HD DVD Demo a Disappointment 532
triso writes to tell us that the recent unveiling of the new Toshiba HD DVD production model met with a few difficulties. From the article: "It was supposed to be the grand unveiling of a new generation in home entertainment when Kevin Collins of Microsoft Corp. popped an HD DVD disc into a Toshiba production model and hit 'play.' Nothing happened. The failed product demo at this week's International Consumer Electronics Show was hardly an auspicious start for the HD DVD camp in what's promising to be a nasty format war similar to the Betamax/VHS video tape battle."
Well (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well (Score:4, Insightful)
Two points here... (Score:5, Insightful)
First point, HD-DVD had a bad demo and Cnet has one of the Blue Ray players on their "Best Of" list. Sounds like things are going to be interesting.
Second point, another famous demo failure I will point out is the infamous "Windows 98 Blue Screen of Death" that Microsoft had back in the day trying to show it off. And after that, only a few hundred million people used the OS. What a failure.
Weird, i don't get t (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean this was a production model, so either all their prodution models are broken, or they got REALLY unlucky and got a bad one..
If it were me though and I was going to showcase a new product, I would make sure that it acutally worked..
Quality Control is your friend..
DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
demos and marketing (Score:2, Insightful)
Surely they will try to find something in the BR camp to level things out.
Format wars and free markets (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why the worst link to this story? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Two points here... (Score:2, Insightful)
In all fairness, millions of PCs were sold with Windows 98 preinstalled. Companies and users with the need/obligation to run Windows applications but without the time/skill/resources to replace it with another OS bought those PCs and didn't have much of a choice in what OS to use at that point.
Highest Capacity Wins (Score:5, Insightful)
"Nasty format war" my foot (Score:5, Insightful)
With Betamax/VHS, there were pretty significant mechanical differences between the formats -- having a single unit that could play both types of media was essentially impossible without having two completely separate (expensive and futzy) transports. In the case of DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, they are all 12cm spinning optical discs with exactly the same physical characteristics from the transport point of view. Yes, there is a difference from the logical data formatting and laser point of view, but there is no reason that I can see (other than licensing from the respective consortiums) that a single player couldn't play CD, VCD, DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.
So fine, as a consumer, I don't give a shit. Frankly, I'm going to be buying DVDs as long as they make them, and I'm perfectly happy with that. Unless the Blu-Ray or HD-DVD consortium prevents manufacturers from making a unit that can play both types, I'm going to buy a new player that handles all of the formats, and they can jerk off as long as they want figuring out who's a winner, and I can buy pretty much whatever comes out and be able to play it.
We're all future Nostradamuses! (Score:2, Insightful)
The demo failed, B.F.D..
Re:Weird, i don't get t (Score:1, Insightful)
No, you run around like a chicken with it's head cut off the week before trying to get a demo that just runs with spit and bubble gum and no time for testing because your manager never got around to scheduling time to prepare a demo and just expected it to magically happen on top of all your regular work trying to meet the release date.
Where's the movie? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Two points here... (Score:2, Insightful)
A marketing blunder will not affect a company with a monopoly, but we're talking about two emerging technologies competing for dominance.
biggest failure (Score:3, Insightful)
Has Steve Jobs ever had a demo fail like that? (Score:2, Insightful)
Anyway, looking forward to Steve Job's keynote this week at MacWorld. Hopefully he will introduce something from totally out left field and blow us all away.
Re:Just why the hell do we need to replace DVD, no (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
And the reason we're going to a new DVD format... (Score:2, Insightful)
Seriously, since when have standard DVDs not been good enough? I've seen DVD output on a huge HD television and it looks spectacular. Wouldn't it make sense to put off the update until we really need it?
The greed of companies today drooling over the upgrade treadmill that people have accepted absoultely disgusts me.
Re:Format wars and free markets (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Just why the hell do we need to replace DVD, no (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:And the reason we're going to a new DVD format. (Score:3, Insightful)
You ask, aren't DVDs good enough? No. Personally, I don't think DVDs are good enough. They're the video equivalent of LP records. The video quality of DVD is basically the same as Laserdiscs, which have been around since 1978. For that matter, they're basically the same standard as NTSC, which goes back much further than that. HD isn't arriving too soon, I think it's long overdue.
Most importantly, HD discs will allow us to have a pretty close approximation of what was shown in movie theaters. The whole back catalog can be mined for HD discs. But if there are any future improved formats beyond HD, they'll run into the problem of finding material (other than IMAX) to show off its capabilities.
HD discs will be the video equivalent of CDs. That -- in my estimation -- is the threshold after which it won't be worth the hassle and expense of upgrading further.
You see what's happening with SACD and DVD-A? They're not winning the hearts and minds (and dollars) of the people because CD audio really is good enough. I don't think DVD video is good enough, but I think whatever comes after HD discs will falter for the same reason that SACD and DVD-A are faltering. The improvements offered will become too subtle for most people to be bothered about.
Re:Just why the hell do we need to replace DVD, no (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
But is that true in the big picture? When I was a kid, I used to bootleg VHS rentals all the time because I could afford 10-20 times as many movies that way. Now that I'm an adult with more income, I've bought the vast majority of those same films on DVD.
When I was a kid, my friends and I used to trade copies of audio tapes too, so that we could get each other interested in whatever music we liked. Again, as I got older I bought all of the ones I liked on CD.
I know there is a tiny group of people out there who really do pirate everything and never buy digital media, but I doubt they even come close to making up for the people like me who end up bringing money *into* the music and film industry.
Re:Well (Score:2, Insightful)
As an aside, we really should be supporting HD-DVD on the basis of it being lesser of 2 DRM evils.
Here's hoping... (Score:2, Insightful)
Or the most porn.
HD discs are long overdue (Score:5, Insightful)
"DVDs are great, why do we need anything better?"
When LaserDisc was introduced in 1978, they were GREAT. They were amazing. They could push right up against the limits of the NTSC standard. LD was really over-designed because very few people had TV sets good enough to show them off properly. DVD video is basically the same thing, it's designed to hit the NTSC standard. TV sets today are many times better than those of 1978, it's the signal standard that needs to catch up now.
So. . . 27 years after the introduction of LD format, how much longer should we wait for an improvement? 50 years? 100 years? Should we just give up on the idea of progress completely, and settle for watching blurry NTSC-quality images from now on?
No. We need a pre-recorded format for ATSC -- we've needed it badly for several years, in fact. This is the one huge element that has been missing from the HDTV transition.
Now we're on the verge of a video format that can show movies in a reasonably close approximation to how they appeared in theaters. VHS can't do that, LD can't do that, DVD can't do that. HD discs will. Nobody should underestimate the importance of this, because the back catalog of movies that can benefit from this presentation goes back many decades, there are literally thousands of them. There are movies from the 1930s or possibly even earlier that will look better on HD discs than they can on DVDs.
That won't happen again. If somebody 10 years from now tries to come up with some new format to replace Blu-Ray, or replace HD-DVD, they're going to run into a big obstacle. It's because most movies in the back catalog don't contain a lot more information than ATSC can present. Most movies weren't shot in 3D, they weren't shot in IMAX. There's nothing to be gained by presenting them in a format more advanced than ATSC-HD.
We can already see a preview of that, because there have been quite a few TV series shot, or produced, on NTSC videotape, which means they won't benefit from being put on HD discs. This is why I think HD format has a lot to offer, but anything that comes after it will probably falter in much the same way that SACD and DVD-A are faltering.
Re:Just why the hell do we need to replace DVD, no (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:HD discs are long overdue (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe you need it. I sure don't. I'm perfectly happy with DVD resolution on a 32" screen.
Re:HD discs are long overdue (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And the reason we're going to a new DVD format. (Score:3, Insightful)
I disagree with you as HD being a dead end. There is plenty of growth left past HD content, because frankly HD content is still crap when you compare it to computer monitor resolutions and to digital still photography.
As long as people keep buying ever bigger monitors there will always be room for higher resolutions. Think HD looks great on a 46", well I'm sure it'll look like crap on a 100" unless you are sitting back 15 feet" Yes I'm well aware you should be sitting back 15" but that's a point lost on most technophiles.
HD
1900x1080 at 24hz -- 2mp
My ancient (it's over 1 year old) Canon Rebel
3072x2048 -- 6.3mp
My new Nvidia 7800GT video card
2048x1536 60-85hz -- 3.1mp
The real stopping point for all technology is the human limitation. Until the day comes where we can no longer distinguish between watching a video and looking out a window, there will always be someone trying to improve the picture quality.
Re:HD discs are long overdue (Score:3, Insightful)
Wrong, wrong, wrong. LaserDiscs probably could have succeeded, except they were the size of an LP record (and therefore much more unwieldy than a VHS tape) and needed to be flipped in order to finish the film. DVDs, on the other hand, can cram an entire movie and more besides on a single side using dual-layer technology, and it all fits into a disc you can easily manipulate with one hand.
LaserDisc was too much technology, not enough convenience. That's why it failed. VHS beat BetaMax for essentially the same reason, if you define "convenience" as "ability to get movies you want".
And unless either of these HD disc formats can improve on the convenience of DVDs, they'll fail too. You mentioned DVD Audio vs. SACD -- both new "hi-res audio" formats failed utterly in the face of entrenched, "good enough" CDs. Don't rule out the possibility of both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray losing to the existing DVD standard.
Never underestimate the importance of convenience in the caplitalistic marketplace. The whole reason Man invented anything worth having was to make his life easier.
Re:Just why the hell do we need to replace DVD, no (Score:3, Insightful)
Solution: don't buy a HDTV set or disc player.
Re:Just why the hell do we need to replace DVD, no (Score:3, Insightful)
I have 10 years experience in broadcast video engineering, and a few video component designs in my portfolio. I have a true HD (1080i native) set, and an HD DVR to go with it. I can easily tell the difference between HD content and DVD-SD content, and I don't give a shit what Maximum PC has to say about it. Given the choice between a DVD of some movie and a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD of the same movie, I'd rather watch the HD version. I have no reason to feel embarrassed at preferring higher-quality video. If you can't tell the difference or don't think it's worth it, that's your problem and not mine. I don't need an excuse to brag, but I think perhaps you have some inadequacy problems to deal with.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Or perhaps we should boycott both. I'd prefer that; this gives us an easy way to get out of the endless upgrade-trytouse-getfucked-upgrade-trytouse-getfu
Re:Highest Capacity Wins (Score:5, Insightful)
Now this would make an interesting article to read. Instead we get another cheap and easy shot at Microsoft and a new technology that won't be accepted as main stream ever.
So how about writing a story about how you built a 4TB raid array for $800 and list all the parts and trade offs. I for one would really be interested. Seriously.
Re:HD discs are long overdue (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you really think the studios will release such unprofitable films? The market for films from the 1930s on HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will probably be infinitesimal. No, again, the distribution of this rare copyrighted content will have to be done by the Scene and those precious few archivists who truly care enough about our culture to break the law to preserve it [note: I do not imply the two groups are one and the same].
Learn from Steve Jobs (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Just why the hell do we need to replace DVD, no (Score:3, Insightful)
These were all compelling reasons to switch to CD. Note that I haven't mentioned sound quality - if you keep your records clean, vinyl and CD basically sound the same.
Mod parent as a troll... (Score:2, Insightful)
You claim that Apple is not releasing innovative products. Let's look at the releases in the past year. As has been pointed out, there already is a video iPod. Great new server? Hmm... I guess you haven't heard of the Xserve clusters at Virginia Tech. New systems? How about the Quad Core systems released late last year? You aren't going to find those in the consumer line systems from Dell or any other manufacturer on the PC side right now... Software? What about Aperture, which can save a lot of time for photographers - and time is, as they say, money. Based on the releases of the past year, I think people have every right to expect something interesting and possibly even innovative to be announced at MacWorld this coming week.
Anyhow, you have strayed from the subject, which I will try to return to... there are plenty of stories about demos blowing up in Jobs' face. They don't get the degree of press that Gates does, but, then, this is usually the case... Every tech firm has stories of demos gone bad. Some are humorous, many tragic, and some are truly acts of Murphy.
Format shifting (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Highest Capacity Wins (Score:3, Insightful)
sale and stock up). So that's 4.5 Gigs per buck. The best HDD sales
I have seen get you something like 3 Gigs per buck so dual layer
wins.
Here's what I expect: blu-ray camp counts on playstation to penetrate
into homes. HD-DVD battles back with low prices (even announced hardware
was half the price of announced blu-ray analogs). There is a chance
that I'll be able to buy a dual layer HD disk for $2-3 within a year
or two. If so then this is likely to beat the pants off of hard drives
since their capacity and price seem to have stagnated.
Re:Well (Score:3, Insightful)
24 FPS limitations (Score:3, Insightful)
That's down to a fundamental limitation of movies that nobody (in Hollywood or the tech world) wants to address, a real elephant in the room situation - everything's geared to shooting at 24 frames per second. Not only are movies shot on film at 24FPS, but even the new HD cameras used by people like George Lucas and Robert Rodriguez work at 24FPS as well!
No matter what resolution of HD the next-generation discs display, they're still going to be encoded from 24FPS originals. So it doesn't matter how much detail you can see - as soon as things start moving in your super new Blu-Ray or HD-DVD movie, you're still going to get blurs on live-action and that irritating clipping/strobing effect whenever people move too quickly in front of a greenscreened background. 24FPS is about the lowest a film can be projected and not get visible strobing between frames, and was originally chosen (as with so many things) for financial reasons - the more frames per second are shown, the more film is needed, and film costs money. So it's always been a 'just barely good enough' system.
If they'd really wanted to make the ultimate leap in visual quality, the HD backers would have pushed for an increase in framerate as well as resolution. The 60FPS Showscan projection system devised by Douglas Trumbull back in the early 80s supposedly exceeds the human eye's maximum 'refresh rate' and as a result looks far more 'real' than anything else - including 24FPS cinema projection, which is being held up as some kind of gold standard for how HD should look.
But that wouldn't help improve the look of anything shot in 24FPS, so no 'old' films (ie, anything ever made) would benefit. And Hollywood would never make such a radical (and expensive) change to their working methods in order to provide 60FPS material either. So I guess we're stuck with 24FPS movies until someone invents the holodeck.
Re:DRM (Score:3, Insightful)
Licence agreement? What licence agreement? You buy a disc, you get a disc. There's no licence or agreement anywhere in this process.
Stop FUDing around already.
As for ethics... You making a copy of something you've bought and which is your property versus a business making sure copyright will never end, stealing what belongs to the public. Which to side with? Tough choice indeed.
Re:Well (Score:2, Insightful)
The change should by now be obvious for anyone - we are now at a point where the actual content (film or audio) is just a bunch of bits. These bits should be non-dependant from ANY media (used to transport the bits), not locked into SACD, HD-DVD or anything else. I (as a consumer) am not interested in what the format is of the media, I (might) be interested in the content (buying the same content again) if the content has other qualities (better definition, or something else).
The computer is the ultimate tool for handling digital content. It will always be so, unless we loose the right to control our operating systems/hardware.If we get a new physical medium, guess what: You just stick a better card/reading drive into your pc and your'e done!
Now for my personal standpoint: I consider anything that hinders my ability to get to the digital content (read DRM) to be broken/defect, and eligeble for return.
DRM never adds capabilities for me as a consumer of the content. It's of no actual use, except preventing me from playing it on multiple devices or making backups.
I will return hardware with built in DRM, and a already have returned this Christmas the unplayable DVDs, CD's that friends/relatives got as presents and are unable to play on their equipment.(broken by DRM)
And here comes the punchline - in every case where the manufacturer added something that just doesn't work on my relatives equipment, I'm able to point out where to find a unprotected working copy of the content (yes - pirated - that's why I only show them where to find it, and how to do it) and leave them in a situation where:
a. they can't get a legal working example of the content without DRM
b. they know how/where to find the content, fully working but pirated
c. an insight that they could be doing something illegal by downloading it. And if they feel this to be wrong, do whatever they can to change it.(protest, vote, demonstrate, display civil disobedience, revolt, publicly denounce, e.t.c.)
d. a stern request that "they find a way to pay for the content" that they want - but to NEVER pay for DRM, since thats what broke it in the first place.
Ok, am I right in wanting WORKING stuff, stuff that leave me whith my rights intact (right to backup, right to not have to pay when the seller broke something)?
ah, yes, the illegality of it all (Score:4, Insightful)
Point. But more a point towards "wow, these laws are sortof stupid" than any real sort of warning. Unless one seriously expects companies to start looking at the contents of peoples' computers and then sueing them for it. Welllll, okay, nevermind, that's actually not that far off. But they really should not be allowed to get away with things like that, and I think it's better to hasten the day when that issue inevitiably comes up in a big way than to wait as public opinion adapts more and more to the currently strong zeitgeist of "if you aren't doing anything wrong...."
I mean, not to bring up politics, but yaknow . . .
But hey. Weren't there legal decisions in the favour of being able to make backups with older techs? But each new technology the fight is fought again, and each time the consumer side loses a bit more. Of course there are legal justifications for it (it being illegal to break encryption, etc etc) but there are enough random laws that these cases could in theory be justified many different ways for many different results.
Honestly, that's one of the reasons I'm relatively unlikely to buy DVDs (and much less likely to buy either of the new formats). Why in the world should I pay money for something that I'm not even allowed to use how I want, simply because the companies involved are greedy in an unrealistic way (ie. the actions motivated by their greed do not actually get the results they intend anyways)? And then it pays for things like the industry lobbying for the kind of laws that make it illegal to do things like making (what really should be perfectly legitimate backups, honestly, try to argue against it from a logical point of view knowing that the guy is using them for personal viewing, just making a bit simpler what he paid to be able to do anyway). Sorry, no thanks.
Re:HD discs are long overdue (Score:2, Insightful)
"DVDs are great, why do we need anything better?"
Nevertheless, whether you like it or not people are saying it, especially on Slashdot.
So tell me: if even geeks are indifferent to HD disks, what will be the man in the street's reaction?
Re:Well (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Weird, i don't get t (Score:3, Insightful)
It would be different if the failure had been for the demonstration of some "advanced" feature (e.g. selecting a different language, subtitles, jumping to a different chapter, etc.). But the very basic task of just playing a disk should be completely foolproof.