VMware to Make Server Product Free (as in beer) 216
yahyamf writes "CNET News.com is reporting that in the face of increasing competition in the OS virtualization market VMWare is going to give away its GSX server product for free, in the hope that customers who try it will eventually migrate to the more powerful ESX server. The company recently released a free VMWare Player which could only run but not create virtual machines. The company faces competition from rival products such as SWsoft's Virtuozzo, Mircrosoft's Virtual Server, as well as open source software like Xen"
hey don't leave out qemu (Score:3, Informative)
Qemu may not run as fast as vmware does now but it's here, it's free and you can change whatever you want about it. The same is not true for vmware
SECONDED (Score:2)
Re:SECONDED (Score:2)
Re:SECONDED (Score:4, Informative)
Re:SECONDED (Score:2, Interesting)
And then there's the licensing issue – while I appreciate QEMU being free and all, I don't like how the KQEMU module's proprietary software that can't be freely distributed. I'd much prefer to just have a completely proprietary solution that works than to have a half-free solution that doesn't really do much for me. Although if I knew how to write virtualization software I'd have my own solution anyway
Oh, and remember Bochs [sf.net], what we used to have before QEMU? I remember spending hours just toying around with that program... ran Windows 95 pretty nicely, and before I switched to Linux it was rather nice to have a virtualization program that ran reliably on Windows 98SE.
Although now I'm a Linux user and addicted to VMware, so why should it matter?
Re:hey don't leave out qemu (Score:2)
Because what I want... (Score:2)
Re:hey don't leave out qemu (Score:2)
Blatant advert alert! I recently put together a page about running XP under Qemu [crazysquirrel.com]. It's a bit tricky to get working (due to a bug in XP) and dog slow but if you must have XP under Linux this is a solution that works. I use it to test websites in IE.
Why I switched from VMWare to Qemu (Score:3, Informative)
I use virtualization a lot, both at work and for for personal needs. I have got about 20 disk images, and my work typically requires me to run 2 or 3 virtual machines concurrently. Three or 4 years ago, I was using VMWare because it was basically the only product that worked well at the time. However I have switched to Qemu since then, because IMHO it is technically superior. Here is why:
The only feature I would like to see implemented in Qemu is the one allowing you to make real USB devices available to guest OSes. But anyway VMWare has so many disadvantages (see above) that for me it's a clear no-go. I think people praising VMWare are maybe too close-minded and don't realize its disadvantages because they have no experience with other virtualization softwares...
Re:Why I switched from VMWare to Qemu (Score:2)
Additionally, VMWare has multi-processor support, as well as virtual SMP support, so you can simulate SMP on a single processor box (handy if you're debugging SMP problems but only have a single CPU system).
Also, there's a pretty extensive scripting API on both GSX and ESX server and has been for years. I can't speak for Linux API, but the COM api on Windows has been used for a long time.
About the only thing on your list that VMWare GSX server doesn't have is your "copy on write" but for the performance advantages of VMWare, i'd deal with it.
Re:Why I switched from VMWare to Qemu (Score:2)
Re:hey don't leave out qemu (Score:5, Informative)
MOD DOWN... not informative, it's incorrect (Score:2)
You're right (Score:2)
Reference:
Remove the three lines that begin with the following:
ethernet[n].generatedAddress
ethernet[n].addressType
ethernet[n].generatedAddressOffset
In these options, [n] is the number of the virtual Ethernet adapter -- for example ethernet0.
Add the following line to the configuration file :
ethernet0.address = 00:50:56:XX:YY:ZZ
In this line, XX must be a valid hexadecimal number between 00h and 3Fh, and YY and ZZ must be valid hexadecimal numbers between 00h and FFh.
Re:hey don't leave out qemu (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:hey don't leave out qemu (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:hey don't leave out qemu (Score:2, Informative)
The "vast majority of people" live on 2 dollars a day and don't have computers. The vast majority of computer users don't purchase software that didn't come on their computer. The vast majority of IT depts don't purchase software without some sort of justification. A good IT person would be able to evaluate their needs and match to the appropriate solution given resources available.
Doesn't mean that VMWare doesn't rock. Just that there are considerations you and other failed to take into account when marking the parent as flamebait.
Re:hey don't leave out qemu (Score:3, Informative)
What makes you think OS/2 was his OS of choice? It was only one of several that he listed.
Don't you think that you should invest in non-closed source knowledge ?
He ends his post by saying "I also support OSS that does a better job than commercial alternatives. It's about choice.". Did you even read it?
Mmm? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Mmm? (Score:2)
Re:Mmm? (Score:2)
Mircrosoft (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Mircrosoft (Score:2)
Re:Mircrosoft (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, but the way the world works is that people who wouldn't normally even think about VMs will think about them for no other reason than the fact that it came for free with their OS. Microsoft will have a button somewhere labeled, "click here to make this a VM" and people who don't even know what a VM is will click it.
Don't believe me? Take a look at the form that comes up after you install Win2k3 advanced server. The form is labeled "Configure this Server" and it has a checkbox labeled, "make this a DNS server" and the word DNS is underlined. When you click it, if gives you the definition of DNS. Isn't that great? If you don't already know what DNS is, then you don't have any business setting one up. But that's the microsoft way. That's their target audience.
How hard is it to sell a DNS server to these people? "Do we need DNS? Wait, don't we already have that in windows?" VMWare is understandably worried that their product will soon be viewed in exactly the same way. "A VM? Do we need that? Wait, we already have it right here, just click that button"
Re:Mircrosoft (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Intel VT (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Intel VT (Score:2, Interesting)
On side note, after seeing how easy virtualization can happen with Open Source kernels - e.g. User Mode Linux, Xen, Plex, coLinux, etc - me keeps wandering why M$ haven't done that with WinNT kernels. There are only few true obstacles in x86 "architecture" which prevent effective virtualization - VMware is solving all of them at very high level and of course tried in past to charge premium for that. Xen modifies kernel so that overhead of virtualization is negligible - it's not another computer emulator, it's just kernel running as a ordinary OS process. (Anyway, user tasks see computer only as it is reflected by kernel and device drivers (-: )
I know M$ likes only good cash cows (like M$ Office franchise) but as OS kernel concerned, the modifications to allow it to run in virtual machine are truly not that big. Check-out the coLinux - it's neat. http://wiki.colinux.org/cgi-bin/ConvertingDistrib
P.S. Or is it what M$ Windows Advanced Server for?
Re:Intel VT (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Intel VT (Score:2)
Given shared storage...
So you either have something like fiber channel (vey expensive), iSCSI (doesn't look production-ready on Linux) or NFS root (pity the fool that relies on Linux NFS servers in a production environment).
Any realistic, production-ready, Linux-based shared-storage alternatives that don't cost like a bazillion dollars?
Re:Intel VT (Score:2)
Virtuozzo has vzmigrate, but in a real production environment where you're migrating customers between hardware nodes, the arp-cache is your enemy much more than the few seconds of down-time that a product's migration tool incurs.
Re:Intel VT (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Intel VT (Score:2)
And price, price, price.
Frankly, I dont know many ESX users who havent been swearing over the price, which has more or less made it just barely cost effective in many situations.
While I've been an avid VMware fan, they've lost me because of that. Despite their moves in the right direction, it's simply too little too late. Even with GSX free, I find Xen a vastly more interesting option.
So many companies tend to underestimate the level of negative mindshare they can build when they abuse their position and gouge their customers.
Re:Intel VT (Score:5, Informative)
The second is not very hard conceptually. You just need to do some kind of multiplexing and then expose your devices as if they are a fairly general device of the category. While this is conceptually simple, it is practically a lot of work. Again, Xen dodges the problem here slightly be requiring that the domain 0 OS supports the hardware, and then providing generic virtualisation routines for various categories of device (consumer VMWare and VPC do the same - not sure about the server lines).
VT / Vanderpool / whatever make the first of these much easier (about as easy as it's been on RISC machines for the past decade or so and on mainframes for the past three. Yay for x86). They do very little for the second part of the puzzle. On PowerPC or SPARC, it might be possible to implement OpenFirmware drivers for hardware that are virtualisation-aware (IBM's servers do something a bit like this). I don't know if EFI has this capability; if it does then things like VMWare might become obsolete.
Oh, the final part of the puzzle is clustering. Xen and the server-grade VM systems provide clustering support which allows virtual machines to be transparently migrated between cluster nodes. This is quite useful, since you can run N VMs on M machines, and squeeze the low-activity ones onto a small number of nodes, then have then migrated to their own node when they are under high load.
Re:Intel VT (Score:3, Insightful)
Devices aren't merely multiplexed. They're virtualized (or emulated, if you prefer that term.)
What's the difference? For disks, the virtual machine doesn't see the actual disk controller or disk. It sees an emulated IDE or SCSI controller, and the virtual machine's disk storage is backed by a file in the host operating system. Reads and writes to the disk file go through normal Windows or Linux file APIs on the host. (Raw disk passthrough is possible, but it's still more complicated than multiplexing.)
For network devices, the virtual machine sees an emulated NIC. (AMD PCNet32, Intel E1000, or VMware vmxnet device, depending on the VM.) Packets are sent on the physical network via the Windows or Linux networking layers. To receive incoming packets, the host's network card is put in promiscuous mode, and packets destined for the virtual machine's MAC are filtered to it.
Other types of devices are fully emulated. Video? The VM has a VMware SVGA card. Updates to video are emulated, and the contents of the virtual frame buffer can be displayed via VNC, the VMware remote console, or drawn via X or Windows GDI calls via the local UI. Other types of devices in the virtual machine, like interrupt controllers, the chipset, and so on, are fully implemented in software. No "multiplexing" is done with these devices.
I also disagree that the processor emulation is a "hack" that "kills performance." While x86 is not trap-and-emulate style virtualizable, binary translation is hardly a "hack". And it hardly kills performance. Projects like Dynamo have been improving performance of compiled code by dynamically translating it. And Intel announced plans to kill off x86 emulation in IA-64 hardware, because their software solution was good enough.
Re:Mac already runs Win (Score:2)
What about existing customers? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been paying for regular updates to VMWorkstation over the years, does this mean I can stop and just use the free products?
That said, it's still worth the money I've been paying.
Re:What about existing customers? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What about existing customers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why? If you thought $1400 was too much for the product, you wouldn't have bought it. Since you bought the product, clearly you thought that what you were getting was worth more than what you were paying for it. So you were happy with the deal you made with VMware. Surely you are not petty enough to begrudge others the better deal that they are now getting?
Though I'm certainly not the religious sort, I'm reminded of the Christian parable of the workers in the vineyard. You made your own deal with VMware, and you were happy with it. What business is it of yours if, since then, they have changed their plans and now offer better deals to others?
Re:What about existing customers? (Score:2)
I believe Apple computer does this as well, if you buy a computer a few days before a price drop, they'll refund you.
Re:What about existing customers? (Score:2)
Some stores do it as a customer-friendly measure, but they leave themselves wiggle room, or have to have wiggle room in order to sell certain product lines, etc.
You pays your money, you takes your chances.
Limitations? (Score:5, Interesting)
Very exciting indeed.
Re:Limitations? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Limitations? (Score:3, Informative)
No it's not troll, but it's totally uniformed. Currently SMP (multiprocessor/multithreaded) VMware is only supported on ESX server as an addon [vmware.com]. As ESX runs on bare hardware (it's GSX who runs as a Linux application), there is currently no support for "virtual multiple CPUs in Linux". (Xen does this, but it's not the issue now).
Additionally OpenMOSIX (which comes with ClusterKnoppix [bofh.be] - I guess you meant this by "those Live CDs"), does not to "SMP like" processing. Instead it combines the processes in a "global system view" state. (Too much technical details here, but a multiple threads are not migrated -- see HOWTO [faqs.org]).
Moreover, it would be slow because of obvious issues -- as in network based access to disk and shared memory!
Finally multiple GSX servers managed from a single point is already possible with VMWare virtual center (google this yourselves is left for an exercise).
Sorry, but your suggestion will not work (at least under current circumstances).
Re:Limitations? (Score:2)
Re:Limitations? (Score:2)
If so, please do not try to do this in a "generic" way. Even if somehow you achive to do it, the effect will be opposite of what you want. There is a big bottleneck in PC networking, unless you're using some specific fabric (say from Sun).
Instead, try to rewrite you application to be "cluster aware". Windows has (in production?) a new version called "Compute Cluster Edition" [microsoft.com] which comes with MPI and necessary management tools.
If you do not have access to the source code, bad luck then. Either use Free Software next time, or buy yourself a "powerful" single machine.
If I'm mistaken and you're trying to make a "POOL" for virtual machines, then Xen would be a good solution (for it's price). However as you've said VMware is solid but Xen is "in infant stages". You'll have to write many (probably in Python) scripts to do your job.
Strange thing to say ... (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not only more powerful, it's fundamentally different. It's requires a different sort of administration. Also, the usage is different. gsx wil rarely be actively used in high uptime required production environments, esx will. esx also enables functionalities such als vmotion (if you have a san [wikipedia.org] that is) and will be used more often in blade server configs.
I really wonder if people will view esx as an 'upgrade' to gsx.
Why Not Use Patents? (Score:4, Insightful)
Are all their patents pending?
Re:Why Not Use Patents? (Score:2)
What they have to fear is the new hardware based virtualizers.
What would the title be?
"PATENT FOR USING AN ARCHITECTURE THAT WE DIDN'T WRITE IN A WAY THAT IT WAS INTENDED TO BE USED" comes to mind.
You don't think that'd fly, do you?
You don't think that perhaps that AMD and Intel might have problems with that?
I guess they could brag about the clever things they did to make an all hardware based virtualizer. That doesn't really help, though, does it? After all, Xen (and whatever else comes along) don't handle those cases anyway; it's not where they are competing.
Re:Why Not Use Patents? (Score:4, Funny)
VMWare is not in a good position to use patents to protect their IP.
The reason being that they actually have a product. This means they can be countersued for things like using a drop down menu, displaying a rectangle on a screen, ingenious stuff like that.
Re:Why Not Use Patents? (Score:2)
Because IBM probably has all the patents via their VM system that has been around for 30 years
Re:Why Not Use Patents? (Score:2)
Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2)
Re:Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2)
Re:Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2)
XP Compatible host (Score:2)
However, id do think the workstation edition will start getting things more useful as a 'desktop', such as accelerated graphics. While the server editions wont ever have that.. Different market.
Re:Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2)
Re:Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2)
GSX also includes a vmware-console application that you use to connect to the GSX server to view your consoles. So yes, you technically could replace VMWare workstation on a Linux box with GSX server and probably be fine.
Re:Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2, Insightful)
Workstation is probably more widely used the GSX server. They are
different Animals. Even tho GSX server may end up being free, we may
install it to a single production server. However, we will also
continue buying Workstation for testing. There are several people with
Workstation installed to the laptops so they can create/run various
VM's. On my laptop alone, I hav about 8 VM's that I use for testing
(various OS, VPN softwares, script design, etc). I would never install
GSX to my laptop.
Re:Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2)
Re:Why no free VMware Workstation? (Score:2)
Not claiming we're always going to sell workstation forever and ever, just saying it's not necessarily an absurdity to go on charging for it. Not speaking for my employer, etc.
Wait a second.... (Score:4, Informative)
expected != will
Re:Wait a second.... (Score:2)
Sublime server names (Score:2, Funny)
I'm interested how the Intel Virtualization Technology will run on the up and coming SEX server.
Speculation (Score:3, Funny)
So the title "VMware to Make Server Product Free (as in beer)" is misleading at best.
Re:Speculation (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Speculation (Score:2)
Kinda Worries Me (Score:2)
Virtualiazation isn't going to be . . . (Score:2, Insightful)
The good news is: (Score:2)
How about a version to run under OS X? (Score:2, Interesting)
This would be great (Score:2)
The issues would be 1) Will Mac OS be supported on non-"trusted" hardware? and 2) Is there money in it? It seems only fair that someone else should offer a VirtualPC software to compete with Microsoft's Mac OS VPC product.
I am going to try and start an internal campaign to stir this idea up at my employer... a vm company of whose name you are aware.
Continued Devlopment? (Score:2)
Related Stories? (Score:3, Funny)
And most importantly: Will it also list the dupes?
Not GSX (Score:2, Informative)
You can make your own VMs for VMware player (Score:5, Informative)
Sure you can. Take a gander at http://www.hackaday.com/entry/1234000153064739/ [hackaday.com]
What you don't get with VMware player is the nifty GUI to help you with the setup.
What excellent timing. (Score:2)
Confused... (Score:2)
evaporating market (Score:2)
VMware is not competing (Score:2)
Re:Good Move! (Score:4, Interesting)
Jason.
Re:Good Move! (Score:4, Interesting)
Player makes sense... small run-only environment, embeddable, etc.
But if GSX goes free what would a pricy workstation offer?
Re:Good Move! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Good Move! (Score:3, Informative)
It's provided under the "here are the binaries; you may not reverse engineer them" license.
Read the topic again -- free as in beer, not free as in speech. Just because I give you the beer for free doesn't mean I have to provide you the recipe.
Re:Good Move! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Good Move! (Score:5, Interesting)
Ultimately GSX, Workstation and player are all essentially the same technology. ESX only differs by being a custom linux distribution making it very easy to install and a web interface to control operation and a few enterprise features such as VLANS and the VMotion addons. They've also moved some of the virtual machine I/O and handling into a kernel module rather than running in userland to gain some sort of performance advantage. Rather strangely ESX seems to be slow at supporting iSCSI. Of course there are also tools to limit bandwidth and control CPU usage on individual machines, whereas with GSX and Workstation it's a free for all.
Personally after trialling VMWARE ESX and GSX I actually prefer GSX. The "grow on use" disk type available for GSX is certainly better for small single use servers, flexibility to grow and keeps image sizes down for backups. I also really miss the client CD-ROM and floppy support which again is absent from ESX. The control panel also seems quite flakey.
Personally I feel that VMWARE have got the pricing structure wrong somehow. The only way to truely consolidate is to use big machines (20-30GB RAM) the problem here is that the cost of 4GB RAM modules is rather prohibitive, then add in some server redundancy and all the VMWARE licensing fees and it doesn't make sense any more. I'd actually prefer to pay a reasonable cost per active virtual machine, that way we can keep redundant hardware and move machines around as we see fit for performance or DR purposes.
I'm quite keen for GSX to be free or cheap, it'll then make cost sense to consider a VMWare strategy.
Jason.
Re:Good Move! (Score:2)
You may wish to hold off for a bit untill VMware decides to fix the PDflush/cache issue with newer linux kernels. Having the host take a crap every time multiple guests untar large files is beginning to give me the red arse.
An Enterprise shop that uses VMWare
BBH
Re:Good Move! (Score:2)
The specialized vmware kernel allows for some interesting things to be done: (overcommit of ram to vm, much closer to native speed, etc) that can't be done elsewhere; at first glance it looks the same, but under the covers they really are different beasts.
Re:Good Move! (Score:4, Informative)
According to the Data Sheets found here:
http://www.vmware.com/pdf/gsx_specs.pdf [vmware.com]
http://www.vmware.com/pdf/ws_specs.pdf [vmware.com]
GSX requires a "server" host, while Workstation does not:
GSX:
Workstation:
-Jim Barr
http://jimstips.com/ [jimstips.com]
Re:Good Move! (Score:2)
Which means that users running Windows XP cannot use GSX, and must use Workstation.
I haven't actually tried to install GSX on Windows XP, so I can't verify if an install fails or not.
Re:Good Move! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Good Move! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Good Move! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:WTF (Score:2)
Free Beer--You pretty much just rent beer anyway. They can stop serving it at any time and you are screwed (espically if you have become addicted). If it doesn't meet your needs in some small way, you're screwed.
Free Beer is probably not a good foundation for your business, they are only giving it to you to get you to buy better beer anyway, but it's certianly much better than paying if you're broke.
If you're flush--you might as well pay for it (tip) anyway to get the (bartenders) support.
Re:WTF (Score:5, Informative)
It used to be that on election day the political machines would send men out to all the bars to buy everyone beer to toast their candidate. The idea was that the free beer would lead them to vote for the guy. Since there is an implied obligation to vote their way, the beer wasn't really free. This is then contrasted (in the "free as in beer or free as in speech") to freedom of speech, which is obviously a different sort of "free". Likewise, "Live Free or Die" doesn't imply life without cost, but rather the cost of living free.
Re:I was 5 days from buying a copy (Score:2)