High-Tech RepoMan 452
PlayfullyClever writes "A new gizmo is upping the odds that even the most hard-knock customer will come up with the car payment. Hooked into the ignition system, the gadget comes in a handful of versions with one common conclusion:
No pay, no start.
It's worked wonders at Norfolk's Patriot Auto Sales, where nearly every car that drives off the lot is outfitted with a PayTeck Smart Box, a system that hands over a five-digit code in exchange for each payment. Come due date, the car won't crank until the customer punches the code into a palm-size keypad wired into the dash.
I would think this "Smart Box" would get hacked way too easily, leaving car companies without their money."
Hmmm.... (Score:5, Informative)
From TFA:
"Buyers sign forms acknowledging the Smart Box, agreeing not to tamper with it and promising to return to the dealership for a free removal after the last payment is made."
That implies that screwing with it in any way will get you into trouble if you get caught. That's not to say that somebody won't try, but it also implies that they have a means of catching you.
Re:What the hell (Score:5, Informative)
There are several competing systems like this (Score:5, Informative)
Sure a saavy mechanic can find the ignition lock out and disable it, but its in the contract that people sign at purchase that they will not disturb it, and is a felony to tamper with it (at least in Tennessee).
He's had a few folks defeat it and stop making payments, but eventually something happens to get the car repo'd and the customer in hot water. He says he's lost a very tiny percentage of the hundreds of cars he's outfitted with the ignition lock out.
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We don't NEED no stinkin' sig
Re:Problem (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.ppsontime.com/news/inc3.gif [ppsontime.com]
Seems this became a common practice long ago.
Re:What the hell (Score:2, Informative)
When you get finance from the car yard, you're actually getting it from a financial institution that the yard has an agreement with. They give the car yard the money, you get the car, and you pay the financial institution, not the car yard.
When I pick up the car, I take the ownership papers down to the government shopfront, pay the stamp duty and get the ownership transferred into my name. Nowhere does the car yard's name, or the finance company's name appear on the new ownership papers. It's my car.
It only becomes the finance company's car if I default on the loan, as it is security towards that loan. The only other place I have to mention the finance company is on my insurance policy - presumably so that if its written off, my insurance company will just pay the finance company the balance directly.
Re:What the hell (Score:2, Informative)
Once you pay for it.
> I'd also point out that even if you need a loan to buy a car you still own that car outright.
Once you pay for it.
> So why the hell should they be allowed to require this?
Because they just let you drive off with a $3000 car after forking over $250.
> I would encourage everybody out there to avoid the whole problem by not buying a car that you need a loan on.
I would encourage everybody out there selling cars to tell people like you to enjoy riding the bus.
> I have never spent more then $2,000 on a car.
Glad to hear it. I hope you enjoyed following Phish around and selling tofu veggie poop nuggets to other unwashed trust-fund hippies.
> And driving cheap ghetto cars allows me to avoid having to pay for expensive collision coverage.
On behalf of those of us who have to pay inflated insurance rates to cover your accidents, eat cock and die.
> Failing that, if you must have a nice car and can't afford to buy it outright, then get the loan for your car from your credit union or local community bank.
Ooh! A local community bank! It's the next best thing to open-source money! Fight the power! Che lives! Play "You Enjoy Myself," you faggots!
> Why the hell should we be doing the auto financing companies any favors?
You shouldn't! Stick it to them! Be mad as hell and don't take it any more! It's not like they're doing anything for *you*, man! FREE HUEY!!
Re:What the hell (Score:3, Informative)
I Developed a Competing System--and learned... (Score:5, Informative)
A few years ago I developed a GPS-based system for tracking vehicles. Long story, but the client's original business plan didn't work--but his sales manager cottoned on to the idea of installing the units in cars at buy-here, pay-here car lots.
I bitched and moaned, and eventually dropped the client--in part because of the liability exposure, and in part because of the general sleaze. But I learned a bunch along the way.
How buy-here, pay-here car lots can do this:
It's simple: when you "purchase" a car from a buy-here, pay-here car lot, you're not buying the car. What you're doing is technically signing a "lease-purchase" contract: you're leasing the car until the final payment is made. That means the car dealer doesn't have a secured interest in the car--he OWNS the car. If you miss a payment, he picks up the car--and you have nothing.
That's dramatically different from a typical car purchase. If you buy a car from a new car dealer--or a reputable used-car lot--you will almost always finance the car. If you finance the car at the dealer (generally not a good idea) you'll sign something that looks like a loan agreement, but is technically called a Retail Installment Sales Contract (RISC). It is a contract to pay for the car over a certain period of time. The dealer then sells that contract to a bank or finance company. Key point: you are buying the car, and signing a contract to pay a loan--securing the loan with the car's title. Suppose you buy a $25,000 car, and put down $5,000 in cash and trade-in on your old car. Suppose you lose your job two weeks later, and can't pay the loan. You tell the bank--they'll be perfectly willing to take the car, liquidate the loan (by selling the car at auction), and give you the difference between what they sell the car for, and the balance on your loan.
With a lease-purchase agreement, it doesn't work that way. The car belongs to the dealer, not to you. If the dealer suckers you into putting money down, you have only the contract language (if any) to guarantee that you'll get anything back if the car is repossessed.
Buy-here, pay-here is a very bad deal
Bottom line: if your credit is so bad that you have to agree to install any kind of automated device to track you or force you to pay, you shouldn't be buying a car. First, you clearly are going to have trouble affording the car. Second, the cars the buy-here, pay-here crooks sell are typically heaps of junk: the cars left over at the auction that nobody wants to buy. A 1992 Ford with 150,000 miles on it isn't just going to require a monthly (or weekly) payment to the dealer--it's going to require a steady stream of parts and repair bills to keep rolling. Your chances of keeping that heap rolling for the two or three years of the "loan" are slim: and if the heap dies, you're still stuck paying credit card interest rates, and you don't have wheels.
Re:What the hell (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What the hell-"/." lawyers. (Score:3, Informative)
It's a little hard to find but I did find this [state.ny.us] on the NYSDMV page.
To quote: "Before you accept the title certificate from the seller, check the front of the title for the names and addresses of lien holders. A lien indicates the current owner owes money on a loan for the vehicle. If a lien is listed on the title, ask the seller to give you the proof the lien has been paid - in most cases, it will be an official lien release from the lender. If proof is not provided, the lien holder could repossess the vehicle from you."
You'll note they use the term "current owner". A lien simply records the fact that somebody might have a security interest in the property. It does not mean they own it. It gives them a legal means of seizing that property if any obligations are not met -- but until they seize it they do not own it.
I'm kind of surprised by the number of people sticking up for these assholes. Why is this any different from RIAA treating their customers like criminals? I sign a contract with my bank to borrow money with a promise to pay that money back. Why the hell should they get to assume that I won't and require me to modify my property?
Will mortgage companies require that you use a keypad locking system on your house that keeps you from leaving/entering if you fall behind on your payments? It also seems rather stupid to disable the car if they miss one payment. Yeah, I'm sure somebody that falls on hard times and misses a payment will find it real easy to make money to catch up on payments when they don't have transportation.
Re:What the hell (Score:3, Informative)
Not New (Score:5, Informative)
The device is quite easy to "hack" if you would even call it that. Its just soldered to the wiring harness and can VERY easily be bypassed. Most customers don't question it because "its a little computer thingy" and its "very complex".
Apart from all that, in the contract, the customer must sign about three pages of forms made up of about 15 signatures from both buyer and co-buyer agreeing to all the terms and conditions regarding the device. Again, our customers never have a problem signing their John Hancock on the line.
About the operation of the device: Currently, the device we use utilizes a "code" system where the customer pays their payment, we give them a 9-digit code from Passtime's website. The code is only good for however many days we set it, then we can set warning days where it will beep upon starting to remind them that their payment is due, and each code has atleast two emergency days that they can use by pressing 999-999-999.
Regardless, it'd be nice if Passtime would give me the freakin' code to generate the Passtime codes so I can integrate it into my software! They protect it quite well, thankfully!
Re:What the hell (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Repossession is not a joke (Score:1, Informative)
Not if the merchant agrees to take payment at a later date.
If I agree to pay $100 now, $300 later, then walk out the store with the xbox and disappear, is that not theft?
Not if the merchant agrees.
If you fail to make your car/mortgage payments, that means you OWE MONEY to the creditor, not that you committed a crime. Owing money isn't a crime. The creditor can sue you for their money, but since suing takes time and money, they would rather repossess the car/house - it's much cheaper than suing. That's way a car loan or mortgage has a repossession clause.
But it isn't theft.
Moneyclips (Score:1, Informative)
Reminds me of Steinbeck's The Pearl.
Re:Great...what's next? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What the hell (Score:3, Informative)
Dont worry folks, this really doesn't apply to us, (Barring you didn't just take advantage of the rapidly closing bankruptcy loopholes John Jay Kramer and Associates can find for you(TM) This device will not show up in our new cars anytime soon, See, cause we have Money, We make our payments on time, have good credit, and respectable companies Want our business, we don't have to beg for it like people who would take advantage of this would.
Sensitivity Disclaimer: Down on your luck geek? Downsized and its not your fault? Had payments that you thought you could make before you were fired? This isn't a rant in your direction, don't get offended. This is for the people who see credit as free cash and other such things.
Not a Harvard Law grad I see (Score:4, Informative)
You need to brush up on your secured credit law bucko. A car loan comes with a security interest in the car. The car belongs to the customer. In no way is failing to pay the loan back "theft," it is default on a loan or, at most, fraud if the person entered into the contract with scienter. It is no more theft than failing to pay one's credit card bill.
The holder of a security interest (the car lender, here) has the right to "self help" in the event of default to satisfy the debt. (He also has the right to proceeds if the owner sells the car to someone else.) This is a difference from "unsecured credit," the best example being a credit card. No matter how much money someone owes on a credit card, the repo man can't come to his house and take some stuff to settle the debt.
In other words, I would bet you five hundred dollars you could not find a single court case where someone was convicted of "theft" for failing to make his car payments. I'm glad you're a fan of the repo man, honorable work, blah blah blah, but like most slashdot posters you don't know much about the law.