Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD Not Over Yet

samkass writes "Here is a good summary of the latest technical wheeling-and-dealing between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Among things that were new to me: the addition of a "red" 9GB HD format to Blu-Ray that would make initial Blu-Ray content (that fits) even cheaper than HD-DVD. Also, more discussion about managed copy (AACS, BD Plus, and ROM Mark) and iHD (HD-DVD) vs BD-J/Java (Blu-Ray)."

BluRay will win says TFA

[bodger_uk]

From TFA: Some analysts who have been following the saga have already predicted a winner. Ted Schadler, vice president at Forrester Research, released a report that proclaimed, "Blu-ray Will Win a Pyrrhic Victory Over HD-DVD." Schadler says he's long believed that Blu-ray held the edge due to its superior capacity and the fact that Sony's PlayStation 3 will play Blu-ray movie discs. Oh really, and MS support via the 360 for HD-DVD won't have a cancelling effect on this? Oh and Warner will release content on both formats? Well, there's a surprise! Did anyone expect them to pick a side and alienate a potential market? Hmm, slightly cynical today methinks!!

Can Blue Ray (Red) play on existing computers now?

[NigelJohnstone]

"The resulting disc will be encoded with a high-definition video codec, and though it will be a red-laser disc (not a blue-laser disc as used by the other formats within the Blu-ray Disc specifications), it will only play back in Blu-ray Disc players and recorders. Even though vendors will be able to manufacture the disc on existing DVD production lines, it is clearly not the same as an HD-DVD. (One of HD-DVD's strengths is its purported ability to be produced at a low cost on existing, albeit modified, DVD production lines)."

If it's existing DVD production, is it readable by *existing* DVD players like those in a computer. In other words can I get a codec and play it in a PC, (even if I need to update the DVD firmware to do it)?
Sure the codec means it won't immediately be playable on the DivX/MPEG4/DVD boxes, but can it play on a PC?

If they can do that, that would be a HD-DVD killer.

Yes, it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

The contest is over. Precisely because it won't *really* matter. While all these corporations squabble endlessly over proprietary formats, hardware specs, marketing schemes, and temporary alliances, the fact is that the true future of digital content distribution WILL be online. So all this cacophony is for a temporary technology. A few people will buy some discs and fewer hardware players during a very short period. Then, it will be looked back upon as having been over before it began.

And once that pan flashes, a few people in management are going to be revealed as dumbasses for misjudging technology.

Crack that firmware!

[Dachannien]

Given Sony's track record, [slashdot.org] I wonder if we'll find, for example, LAME binaries in the firmware of their Blu-Ray drives.

One irony, though, is that the DMCA would prevent software authors from accessing the firmware to make the determination as to whether their own copyrights were being violated.

Re:Crack that firmware!

[interiot]

Or, even more likely, Vista's NGSCB [wikipedia.org] will allow Sony to hide their code inside the secure computing base, where normal users won't be able to access it. And authors will absolutely have to violate the DMCA to look inside it.

It's kind of ironic that MS is wagging their finger at Sony now, because when Vista comes out, Microsoft is going to build that feature in standard (eg. in order to view a certain piece of enthralling media, you have to let some super-secret code run on your computer, with the OS doing everything it can to hide what it's doing from you).

More draconian DRM

[l33t-gu3lph1t3]

If Sony's new tech patent that allows discs to "lock in" to the first device they play on makes it into Bluray, you can bet your ass I'll be buying HD-DVD. While one could argue "but PS3 is going to be bluray!" I'll argue back that PS3 isn't looking all that hot these days. Personally, I'll be buying the format whose copy-protection is most flawed. I intend to keep my movies for longer than 5 years, and I don't think the solution to bit-rot is to buy the damn discs again in 10 years.

What is the point of either format??

[YoYoY]

It seems to me that the touted benefits of either system (at least as far as films go) are outweighed by the drawbacks: using the carrot of high definition content to distract the consumer while both standards beat us all with the stick of DRM and inflated costs (you think that Blu-Ray or HD-DVD discs will be sold at the same price as DVDs????).

The only reason that I can see for upgrading (not that we will have the choice) would be if either standard better consumer value:

No more £60 box-sets (you'd never pay that for one disc - I reckon publishers will use the excuse of high definition etc to continue using multiple discs to cover TV series)

Use some of the spare capacity on the discs to back-up the data in other areas (hopefully making them more durable / resistant to scratches - no more skipping discs!)

I'm not against Blu-Ray or HD-DVD per se, as far as I'm concerned technology progression is a great thing, I just can't help thinking that either format will fail to benefit consumers as fully as it might. Also, will either standard be available (soon) in an R/W format?

Re:How about something DRM-Free?

[ILikeRed]

HD-DVD contains Microsoft's DRM software (iHD) (not that Blueray is any better, although their DRM software uses Java)... so you are saying you trust Microsoft to allow you fair use rights?

This is what the fighting is about - these companies could care less about the formats, and very little about the final cost per disk, this is a fight to see who gets to provide the DRM software on your media.

boycott for now, there are alternatives

[zeke2.0]

I favor the boycott approach to both formats for now.
There are several formats that can be used to create HD content on existing DVD disks.
Windows HiDef Media
Divx
Quicktime (via h.264/mpeg4)
H.264 (mpeg4)
H.264 is the future of HD broadcast and you can fit an entire 2 hour HD (720p or 1080i/p) movie on existing DVD disks with room to spare
JVC already has a player out that plays all these formats including m2t files (HDV in mpeg2 format)using existing DVD writable formats.
We should simply bypass Sony and Toshiba and finally use our PCs and home theater servers the way we want to.
And it would all be legal.

Funny thing is, for once, MS is on our side, even if it's for the wrong reasons.
here is the link to the jvc SRDVD-100U

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/features.jsp?fe ature_id=01&tree=&itempath=&model_id=MDL101546 [jvc.com]

Has built in ethernet and streaming capabilities (movies, audio...). Pretty cool, but may be to expensive to some.

Actually...

[CarpetShark]

Actually it is associated with some nasty DRM. But the alternative, HD-DVD, is the one Microsoft REALLY wants to use instead. I'd almost take Sony's offering based on that alone. Luckily, Blu-Ray is also technically superior.

What pull does HP have?

[SuperKendall]

A lot of the article is about how HP is pushing for Blu-Ray to drop the Java based menu system and go with iHD (Microsoft's menu format), in addition to making sure Blu-Ray supports managed copy (which someone later in the article claims it does already and extra layers will not prevent that from working).

While it's not much of a surprise to see HP licking Microsofts boots and demanding people use the MS menu standard, I am surprised that anyone in the Blu-Ray consortium would take them very seriously. In terms of support for the format the people that really matter are the studios as they are the ones that will be providing content compelling enough to make or break the system.

Now Warner Brothers arguing for support of the BD-9 disc - that I could see happening, and would probably help the format gain a little adoption in the short term. I think though in the long term it will slow adoption because too many studios will be tempted to put out overly-compressed releases on BD-9 and not a higher quality feed that needs the storage capacity of the larger BD-25 discs. People will not buy into HD-DVD or Blu-Ray if the benefits are perceived as marginal.

Blu-Ray still has a giant ace in the hole with the PS3 supporting the format, millions of people suddenly having Blu-Ray players will not hurt much at all! And since HD-DVD has pretty much decided to sit out this Christmas season I just can't see HD-DVD player sales ramping up fast ebough to get even close to the volume of PS3 launch day.

It doesn't matter.

[Phreakiture]

People are happy with DVD, and will be for a while yet. I think that this storm will blow over before people become unhappy with DVD. Many do not even realise that their DVDs that they are watching on their HD TVs aren't HD, because they are better than analogue SD.

That said, I will consider HD-DVD or Blu-Ray only when it appears that there is a clear winner, and it is compatible with my TV. Compatible means that it either puts out a 1080i analogue signal on component jacks, or that I am ready to replace my TV for some other reason.

On another front, I noticed that there is now a HD version of Divx ;-). It is capable of storing an HD movie in DVD-sized files.

9Gb BluRay format a great idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

The 9Gb BluRay format a great idea. Think about it.

It is obviously cheaper than making BluRay Discs.
It opens the possibility of using DVD-/+R and RW discs for media.
It holds about 15-30 minutes of HD format data (extrpolating from BluRay HDF moview length:storage ratios)

What posibilities does this size give:
*Short films, Promotonal vides, trailers etc. that are less than 30 minutes can be produced cheaply.
*Perhaps single episodes of TV shows could be fit on the 9Gb size.

What possibilities does the use of exisiting DVD burners writting to this format give:
*End user / consumer making and burning their own HD home movies from their HD camcorders.
Consumer HD camcorders coudl be made blueRay comaptible but use cheaper DVD type burners and cheap 9Gb media limtied to 30minute 9Gb recording.
*Media types can subsitute long video files with short "thumbs" and quickly trial new/advanced interactive content and menu structures without costly Bluray burners.

Re:Rootkit Included?

[HD Webdev]

I don't understand why people are given moderation points who don't know how to use it. As of this moment, 50% of moderators think that the parent comment is overrated. I say the moderators are in over their head. With all the recent controversy with Sony I don't see why is it overrated to question their future technology?

Actually, they know how to work the moderation system very well.

That's why the pro-sony people will marked a post "overrated" rather than "troll". "Overrated" dodges the chance it will get fixed by metamoderation.

Blu-Ray allows just as much freedom of copying

[SuperKendall]

Read the article, Blu-Ray allows just as much freedom in copying media (which is to say a vrey protected version of same).

Consider that Apple and Sony and HP and Dell are all in the Blu-Ray consortium, whereas over on the HD-DVD side there's Microsoft and... I'm not sure who else but not many other major tech companies. Which format do you think is going to be more able to allow copying between many different devices from different manufacturers (again all protected of course) instead of just between different Microsoft products?

If your idea of freedom is being able to buy whatever form of Microsoft box you like to play media - count me out!

I'm sure neither of course will let you play media on Linux, so to say you prefer one over the other is to proclaim allegence to only one particular brand of salt to the exclusion of all others.