High-tech Cars Replacing Driver Skill? 805
Nick writes "What happens when you take a bunch of average drivers, put them in a car with no high-tech systems like anti-lock brakes and traction control, and ask them to drive on a safety test track? 360-degree spins, of course. And not only do today's drivers need ABS and traction control to keep their cars under control, it also turns out most drivers can't even name the high tech safety systems that are continually saving their butts. And to make matters worse, carmakers plan to install automatic radar-based blind-spot checkers so motorists can avoid looking over their shoulders while changing lanes. Even geeks find some of these technologies scary, including Wired's Bruce Gain, who drove Mercedes' S-Class with automatic braking."
One that wasn't mentioned here: (Score:3, Informative)
What about when the systems fail? (Score:1, Informative)
Speaking of S-Class auto brakes... (Score:3, Informative)
It was a bit of an embarassment and for some reason the test driver ended up losing his job despite it being nothing to do with him. Still shows that sometimes these pieces of technology do have a way to go before they work properly.
Re:I hate ABS...sometimes (Score:5, Informative)
ABS is not designed to make the car stop faster. ABS is designed to enable the driver to maintain maximum control over the car while breaking. ABS Q&A [dot.gov]. If you skid you don't steer. Though I don't think ABS makes the stopping distance longer so I don't see the need for your proposed kill-switch. Please don't use it if driving behind me..
Also take into consideration that the development of ABS just might have improved it in the last 13 years..
I would take my 2005 Skodas ABS, EDS and ESP Electronic Stability Programme over unassisted braking anyday.
Re:Speaking of S-Class auto brakes... (Score:5, Informative)
The test was a fraud in the first place.
Linky [theregister.co.uk]
Re:I hate ABS...sometimes (Score:5, Informative)
This is simply not true. Dynamic friction (skidding) is lower than static friction.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/brake4.htm [howstuffworks.com]
Re:Let's hope this is optional.. (Score:2, Informative)
The cars used have their ABS and tracktion control disabled, so most new drivers here should know how to handle the car.
Re:I hate ABS...sometimes (Score:2, Informative)
First part is not true, second part and third part is slightly more true as written by you. ABS can actually lengthen stopping on snow covered roads due to the fact that locked tires build up snow dams in front of them that can stop a car quite abruptly. When ABS kicks in the tires roll and break the dam apart increasing stopping distance.
For part 2 and 3, while stopping distances may be slightly increased (but not really significantly) your tires will not lock and you will maintain control of the vehicle.
The point of ABS is NOT in anyway related to stopping distance. It's function is to give you steering control during panic breaking.... allowing you to break as hard as is possible while still being able to steer. Computer controls can be better at some things then us meatbags can... and this is one of them.
I do however agree that cars should include toggle switches for these functions. I've had good need to switch off my traction control at times, and I could think of reasons to turn off ABS as well.
Re:This begs the question... (Score:1, Informative)
Re:I hate ABS...sometimes (Score:2, Informative)
if the road is dry, the stop time will be much shorter if the wheels lock and you skid.
This is absolute nonsense. It is a total myth. A skidding wheel actually takes longer to stop as the wheel(s) has lost grip on the surface that it is supposed to be adhered to. A rotating wheel is still gripping the surface and will slow you faster.A skidding wheel or wheels is also an invitation to lose control of your vehicle. If you do have to steer you cannot unless you remove your foot from the brake and reapply it.When I did the advanced motorcycle training years back, they taught us that the quickest and safest way to stop was through progressive braking - that is a steady application of the brakes - which can yield up to 70% more stopping power than slamming on the brakes and skidding. Proper application, i.e. not locking wheels, also allows for additional weight transfer to the front wheels, further enhancing your stopping power. Their theory is absolutely correct too, as the practice exercises we did showed and the fact that I am still alive and in one piece also shows. If I had done the whole skidding thing, I would be dead or serious injured.
Re:I hate ABS...sometimes (Score:2, Informative)
I think you should check your tires on your SUV. Over 6 years ago, I had a Audi 80 with none of the safety systems you find on modern cars. It handled wonderfully, and I knew very well about intermittent braking on slippery surfaces. This didn't stop me from crashing it due to a large ice plaque on the road, but nobody (except rally drivers) could have recovered the car as many people have told me on that particular situation.
Now, I do have a "sports car" three times more powerful than my Audi 80, with power brakes (which took a big time to get used to), ABS, ESP and whatnot. The first winter that I had it, I made the mistake of keeping the summer tires. ABS kicked in pretty much every time I had to brake harder than usual. (On wet roads or snow) The winter after that, I learned my lesson and I replaced my summer tires with winter tires. Result: ABS only kicks in very extreme situations (snow + very hard braking). It's all in the tires, after all the tire are the contact with the road.
On dry road my ABS never kicks in even with hard braking for emergencies (with tires adapted to the season of course) Finally: ABS will not shorten your brake distance. It is actually suseptible to make brake distances longer: this has been repeated to us many many times in driving school. (But then, getting your drivers license in Europe isn't as easy as in the US) ABS is designed to enhance the control of your car when braking: you cannot steer when your tires are locked and thus you lose control. The electronic intermittent braking that ABS does, gives you control because the tires are kept in a state between locking and rolling.
Also, it might be due to the mass of your SUV: both my Audi 80 and the car I own now weight about 1.3 tonnes. I don't expect a 2.5+ tonne vehicle to brake fast. There is not much difference between car brakes and SUV brakes and you have to take that into account when driving higher weight vehicles. (Note that my old car had drum brakes on the rear axis and disc brakes on the front axis. My current car has all disc brakes and that also makes quite a difference while braking. Check your SUV: at 13 years old it probably has drum brakes on the rear axis)
I also have ESP, which I can turn off when I want to. It only kicks in when you do extreme turns on wet or snowy roads. ESP uses ABS in order to brake specific tires, so that it can correct trajectory. If you go on a (empty) snowy parking lot, and floor the pedal and make a very hard turn you'll still skid with ESP on. With ESP off, you don't even have to do that ;-) It's fun though, but you don't do this kind of shit on the public road.
Easy cars vs difficult to drive cars. (Score:0, Informative)
I change cars once a year and always prefered big , luxury saloons. In 2004 however, I decided to buy myself a little black sportcar for my birthday.
An MG TF roadster. What a car! It was a very fun car , but difficult to drive. The gearbox was notchy, the clutch took way too early, the rear-end broke away too easily and it felt very unsafe with the ragtop only an inch from your head.I was almost lying down in my seat and thanks to its low mass it had loads of grunt and because it was mid-engined , a beauty to drive.But that's where the fun is!Because it was so difficult to drive it taught me skill and rewarded me richly when I drove it properly. I almost killed myself a couple of times with that car. I had dropped suspension and on a dry road the grip was unbelievable. That's where the problem comes in! It gave you no warning whatsoever. You could push it all to way to its limits around a corner and then when you finally crossed that fine line it would just let go! No smoking tyres or hopping around. All or nothing! On a wet road the little sportscar was a deathtrap. You could go around a corner at 5Mph and still let the tail hang out. I also once braked too hard while driving fast.No ABS shudder or anything. All 4 wheels locked up and I just kept going. Later I thought about it and realized that the ABS would have helped only if some of the wheels locked up. I was still doing about 40 Mph and the wheels were standing still, so the ABS thought that we must have made a miraculous instant stop and all was good. Well, now I'm back to a normal(well, huge!) luxury sedan with all the bells and whistles. Although I feel very safe now, I really miss the thrill and excitement that a car like that can give you. It's part of the experience.
Re:who cares? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:A Study Without Perspective... (Score:3, Informative)
- more total time in the car
- all time in the car was one-on-one with an instructor; no one in the back seat
- ninety minutes of practicing "emergency maneuvers" (I was really lucky -- one of my sessions was on gravel)
I took this course because my parents and I agreed that driving wasn't just some doodle, it was a serious undertaking that required serious training.And you have to keep in practice with your current car(s). Every so often on quiet streets I practice my threshold braking (who needs ABS?), or go into empty parking lots and practice avoidance turns.
If you seriously think the training is important, I'm sure it is available. You just have to find it -- and pay for it.
(Of course, the vast majority of drivers think that this kind of training and practice is a very good idea, but only for everyone else out there.)
Eliminate your blind spot by adjusting your mirror (Score:3, Informative)
Re:who cares? (Score:4, Informative)
The bigger barrier is that no one knows where the lanes are. When they put stripes down on all those roads no one surveyed them in to the inch. I dealt with customers in the 90's who wanted their GPS tracking systems to be able to tell them what lane or what mailbox they were in front of. It was hard to convince them that the map didn't exist that had all the lanes and mailboxes mapped out to that accuracy.
Re:who cares? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:I hate ABS...sometimes (Score:2, Informative)
Actually, this is not correct. The Bosch Automotive Handbook has graphs on this, but I could not find them online. A very similar graph is found here [racer.nl]. Notice the black line, which represents acceleration/beaking force. The X-axis of that graph is the slip ratio. From the graph you can see the highest braking force comes from a relatively low slip ratio (~5%). The force quickly drops after passing this ratio. Therefore - locking up the brakes will _not_ give you better braking than keeping the slip ratio at the peak braking force area of the curve. Also see threshold braking [wikipedia.org].
Re:who cares? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The worst drivers in the world, probably (Score:3, Informative)
I've tried thinking of the reasons for the high accident rate and the only thing that fits the facts is a general lack of ability to drive.
This evening, for example, the 6A bus skidded with its front wheels locked to stop and drop off a couple of passengers right in front of me, I thought it was going to mount the pavement, so I started to look for a soft place to land, but luckily it bounced off the kerb. That is from a so called professional driver!
The lights on the road are all phased to give a "green wave" at the posted speed limits, but most drivers still drag strip from one set to the next and many jump through on red, with consequent accidents.
The worst part of it all are the piles of flowers that appear with monotonous regularity by the side of the road.