High-tech Cars Replacing Driver Skill? 805
Nick writes "What happens when you take a bunch of average drivers, put them in a car with no high-tech systems like anti-lock brakes and traction control, and ask them to drive on a safety test track? 360-degree spins, of course. And not only do today's drivers need ABS and traction control to keep their cars under control, it also turns out most drivers can't even name the high tech safety systems that are continually saving their butts. And to make matters worse, carmakers plan to install automatic radar-based blind-spot checkers so motorists can avoid looking over their shoulders while changing lanes. Even geeks find some of these technologies scary, including Wired's Bruce Gain, who drove Mercedes' S-Class with automatic braking."
Re:Unrealistic test (Score:3, Interesting)
The worst drivers in the world, probably (Score:3, Interesting)
I cycle 50+ km a day and on my way to and from work I pass the wreckage of at least one accident in either direction. i.e. I see on average more than one accident every 25km.
Can anyone beat that?
(P.S. For the Danish readers the journey is along Roskildevej, right at Radhusplassen and over the swing bridge)
(P.P.S. I only notice so much as they appear to dump the wrecked cars on that bit of road I have the temerity to try and cycle along.)
(P.P.P.S. I do wish they would properly clean up all the glass and other rubbish afterwards as well.)
Re:who cares? (Score:5, Interesting)
I consider myself an excellent driver, but recognize that relatively few people care about improving their driving skills. I would much rather they have access to gadgets that prevent them from smashing into me than not.
It would be even better if I could step into my car with a latte, cell phone, and laptop, ask the car to take me to the airport, and read slashdot along the way. My guess is that it will happen within 20 years.
massive stupidity (Score:4, Interesting)
There's a reason why some rally cars have independent front/rear braking pedals. Sure that may be not an everyday example, but it's still more representative than trying to reinventing the controls from the unreality of video games.
Unless you are flying/floating like a plane, it is pointless to try to reinvent the wheel with controls of such low resolution and fidelity controlled by sub-par limbs of coordination, the thumbs.
The reason for accidents on the road happens to be more a direct result of poor driver competance than from poor controls. If you eliminate any driver that can't pass the B-license driver's test from Gran Turismo (1-4) at the level most drivers are subjected to in Europe or Japan, THEN can you start thinking about if the controls are an issue.
Sometimes, people are just not meant to drive.
It's not the car, it's the car's driver... (Score:2, Interesting)
Last winter I had an experience using ABS, and it seemed to me that it was knowing how and when to use ABS is a skill still sorely lacking in most drivers. You can read the entire quote [poconopcdoctor.com] on my blog, but here are the pertinent points...
Today's commute was quite an experience, as the Poconos, as well as most of the Northeast United States, were graced with 12 or so inches of the white stuff - snow, in layman's terms.
As I headed down the mountain, I spy a snowy white Range Rover, England's answer to the Hummer, creeping along the other side of the road. I assumed the road was blocked - I stopped and we both rolled down our windows - I asked the gentleman was the road ahead blocked by a car, was that why he was turning back? He replied in a Russian accent, "Is terrible road conditions - my wehicle can't make it - I'm goink home."
He rolled his window up and I mine, and I considered his words. Let's add this up. This man has a 2005 Range Rover, costing about $84,085 (Ichecked this price on the web later) - basically a car designed to scale Mt. Everest without shifting out of 1st gear, and I, on the other hand, am leasing a 2001 Toyota Rav4, list price about $20,000. He is going back to his safe, warm house, and I am attempting to drive down the mountain. The voice inside me says - go for it, (please note I have scheduled my inner voice for a visit to a good therapist) and proceed. Sure enough, the Rav starts to emit the familiar sound of the ABS brakes kicking in, but I find it relatively easy to keep it headed around the the steep curve and make it past the most challenging portion of what qualifies as our little Mt. Everest in these parts. Note to inner voice - you were right and I'm canceling that therapist's appointment.
The Moral Of The Story? - Thinking of buying a Range Rover? Buy a Rav4, save $64,000.00 and STILL be safe.
Arriving at the Park and Ride, I find that my bus company decided it was a tad too dangerous to venture forth into the elements, and so I was faced with a decision to either wait until they felt conditions improved, or drive in by my lonesome.
Lonesome won. The roads were actually fairly clear of snow, thanks to the road plow crews in PA and NJ, and since it was quite possible that the remainder of all timid Range Rover drivers had opted to decline descending the incline, remarkably free of traffic as well. Although I had phoned in earlier and given an estimate of at least a 2 to 3 hour delay in my arrival at work, I was only about 5 minutes late, and my boss was quite pleased!
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This begs the question... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:automatic breaking? (Score:1, Interesting)
What happened was that the engineers did the test themselves first before the TV cameras arrives, to make sure that it would all go to plan, they didn't want to embarrass themselves. What they realised was that the system didn't work so they decided to fake the test for the TV cameras. They had to brake manually but with the smoke, they obviously couldn't see the car in front so they placed markers down so the drivers knew when to brake. The markers they used were pieces of wood placed on the road, the idea being that the driver would feel the bump as the car drove over it. The problem was that the S Class Mercedes has suspension that is good at absorbing bumps so that one of the drivers missed his marker when the cameras were filming, hence the collision.
I suppose you haven't visited Miami (Score:3, Interesting)
We have many immigrants who either cross over by mexico (that doesnt mean theyre mexican)and then go cross across the southern states till they reach south florida or float across from cuba. (we've found rafts canoing in the keys) After that they get a job either with the construction industry which is booming here right now or with field labor. As soon as they have a job theres someone out here who will finance them a car despite not having a license.
The result?
Hundreds of brand new cars zooming all over the place at high speed doing seriously dangerous manuvers.
I just moved here from los angeles and this is the worst driving i have EVER seen. I see cars without license plates driving around, trucks carrying scrap piled high and unsecured with pieces falling off the back. Everyone here tailgates, its just a fact of life in miami. The amount of illegal driving activity on roads down here is so much the police departments have basically given up. Its taken quite a deal of work to learn to drive acting as though everyone around you is a drunk because many of these people haven't had as much practice driving with a cellphone as we in los angeles have. Seriously I dare anyone in the country to come down here and tell me this isnt the scariest driving in the country. In california they taught me defensive driving in school, here they seem to teach offensive driving or none at all.
Re:the relevance (Score:2, Interesting)
wait... let me get this straight. You drive through a school zone, slaloming between students, but you do it at speed because you can't be late for your appointment? And here I was thinking of doing an exchange program in the UK...
Re:Driver's License requirements = ZERO in USA (Score:3, Interesting)
Have to be over 17 years old
For motorcycles, you have to pass a basic competency test before you can even get on the bike on a public road
Have to pass a multiple-choice theory test before you can take a practical
Have to pass a video-and-button "hazard perception" test before you can take a practical
Have to pass a quick vision test at the start of your test before you can start the practical
Have to pass a practical test which usually involves at least some (if not most or all) of the following:
Emergency stop, parallel park, reverse around corner, three-point-turn, reverse parking, demonstrating how to check oil, water etc. and that you can locate the necessary components.
The practical test lets you make up to 15 "minor" driving faults and still pass the test (16 or more results in failure). However, if you commit one serious or dangerous fault you will fail the test.
Usually, it takes at least six months of driving lessons (one or two a week) for someone who doesn't know how a car works to get to the standard necessary for passing the practical test. Most people only pass on their second attempt at the practical test and the theory test has something like a 50% pass rate at any time.
I know for a fact that almost every country in the world treats a UK driving licence like it was a revered religious artifact when hiring cars etc.
Would someone from the US care to state the minimum requirements to obtain a full car driving license in their states?
Using GT4 etc as Driver Training (Score:4, Interesting)
Part of it is that I have the controls set up to replicate the race car as much as possible - that means a wheel and pedals, similar seating position, etc.
Playstation practice is really good training, especially the license tests. If you can get Gold on everything, you're doing well.
But like the show pointed out (Top Gear rocks BTW) the Playstation doesn't tell the whole story. It is very good for teaching line, hand/eye co-ordination, and agression. It does less well for teaching the sensation of keeping a car balanced right on the limit. With modern race tires, it's not unusual to pull 1.7G transients on concrete without aero. There's just no way for a game console to replicate that. The consoles also have trouble conveying elevation change and road camber (probably because you feel that more than you see it) The Nurburgring in person is *far* more intimidating than in GT4.
But if you understand the limitations, it makes a good training tool.
As far as ABS goes, my racecar has ABS, but its primary purpose is to keep the tires round. In testing, we found that driver modulation beat the ABS in terms of stopping distances (race tires and dry pavement) On wet pavement, same deal, but it was much harder for the driver to walk the line between "I've got it" and "it's got me". Part of the problem is the difficulty in an enclosed car of telling when the wheels are locked. With the ABS on, you could transgress the braking limit and the tires would stay round and the car would still stop.
For me, ABS has been an ass saver, but not a performance increasing device per sae (ie, I don't just mash the brakes and let the ABS do all the work - that's slow)
DG
Re:who cares? (Score:3, Interesting)
And that really sucks, IMHO...
I was on the highway on my way home from work (so durring rush hour), and since I live in Boston, the average following distance at this time is way too close... Anyway - the exit I was taking was backed up and about five of us in the right lane stopped just in time, but the guy behind me didn't. He pushed me into the guy in front of me and him into the guy in front of him...
No one was hurt - the guys in front of my had plastic bumpers that magically reformed to their original shape - but my truck and the car behind me were damaged.
The guy behind me screwed up and he admitted it. We got our vehicles off the highway, exchanged insurance info and went on home.
No one sued anyone else, no one got the slightest bit mad (except for the folks stuck in traffic now that one lane was stopped completely), and everyone was glad that everyone else was OK.
Why is it that I feel like this story is the exception to the rule? I've seen people in fist fights on the side of the highway after similar incidents, and I can't understand that at all.
It was an accident. Insurance was created for this specific reason. Get over it and get on with your life...
When you get in your car and get on the highway, there is risk involved. Do what you can to reduce it, but if you can't accept that something unexpected may happen, stay home.
Anyway - you are absolutely right. I saw a show recently about a car that can parallel park itself - and the segment ended with "the manufacturer is afraid to bring it to the US because of liability concerns". Ugh.
-bs
Re:who cares? (Score:4, Interesting)
I've had 4 different cars on my life, want to know the easiest way to learn how they react? Snow covered parking lots! Go with a trusted friend in the passenger seat, drive around at 10 mph or so, left right turing, and ask them to pull the e-brake at times, and release to force a skid that you weren't expecting. It doesn't take long to learn how your car reacts. Do it alone even. I've just found that it's the easiest, and SAFEST way to learn what your vehicle will do with lose of traction.
Re:I hate ABS. (Score:2, Interesting)
It is possible (don't know much about Sentra's) that you have front disk brakes and rear drum brakes (still pretty common). In that configuration ABS isn't as effective as on a 4 wheel disk system but even in that configuration the computer can pump the brakes far faster than you could ever hope for. Not only that most ABS can control each wheel seperately. In a 4 wheel disk 3 or 4 channel ABS the stopping capabilites of your car in dry and defintely wet conditions is FAR superior to what you will obtain by yourself.
Preferred Danger Level (Score:3, Interesting)
This applies when driving, and is _extremely_ important when developing safety systems when driving. Take a person and let them get used to a vehicle that is unsafe, and they will drive more carefully to compensate for the problems that the vehicle has. However, as soon as more safety features are added they will return to their previous (less safe) habits. The problem is that almost everyone overestimates how much safer they are because of the devices, thus they overcompensate, and are actually less safe driving the newer vehicle (because of their changes in style) than they were in the older vehicle. But they actually feel safer because of the safety features and whatnot.
This is the real reason that unless a feature is absolutely necessary, or shows a difference in safety greater than the compensation, I do not want auto braking or lane change signals and similar tech. What I do want is simple: two devices, one that show the CURRENT speed limit accurately; and one that shows the actual color of the light that you are approaching and how long you have before a light (if green or red) changes. These are two things that would help improve safety by making sure that no one ever has an excuse for running a red light. The speed limit device would give folks a clear idea of their speed in relation to the law. Then if they get caught, the fines could be handled appropriately.
Re:Driver's License requirements = ZERO in USA (Score:3, Interesting)
Occasionally there are horror stories about ancient legally blind people in Florida who take the test 20-30 times before passing and getting their license. Florida's also the only state I've ever heard of where elderly people routinely get on the Interstate going the wrong way. They usually end up killing half a dozen to a dozen people and suriving themselves. Seemed like it was happening about once every six months while I was living down there.
How would the original drivers fare though? (Score:2, Interesting)
And just because a car is new doesn't mean it's loaded with auto-driving doodads. I have a 2005 Nissan Altima. No ABS, no traction control. I put 168,000 miles on a 1997 200SX 5-speed. No whiz-bang gizmo's on that sucker. Somehow I managed to drive in all conditions from 1/2" ice-cover, to snow, to rain, to black-ice etc without ever crashing into anything. [Although I did come close to sliding into a telephone pole at 2mph, stupid crowned road with 1/2" solid ice. But ABS wouldn't have saved me there either]. Did I lose traction? Sure, but I knew how to control my car. If I was suddenly dropped into an unfamiliar car and onto the track at "Graham Griffiths Ultimate Car Control training school" would I lose control? Yeah I probably would. And most people who aren't professional drivers probably would too.
Of course, I think my old car was easier to control with the 5-speed than an automatic since I could also modulate the clutch a bit to help control what the wheels were doing but even with an automatic I think I'd be in trouble if I ever get ABS. It's just second nature for me to start pumping the brakes if I start to lose traction. I know the ABS would be much more effective than I could ever get with my foot but that will be a hard habit to break.
Re:who cares? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd like to think I'm slightly above average, but nothing great. I'm one of the few of my generation to actually take Driver's Ed. I've also taken a defensive driving course, as well as a general car control course, an autocross driving school (more of the same really), and I've raced in a fair share of autocrosses. I'm also one of those people who's always interested in improving their driving skills, and make it a habbit to try to pay more attention to what my car is doing -- feel its movements through the controls.
That said, I would still only consider myself slightly better than average. You know what? I kind of like some of these driver aids. I love having ABS now. Yes, I can drive a car without ABS and learned how to brake at the threshold of tire lockup, but I love having it. It has saved me on at least one occasion where I had a driver pull out in front of me on a wet road. I've yet to drive a car with traction and/or yaw control in an environment where I could test the limits of those technologies, but I'm sure they work well too. I wouldn't want to race one of those cars, but that's the point really. These cars are designed for the road, and these technologies help people keep from having accidents.
One last note. I think everybody should be forced to learn to drive stick on an underpowered car. It really forces you to think about your environment more. You have to pay attention to that hill coming up (Do I need to downshift to make it up?). You pay more attention to the vehicles around you at stop lights (Am I going to roll back into the car behind me?). The reason 90% of people give for driving automatics is that they are lazy and/or want to relax. That's just the problem with our driving society here in the US: they aren't paying enough fucking attention.
our brain is very good at 60 mph (Score:2, Interesting)
Is there a study that confirms this? I would like to disagree that our brain is incapable of processing the world at 60mph.
At 60 mph, the world is indeed moving much faster. There is more information that passes before our eyes going 60 mph than going 3 mph in any given time period. Our mind is very selective, and is incredible at filtering information to reduce information overload.
Even at 60 mph, though, our brain still pays attention (incredibly!) to detail. If you concentrate on the road and do not get distracted, you will be amazed at how much detail you can catch, process, remember and still control.
Do not confuse "inability to process the world at 60 mph" with "too preoccupied with own thoughts to notice the world". Oftentimes when we are walking and have things on our mind, we will hardly pay attention to the sidewalk, to the storefronts, even to passersby. Much of the time people are just as preoccupied when driving, but not paying attention to detail should not be attributed to the fact that we're travelling at 20X the speed we're walking.
The danger lies that we can react just so quickly. If it takes us 1 second from the time we recognize a situation, make a decision about it, send electric impulse to our muscles at 3 mph, it still takes us the same 1 second at 60 mph, even at 600 mph. A whole lot can happen during that 1 second, and the faster we go the more dangerous it becomes.
Does this mean we can't process the world at higher speeds? I think it becomes more and more challenging, but 60 mph is nothing to fret about.
Re:A Study Without Perspective... (Score:3, Interesting)
How to get your drivers lisence in Norway:
(Part 0. Pass the health requirements, good vision, etc)
Part 1. Attend 17 hours of trafic 101 (TGK) classes at a driving school (includes first aid training in a set up accident and 3 hours of night driving).
Part 2. Car Handeling: 1 hour compulsory driving with a driving school and then as much privat training as you whould like (with a person older then 25, with more then 5 years experience. It is common with 50 hours or more before continuing training).
Part 3. Trafic Handling: 4 hours of training on a closed track with instructor, including driving on a skidpad (2 hours).
Part 4: Final Training: 13 hours compulsory training (8 hours on road) with a driving school.
Part 5: 1.5 hour theory test
Part 6: 1 hour practical driving test.
Note that to be a licenced driving instructor you need 3 years of university level education.
The total price for getting a licence is around 3.000$, more if you need addional training or does not pass the practical test the first time.
This may seem very expensive, but last year there was less then 200 people killed while driving in Norway (around half due to drugs/alcohol), with aprox. 4 mill registered vehicles in the country.
And specially considuring that on most roads they only remove the snow, and not the ice during winter, in a period where there are 5-6 hours or less of daylight during the winter season (the northern part does not see the sun for 2-3 months). You are required to use snow-tiers (with steel-spikes or soft-rubber) for 4-5 months a year even in the southern part.
Most people are pleased with the requirements for getting the licence. No political parties wants to change the driving education significantly, one party wants the training to be a part of the compulsory education at school.
(By the way: Almost all cars have a stick-gear change, since you need the clutch to regain control of car the if/when you skid while driving on ice. The average age of a car in Norway is around 10 years old, petrol cost aprox 1.6$/l (6-7$/gallon), drive 20 miles/hour too fast and you risk a 1000$ ticket, a new Toyota Yaris cost around 30.000$ after paying fees to the state. What the fees of cars, petrol and tickets should be, on the other hand, is heavily debated =)
Guess I will just have to keep my old girl going! (Score:1, Interesting)
Big spike in the middle of the steering wheel. (Score:1, Interesting)
Speaking as a cyclist then I can only agree with D.H. Lawrence (I think...I can't find the quote at the moment) who said something along the lines of "the gadget that would do more than any other for road safety would be to place a really sharp, really big spike in the middle of the steering wheel."
Sadly my experience on my daily 16 mile bicycle commute is that the standard of driving has become much, much worse in the past 5 years. Worst of all are the fucking imbeciles trying to text on their cell phones whilst driving. In an ideal world I'd be licenced to shoot the bastards.
So maybe the next best thing would be a mandatory chip in "non emergency service" phones that shuts the fuckers off when they're in a moving vechile (Yes, including trains)