightful)?

Re:One word:

[Anonymous Coward]

Would that be like how they learned their lesson with VHS/Betamax? Or more like how they learned it with SACD/DVD-Audio?

Re:Just flip a coin!

[brunes69]

You see, even in this case, when it comes to not taking the standard (like in the DVD case), us consumers will have to pay for drives which reads both kinds of disks. Which means we have to fork out more money for those drives, and those companies manufacturing those drives lose profits, which make them raise prices even more.

Yeah, because I know my DVD burner I just bought that can burn DVD+-RW/DVD+-R/DVD-RAM/CD-RW (that's 6 formats BTW, not just two) was way over priced.

I mean 40 dollars??? HELL it cost at least as much as an evenings dinner. How can anyone expect to pay that???

</sarcasm>

Ah, but Confucious he say:

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

"Screw early adopters, and late adopters will not come."