Britain to log all vehicle movement 914
dubbayu_d_40 writes "Using a network of cameras that can record license plates, Britain plans to build a database of vehicle movement for police and security services: rollout begins in March. Can't someone just swap/steal/disable the tracking device? Seems to me just another way to track the average citizen and not those wishing to avoid authorities."
Just like gun legislation (Score:5, Insightful)
wow (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems like we are getting closer and closer to that futuristic dystopia and it scares the hell out of me.
Welcome to 1984! (Score:5, Insightful)
I would be interested to see an impact study of this in a couple of years.
I'll guess it'll show to be effective against common crimes, but little else.
I'm opposed to police state measures. I'm not afraid and I see little reason for anyone to be afraid. You have a much better chance of winning the lottery than being killed by terrorism.
The fascists are playing on people's unjustified fears.
Read your own article? (Score:4, Insightful)
What I found most inane was the notion that a vehicle traveling near another vehicle of interest can be incriminated by association. How did they ever come up with THAT idea?
worse than nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
Logging might actually feed the police with false information: I mean it's not a hard to make replicas of plates belonging to someone else... someone with the same kind of car.
That way the terrorists or whatever can actually use the system against the police
So now I'm asking, why put this system up in the first place... only to scare people into quiet submission? Seems that way to me...
sig?
Setting the stage for horrible governments (Score:5, Insightful)
I, for one, am worried about the world my 3-year-old will come to know.
Big whoop (Score:3, Insightful)
The Transparent Society (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Outrage! (Score:2, Insightful)
Why are we discussing this... (Score:0, Insightful)
Why is there not more outrage? Why are impeachment proceedings not beginning this very moment?
Where the fuck did my country go?
So much information... (Score:2, Insightful)
transfered data rate for 1 vehicle = 300kbps
so for 10 million
data rate = (10000000 * 300) / (1000 * 1000 ) gbps = 3000gbps = 3.65 GB/sec
What kind of network infrastructure do you think is needed ?
I think they are out of their minds to even think of doing this. They can very well have police man on every block running after the vehicals instead.
Re:worse than nothing (Score:3, Insightful)
coincidence - Police woman get shot.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Coincidence????
Re:Just never do anything wrong (Score:2, Insightful)
Then tell me what happens when the government's definition of 'wrong' changes to encompass a way of life that YOU hold dear.
Would you still be so dangerously compliant?
Re:Fake license plates... (Score:1, Insightful)
From a black'n'white photo taken at 100 MPH? Probably impossible.
Or you mean when they catch him? Well, then they don't need the license plate anymore (and neither does he).
Re:I've always wondered... (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't be in a hurry. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Outrage! (Score:2, Insightful)
You will get finger printed and a your photo taken for their db.
Re:I'm cool with cameras (Score:5, Insightful)
Until you get pulled in by the police on a murder charge because you happened to be near a murder scene...
I keep seeing broad laws being passed with people saying "well it's ok for them to be really broad because noone will ever abuse them" and then they get abused _every time_.
For example: does shouting "nonsense" in a political debate make you a terrorist? The government seem to think so [bbc.co.uk]. Just days before that happened, the Prime Minister argued that it was ok for the anti-terrorism laws (the same ones used to detain someone for shouting "nonsense") to be so broad because the police would never use them inappropriately.
There are similar examples of abuse of the DMCA, EUCD, PATRIOT Act, etc. I've got nothing to hide either... oh wait, yes I do - I play legally purchased DVDs under Linux and that's illegal.
Re:Welcome to 1984! (Score:4, Insightful)
Transparent better than non-Transparent (Score:2, Insightful)
99% of police, law enforcement officials and judges are honorable people, at least when they enter the profession. The possibility of corruption and injustice, however, is huge. That's why we have open courts in most Western countries. An official's sense of honor and fairness is our first and best line of defense against injustice but it can't be our only. Allowing the public to see how the government treats its citizens can confirm fair justice is being done. While, sites like TheSmokingGun.com that take people's personal problems and turn them in to enteraining human misery, are deplorable, perhaps more deplorable is what might happen if all court cases were closed. How would we know if equal justice was occuring? We wouldn't.
I certainly don't want my fellow citizen's watching me drive to work, or go to the grocery store; just as I don't want my fellow citizen's reading about my embarrasing run in with the law. But the only way to prove to the citizenry that I got treated fairly by the courts is to make sure its open to all to see.
I suppose this will have to be the same for CCTV in the future, lest some people are monitored by the police and prosecuted over every infraction, and others are allowed to commit infractions with impunity.
Thomas Jefferson When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Re:coincidence - Police woman get shot.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead of going for the outright conspiracy theory, consider that authorities were just waiting for the right opportunity to spring their plan into action. If there's a high profile shooting, roll out the surveillance...
I'm sure some of this went on with 9/11 - if there's a terrorist attack, roll out freedom limiting changes to the law, attack Iraq, etc...
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with US gun control is that we keep adding on new laws and fail to simply enforce the ones we have.
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:2, Insightful)
It's even more effective to keep people who are dangerous locked up.
Every day convicted criminals and dangerous psychopaths skirt the law by stealing firearms or using other weapons to hurt people.
Then again, if guns were banned for psycho's in the US then I guess profits would take a serious hit.
It's obvious that you've never bought a firearm in the US. The FBI does a background check on every prospective gun buyer. If you've been convicted of a felony or a violent misdemeanor, you can't buy a gun. If you've ever been found by a judge to be mentally unfit, you can't buy a gun. If someone to whom you're married, were married, living with or dating has an active restraining order against you, you can't buy a gun.
It's not a diminishing market that threatens gun makers, it's lawsuits. That's why the Bush administration has moved to forbid civil lawsuits against gun makers when some criminal uses their product to kill someone.
So then what the fuck do you know about US gun laws? This story is about the UK, why even bring them up?
LK
Re:Speedtraps (Score:2, Insightful)
That said, I hardly like the idea of being under surveillance continually. This has been reported for some time though (http://www.theregister.com/2005/11/15/vehicle_mov ement_database/ [theregister.com]) I would have expected several dupes from slashdot by now...
Fed up... (Score:5, Insightful)
What pisses me off the most is the usual 'this is being done to try and catch terrorists' - ffs, we've had ONE single Al Qaeda related attack happen in this country so far and THAT was from people that the government never suspected as they were British Muslims. How exactly would license plate tracking catch legal residents of the united kingdom if they so desire to blow themselves up in a public area?!
Why can't they spend the countless billions this service is going to cost to implment where we bloody well WANT and NEED it - in the schools, in the hospitals, on pensions for our old people.
Fucking fuckers. It really makes me mad. The priorities are fucked - this terrorism 'excuse' for taking away our rights is just really starting to piss me off.
Re:Fake license plates... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Read your own article? (Score:3, Insightful)
Britain to log all bowel movements (Score:2, Insightful)
Blair: "I want to deny drug users the use of our sewer system, non drug users have nothing to fear." "We need to fight them in the sewers so we don't fight them in the streets."
Re:Welcome to V! (Score:3, Insightful)
A much more appropriate and unused comparison is "V for Vendetta":
http://www.shadowgalaxy.net/Vendetta/vmain.html [shadowgalaxy.net]
1984 + Dark Knight + Utra Violence = V for Vendetta
How about... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to 1984! (Score:5, Insightful)
Or, shock horror, they could use their own damn car! Didn't one of the London bombers drive his own car to Luton?
What the authorities don't seem to have grasped is that with suicide bombers, they tend to have no "history", as their first offence tends to be their last!
May I suggest UK people reading this visit Write To Them [writetothem.com] and fax their MP suggesting that this is perhaps, you know, a trifle off, don't you know, what.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:2, Insightful)
Which one? The age limit for alcohol? I agree.
An adult is an adult. End of story. I've saw several people get busted down in rank and fined for drinking underage when I was in the Navy. While they were qualified to drive a submarine, direct airplanes, and stand nuclear watches, they were not 'qualified' to have a beer after work. Because it was the 'law.'
As far as purchasing guns as an adult, I see no problem. If you see a problem, then obviously you don't think they are adults.
Re:Another tremendous CCTV victory. (Score:5, Insightful)
Labour changed how crime was 'counted', its how they hit most of their 'targets'.
Things like this dont get mentioned much beca...look celebritys!!
Re:Why are we discussing this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, the "Yeah, well Clinton did it, too" approach. The Carter wrinkle's a new touch, though. Very nice. For clearly what's going on right now is nothing that hasn't happened before, these measures are here to protect us, to strengthen us in a world that's out to get us, you're all just overreacting and if something is wrong, then it's Clinton's fault. Substitute Clinton with "the Jews," and you've got Hitler's platform down pat. If things get as bad as we fear, it'll be on the head of nationalistic morons like yourself.
America isn't a baseball team; you don't cheer for it no matter what. This is not a Republican-Democrat issue. It is not a conservative-liberal issue. This is about keeping your leaders in check by watching what they do instead of listening to what they say, because every word that comes out of their mouth is something you want to hear. They've turned the country into a partisan sinkhole, where people are so busy choosing sides and playing favorites that they've forgotten what really matters, namely what the guys are actually doing. It was a master play.
The natural inclination of any organization, including a governmental administration, once it has succeeded, is to dominate. In the US at least, this must been done at the expense of the system that brought them to power in the first place, for that system discourages domination. The inclination to dominate has nothing to do with political ideology or the personality of the leaders, though clearly the people currently in power are showing little or no restraint whatsoever. In business, antitrust legislation prevents large businesses from destroying the economy. In government, similar restrictions were put in place to prevent administrations from attacking its internal enemies in order to perpetuate itself and grow in power. If you let these go without a fight, you are a fool.
What a Bunch of Paranoids You All Are! (Score:1, Insightful)
Does anyone really think that a policeman is going to sit there watching and reporting on where you drive? About 20% of the population would need to be employed on this alone. It isn't practicable. The use of such recordings is to examine them after an incident has occurred, to see what cars were around at the time (and see below).
Then there's the "criminals can swap number plates" argument. Sure, but they have been able to do that for the last 100 years, so what's new? In fact big-time criminals swap cars too. Yet number plates remain one of the most valuable tools in detecting crime and pursuing traffic offences. After a bank robbery at least the police would be able to see what direction the robbers took, and perhaps correlate it with a car (or plate) change.
Then you think you will be convicted if your car is seen "near" a criminal's car. Whan nonsense - some of you seem to have no idea how the law, and law enforcement, work. The police would like to see those "near" the crime as witnesses. Clearly if you happen to be just driving by, you may be a witness. OTOH if you have accomanied the crook's from the scene back to the same East London railway arch then you will have some explaining to do. I have no problem with that. The police do not "convict" people, the courts do that, and convictions have to be made on a coherant structure of evidence, not on one glimpse of a number plate.
Up to 50 years ago in the UK there was a great deal of citizen involvement in law enforcement. If a shopkeeper shouted "Stop Thief", any able bodied men in the area would have downed the thief or mugger and sat on him until the police arrived. In city centres there was a policeman at *every* main corner (intersection in US?) - about 200-300 yards apart. If there was trouble they would blow a distinctive whistle to summon two or three others within a minute or so. These days the thief would sue you, and the policemen have been cut for economy. I live in Bristol (pop 400,000) and understand that on a typical evening there are no more than six policemen on patrol - in cars of course. Yet you Slashdotters think we are a police state! The result is that crime and disregard of traffic regulations are rife. Yet you lot crow that "cameras have not cut crime". The fact is that there are not enough police to deal with everything that can be seen on cameras. The police need all the modern aids they can get. The criminals don't hesitate to use them.
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:5, Insightful)
Think of the recent bombings.
Anyone who drove through that area, from a suspected bad area, is now a suspect.
I know that many times, I've driven through bad parts of town, to commute to work. Some of the worst parts of town have the least traffic, so I've taken liberties with traffic control devices, like rolling stop signs. The police don't care, because if I'm not even stopping for stop signs, then I'm not buying drugs, or picking up some nasty hooker.
Now, being that I drove by a neighborhood with suspected bad people, I could now be bulked into that group. I'd still be perfectly innocent, because I don't know the people in those areas, but I'd look guilty as sin.
They'd be able to take liberties of when to pick me up too. It's easier to follow me, and pick me up in a grocery store parking lot, than to wait until I'm at home or work.
The world is rapidly becoming more big brother-ish. I don't like saying it, but it's something we'll have to get used to, until plenty of administrations change. As we innovate newer technologies, they'll continue to be used against us.
Re:More Information (Score:3, Insightful)
Average city speeds are so far below the speed limit that I doubt this will catch all but the most extreme offenders.
You hit the nail here.... (Score:3, Insightful)
England seems not to have changed, but (Score:5, Insightful)
Family courts meet in secret, names of those appearing before them cannot be published, and there is no appeal from their judgments. It protects children.
Foreigners can be subject to preventive detention without trial. To defeat terrorism.
Anti social behaviour orders can make any act by anyone, and them alone, a criminal offense. We have to do something to restrain people making everyone's life around them a misery.
We will be tracking dysfunctional families, and interventing to help children at risk of future criminal careers. Why wait until it is too late and they have already started?
We have covered the streets with cameras, to defeat street crime. Now we will track all vehicle movements, to deny cars to criminals. Next we will film all faces on all streets, so that we can track down the wanted and the terrorists.
We will have compulsory mental health medication. It will cut down on crimes committed by those in care in the community who stop taking their medication.
We will record all details about an individual on an ID card and will make this card the access point for benefits and medical care. We have to do something about benefit fraud and illegal immigration. And having all medical records available instantly will dramatically improve emergency room care.
I am not being ironic. We really do not have to worry much about this government. The intentions really are good. But the effect is increasingly to make practical liberties dependent on the goodwill of either the government or officials. I don't know what the answer is, but the lesson of history is that you cannot always rely on this, given swings of popular feeling in times of crisis, which may coincide with elections. But this is an argument you never hear in the UK.
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:5, Insightful)
Serious, yo.
and why else do it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:4, Insightful)
Very true.
Gun laws are the most obvious because they have the most impact.
Way off base. The US is practically alone in the democratic world in having such lax gun control. Gun regulations (that apply equally to everyone) are about as typical of fascism as breathing oxygen is.
It's a tragedy that certain forces have managed to convince so many americans that rights really worth fighting for are things like the right to guns and the right to not have health insurance. People use their attention on these total red herrings while they're being robbed blind of the rights that really matter. Wake up! You're giving up your gold for worthless glass beads, for christ's sake.
Now, this british "war on privacy" on the other had (and the similar suff in the US, with the EU trailing close behind), that is scary stuff. That is what people should be rallying in their millions against. Same with undue industry power over legislation and enforcement. Those are true hallmarks of fascism, and that trend is moving with swiftness and momentum over the entire western world, and hardly anyone is speaking up.
So shut up about the worthless guns already, and get down to real business.
Re:Another tremendous CCTV victory. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Fake license plates... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not so sure about that. Assuming for a moment it managed to capture an image of every license plate of every car that went by every capture device, statewide. What kind of database and processing power are you going to need to find "hits", duplicates, fakes, etc.? In addition, you've got to keep info like date, time, and location, for each number, at each capture point.
I think it will be a while (years) before the authorities will get real time results. Until then, this is just another "after the fact" tool that likely won't prevent anything. Great for the courts, lousy for the police and the people supposedly being protected by this system.
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:3, Insightful)
If you've read the links, you know what ended up happening. Even if you haven't, I'm sure you can guess.
So you'll pardon me if I'm a little skeptical of the worth of gun-control legislation, although my opinion that Canada has a spectacularly incompetent criminal justice system no doubt colours my views.
Re:Fake license plates... (Score:2, Insightful)
I got crashed into; the only real damage was the rear numberplate was shattered.
But since we were on holiday, and I'd foolishly not taken a huge pile of legal papers with me, I couldn't buy a replacement... They'd only accept the V5 as proof. Guess which document you aren't supposed to carry in the vehicle?
So technically, I'm driving around in an unroadworthy vehicle. That's now an offence for which the car can be seized and destroyed without anything annoying like a "court hearing" to get in the way.
Legit people can't buy numberplates without being inconvenienced, but I bet you buying fake plates is no harder than it ever was.
Re:Well you could ride a bike instead. (Score:3, Insightful)
As a Glasgow cyclist, I regularly encounter car drivers opening doors without looking, pulling out in front of me without looking, overtaking and then cutting me up when they want to turn into a junction ...
When the average driver (perhaps you are an exception), encased in their armoured pollution-generating cage, oblivious to the niceties of human interaction and frustrated by being perpetually stuck in traffic, has so little regard for cyclists and either ignores their rights or (worse) doesn't even see them, don't be surprised that cyclists have little respect for motorists and ride aggressively - it is the safest way.
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:4, Insightful)
So if everybody jumps off a cliff, we should as well? Seriously, there's a reason for the lax control: the US is also practically alone in the democratic world in having the right to self-protection being enshrined in its constitution.
Last time I checked, the "right" to free healthcare was missing from said constitution, along with the "right" to a job, the "right" to free housing, etc...
Congratulations! (Score:0, Insightful)
I applaud you on your over-the-top comparisons of Bush to Hitler and your amazing ability to name-call. With such rational arguments, it's amazing how more people in the country don't see things your way. I wonder what it's like to have all the answers? I guess that's just for morons like me and the grandparent commenter to wonder.
This is not a Republican-Democrat issue. It is not a conservative-liberal issue.
Let me guess... You have liberal leanings. You're furious at the state of the country right now. You're willing to make all sorts of nonsensical comparisons of this administration to past atrocities and call people names because you can't understand the "insanity" of what's going on right now. Only problem is, if as the grandparent comment implied, this were Clinton or Carter instead of Satan incarnate (Bush), you'd have no problem with it.
Let me clue you in on what's going on. Democrats aren't performing very well. Largely because of rhetoric like your comment. Because of that, swing voters such as I are voting for Republicans. I know you can't understand this but someone is not necessarily a moron just because they disagree with you. Just like I have voted for many Democrats in the past (including Gore in 2000), some day I hope to vote for a Democrat again. Want to hasten that process? Realize the world is in fact not coming to an end and shut your mouth (likely for the first time in your life).
Re:Fake license plates... (Score:5, Insightful)
This will, of course, make such thefts more common.
Of course, it would be possible to detect that there is a duplicate plate around, but not easy. For a start, having stolen a plate the thief will have several days' grace until the victim purchases another plate. For normal criminals that would be sufficient for their purposes.
For terrorists - especially suicide bombers - they're not worried about capture and are seldom known to the security services until after their attack, so this technology would be of little use for prevention. The only value it would have is to track their movements after the fact and build maps of their relationships, and I'm far from convinced that this would be terribly useful if the terrorists took a few elementary precautions.
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:0, Insightful)
Why is it when the US restricts liberties, it's called fascist, but when it allows rights to that "apply equally to everyone" based in the Constitution, it's called fascist?
I guess that's why fascism has done so well in Europe and not in the US. The US allows its citizens to arm themselves against tyranny.
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:1, Insightful)
As far as I'm concerned, anything that is in the Constitution is worth fighting for. Everything else is optional, with the exception of privacy. The right to self defense is worth fighting for. Unquestionably. The right to be secure in your privacy is worth fighting for. Unquestionably.
I don't particularly want to pay for some bum's health insurance, but that isn't really a high priority item to worry about. As far as I'm concerned, if the government performed national defense, police, schools, and nothing else, I would be happy.
Limited government is the key. You can't have a government that respects privacy but not your right to defend yourself, or vice versa. You also can't have a government that respects either if it is continually growing and believes that it is 'entitled' to your money. Government is like the kernel of an operating system. It should only perform the most basic functions, and it works the best when it does the least.
Re:Fake license plates... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Fake license plates... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to V! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Fake license plates... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, this is the very problem for eternity with violating the rights of people by a government.
Outlaw guns, only outlaws own guns.
Outlaw drugs, people will now kill, steal, and do other things to provide a desired good on the black market.
Outlaw abortion, women and their child die from kitchen table abortions.
Oh, well, it keeps us busy I guess.
Re:Just like gun legislation (Score:4, Insightful)
The right to bear arms is to protect your sovereign, unalienable rights (not, as implied disingenuously in the Second Amendment, to field a militia). The right to keep arms is the right to rebel. When you lack that right, you've abdicated your sovereignty to those who retain their own right to bear arms (i.e., the government).
The US is probably distinct from most of Europe in that the federal government actually has no sovereignty. The only sovereigns are the states and the people, and the national government is their de jure servant. Sovereignty implies self determination. All fascist/dictatorial-type regimes exist to serve themselves. You must keep government enslaved to your sovereign will and not vice versa, erst you become the slave.
Re:Fake license plates... (Score:3, Insightful)
However, the point I am making is that considering the prevaling situations at a few of these intersections, they didn't lengthen the yellow time enough when installing the light. One particular intersection I pass through every morning is a crossing of two 8 lane roads, one with a 45mph speed limit and the other with a 35mph speed limit. There are no walk signals at this intersection to use as a pre-yellow (as I've always called them). That makes for a large intersection and a decently long stopping distance. I've never had a ticket here, but one thing I've noticed is that many people (myself included) are more prone to use poorer judgement as to whether or not they should stop for the light or continue through.
Furthermore, your assertions of blam when somebody is following too close is rather irrelevant. I never said I was worried about hitting other people when they stopped. I always make sure to leave plenty of distance. It's not me I'm worried about. It's the other jokers on the road who don't pay attention, and an accident, no matter who's to blame, is still an accident and it's something that I would rather not have. Especially if I feel that I am having to stop too quickly in order to not blow through a red light. In the end, I think the addition of red light cameras in regards to accident rates is really a case of six of one or half a dozen of another. Either way, there's a danger of an accident, but only in one scenario can the city make some extra cash on the side.