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GnuCash 1.9.0 Released 221

Posted by CmdrTaco from the congratulations-to-all dept.
Grendel Drago writes "The GnuCash team have released GnuCash 1.9.0. After literally years of waiting, GnuCash is now a GTK2 application. The current version is unstable, and testers are needed."
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GnuCash 1.9.0 Released More

GnuCash 1.9.0 Released

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  • Finally (Score:5, Funny)

    by Mrs. Grundy ( 680212 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @06:45PM (#14682426) Homepage
    FTFA:
    ...might crash unexpectedly at any point during runtime.

    Finally...software that is a perfect fit for my finances.

    • Fortunately, it's free as in beer! So even if it blows your finances you'll always be able to afford it. If need be you can run it on cheap legacy hardware. Now all you have to worry about is electricity...

    • Re:Finally (Score:2, Flamebait)

      by vivek7006 ( 585218 )
      Seriously, How can they *release* it if it is known to be unstable. Had it been a beta release, it would have made sense.

      • Re:Finally (Score:5, Informative)

        by david.gilbert ( 605443 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @06:55PM (#14682520)
        From TFA:

        The GnuCash development team proudly announces GnuCash 1.9.0 aka "We're gonna make it!", the first of several unstable 1.9.x releases of the GnuCash Open Source Accounting Software which will eventually lead to the stable version 2.0.0. This release is the very first of the gtk2-based GnuCash series, and is intended for developers and adventurous testers who want to help tracking down all those bugs that are still in there.

      • Re:Finally (Score:3, Informative)

        by sp0rk173 ( 609022 )
        It is a beta release. Odd numbered releases, like the linux kernel, are unstable in GnuCash. The poster just didn't mention that. 2.0 will be the stable release. This is nothing more than a preview/stress test of new features and the new interface.

        Clearly, you're a moron.

        • Re:Finally (Score:2, Funny)

          by neokushan ( 932374 )
          You were doing well at explaining that until you said "you're a moron", which is the part where I, and likely many others, lost all respect for you.
          • I think "moron" was shorthand for "someone who asks inane questions without reading the fine article". When you run into a sufficient number of said species, you start using a more compact way of referring to them.
      • Uhm, see, in Linux, and probably other things too, there are different releases. Some are called stable, because they are stable, some are called testing, because they are testing. Some are called unstable because...because...

    • Re:Finally (Score:3, Funny)

      by Horas ( 932560 )
      Well - dataloss is very dangerous. So bann all this "unstable software" and use software which calls home and saves all your vital private finance information by sending them to the author over the internet.

  • Just what I needed (Score:4, Funny)

    by cryptochrome ( 303529 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @06:46PM (#14682432) Journal
    A buggy, unstable money management program... BRILLIANT!

    • It's in BETA. As in use at your own risk, capiche?

    • Considering it's an open source application, why don't you help with it, test it and submit defects instead of just complaining about how a beta might be unstable?

    • With a web browser (Score:2, Insightful)

      by FS ( 10110 ) *
      Why I would want a web browser that is able to browse the Internet inside an application that holds all my financial information? Sounds Microsoft Money-ish to me. I'd prefer to keep applications separate so there is less possibility that a malicious website could pull financial information off my computer.
      • I would agree. They copied the wrong "feature" there. Who in their right mind browses the net like that?

        Of course in MS Money it was worse, considering the browser is IE-based, and therefore shares the security holes... Might as well just mass-mail your financial details...

      • Re:With a web browser (Score:5, Informative)

        by jsled ( 11433 ) on Friday February 10, 2006 @12:11AM (#14684817) Homepage
        Well, we use gtkhtml for rendering the reports, which emit html. While we used to have it setup to do "arbitrary" browsing, I'm pretty sure that's not working in 2.0. It [abritrary browsing from w/in GnuCash] is certainly not a direction the current devs are interested in going.
    • " unstable money management program... BRILLIANT!" I assume you ment this as a joke. Of course the authors of the program don't want it to be unstable. One very good way to make sure it is stable is to widely test it. You would be really stupid to test it using your real data.

      So here is YOUR chance to save the world from buggey unstable money managment. Download it, and send it well written reports of any bugs you find.

    • Re:Just what I needed (Score:4, Funny)

      by db32 ( 862117 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @08:16PM (#14683190) Journal
      Microsoft Money?

    • Sounds like MS Money! (Score:3, Informative)

      by Belial6 ( 794905 )
      I had to switch from MS Money to Quicken after I found a bug that incorrectly calculated values. I spent almost an hour trying to get through to someone at MS. When I finally did, I walked the tech through recreateing the bug on his machine. He was able to easily recreate the problem to verify that it was in fact a bug. The next time I heard from them was about three months later when they left a message on my machine saying that they found this old trouble ticket, and since I wasn't home, they were goi

  • Years of waiting... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gameboyhippo ( 827141 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @06:48PM (#14682453) Journal
    Who's been waiting? I liked the application the way it is. With something as important as finacial tracking, there's no way I'd want to test it. I don't need a pretty ui to tell me I'm broke.
    • Ever try compiling it, particularly on Slackware? I liked GnuCash when i tried it last, but trying to install it can be a real pain in the ass if you dont have a package for it available. Converting it to GTK in this instance was more than a cosmetic change, it was probably to get away from Gnucash's heavy dependencies on legacy libs and make future code changes more portable.

    • Re:Years of waiting... (Score:5, Informative)

      by jsled ( 11433 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @09:21PM (#14683706) Homepage
      The gtk1 libraries are soon simply not going to be distributed by distros, and with them software that depends on them. I too was fine with the UI, but we (GnuCash) would rather keep being distributed.
      • Well, unless someone keeps a GTK1 fork alive, I personally won't be using or distributing it. Not that that's any big loss - not like I've been contributing code to the project, after all. But it's a datapoint, and I know I'm not the only one. GTK2s forced windowsisms are definately NOT universally appreciated, or tolerated.
      • The gtk1 libraries are soon simply not going to be distributed by distros

        I hope so. And then xmms will be rewritted.

  • FINALLY! (Score:5, Informative)

    by VValdo ( 10446 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @06:51PM (#14682488)
    I've been waiting for this FOREVER. Another alternative for Linux is Moneydance [moneydance.com], a java app that apparently spoofs Windows quicken online banking on Macs (or Linux)..

    It would be nice for someone to do a mini-review or comparison of the different FOSS or FOSS-friendly financial packages, because frankly, I'm ready to leave Intuit.

    Oh, and speaking of which--y'all know that you can file your taxes for free [irs.gov], right? Or at least 70% of Americans can. Down from 100% last year, but still something.

    W

    • Re:FINALLY! (Score:5, Informative)

      by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Thursday February 09, 2006 @07:03PM (#14682598) Homepage
      Ask, and you shall recieve:
      1. The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I) [lwn.net]
      2. The Grumpy Editor's Guide to Personal Finance Managers, Part 2 [lwn.net]

      Courtasy of the always great LWN [lwn.net]. They are from September of last year.

    • Another alternative for Linux is Moneydance, a java app that apparently spoofs Windows quicken online banking on Macs (or Linux).

      What do you mean by "Spoofs?" I know the author put considerable effort into making it familiar for quicken users, but everything you see is pure Java code written by the author himself. I spoke with him on several occasions, and even managed to finagle a special version with plugin support out of him. Unfortunately, I never completed the project I wanted it for. (Creating a WAP i

      • Re:FINALLY! (Score:3, Informative)

        by VValdo ( 10446 )
        By spoofs, I mean--

        It's my understanding that Moneydance can appear to banks as if it were Windows Quicken, when really it's Moneydance running on a Mac, or whatever.

        If I'm wrong about this, someone correct me, because this is an important feature that I'd kinda need for my bank...

        W
    • They look ok, the GUI is fine, etc. I don't see any way of conversing with my bank, though, or any e-commerce system (billing systems, store accounts, etc) or commercial database (currency exchange, etc). Those would be great. Mondo support would be cool, if only someone used their cards, as it would be convenient to be able to download cash. (For those who don't remember them, Mondo released a "smartcard" called the Mondex, which stored cash on a smartcard. Unlike debit cards, it didn't connect to a bank,

      • Re:Financial programs (Score:4, Informative)

        by Noksagt ( 69097 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @08:33PM (#14683315) Homepage
        I don't see any way of conversing with my bank, though
        Gnucash supports QIF and OFX import.
        or commercial database (currency exchange, etc).
        It also has various places to download current price data like this--I get my stock prices this way.
        I'm not saying GnuCash is bad - it's very good at what it does, it's just not doing enough for what I'd want.
        It does more than you give it credit for.
    • I gave up. I switched to moneydance last week, and other than having to get used to the new UI, it's great. The ability to auto-download my credit card and bank info is totally worth the $30.
      • The ability to auto-download my credit card and bank info is totally worth the $30.
        But Gnucash also has OFX support to do this! I even have a cron job set to download both the info from my financial institutions and my stock quotes each day--whether I open GnuCash or not.

    • Re:FINALLY! (Score:5, Informative)

      by Noksagt ( 69097 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @08:23PM (#14683254) Homepage
      It would be nice for someone to do a mini-review or comparison of the different FOSS or FOSS-friendly financial packages, because frankly, I'm ready to leave Intuit.
      I maintain the FW Finance FAQ: Free and Open Source Finance Applications [fatwallet.com], which (1)offers this, (2)links to other (usually more detailed) comparisons, and (3)offers ongoing discussion on the topic.
    • The company I work for does online backups for Intuit, please don't leave, they'll be losing one of the smartest customers they probably have.
    • Keep waiting, the site has been Slashdotted.

  • Ask Bill (Score:3, Funny)

    by msbsod ( 574856 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @06:54PM (#14682515)
    Once it works for him, it certainly works for all of us.
  • Since it is slashdotted, here are some excerpts from the site:

    The GnuCash development team proudly announces GnuCash 1.9.0 aka "We're gonna make it!", the first of several unstable 1.9.x releases of the GnuCash Open Source Accounting Software which will eventually lead to the stable version 2.0.0. This release is the very first of the gtk2-based GnuCash series, and is intended for developers and adventurous testers who want to help tracking down all those bugs that are still in there.

    What's New in GnuCash 1.9.0?
    o Welcome to GnuCash 1.9.0 aka "We're gonna make it!" the first of several unstable releases of the GnuCash Open Source Accounting Software which will eventually lead to the stable version 2.0.0. This release is the very first of the gtk2-based GnuCash series and is intended for developers and adventurous testers who want to help tracking down bugs.
    o WARNING WARNING WARNING - Make sure you make backups of any files used in testing versions of GnuCash in the 1.9.x series. Although the developers go to great lengths to ensure that no data will be lost we cannot guarentee that your data will not be affected if for some reason GnuCash crashes in testing these releases.
    o PLEASE TEST TEST AND TEST SOME MORE any and all features important to you. Then post any bugs you find to bugzilla http://bugzilla.gnome.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Gn uCash [gnome.org]
    o If you have the urge to help beyond testing please get involved in the discussions on the GnuCash mailing lists which you will find at http://www.gnucash.org./ [www.gnucash.org] We especially need people to help with updating the documentation as all texts refer currently to the 1.8.x series. Please see http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Development [gnucash.org] on how to get involved.
    o PS I'm not going to list the many features changed or updated in this release because obviously there is so much that has changed.
    Caveats

    Caveats for testers:

    * Any 1.9.x version might crash unexpectedly at any point during runtime. If you test some serious work in a 1.9.x release, make sure you hit "Save" after ever non-trivial workstep.
    * Keep in mind that features which are not used in everyday work might crash unexpectedly at all times. This includes but is not limited to: graphical reports, scheduled transaction editor, price editor, financial calculator, OFX/QIF/HBCI import.
    * Especially all the new features might crash instantly on testing. This applies in particular to any of the budget-related features. We may always decide to disable such new features for the initial 2.0.0 release, and re-enable them in a later release.
    * The documentation is completely outdated. All help texts usually only refer to the 1.8.x series; please expect all descriptions in the help texts to be totally wrong when applied to the upcoming 1.9.x series. Everyone is invited to help improve the documentation; see http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Development [gnucash.org] on how to get involved.

    How can you help?

    * Testing: Test it and help us discover all bugs that might show up in there. Please enter each and every bug into bugzilla at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Gn uCash [gnome.org]
    * Translating: The new release comes with plenty of new translation strings. If you consider contributing a translation, we invite you to test this release already, but please keep in mind that we are not yet in our string freeze phase. Please check http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Translation_Status [gnucash.org] for updates on this, as we recommend to wait for the string
    • > PS I'm not going to list the many features changed or updated in this release because obviously there is so much that has changed

      Like what? I was eagerly awaiting this release, mainly because GTK1 sucks on OS X (no umlauts in my experience). So far, the only changes I noticed (besides the GTK2 switch) is budgeting and closing of a financial year, both of which I haven't tried so far. Plus a dubious UI change by presenting account windows as tabs and not as real windows, meaning you can only see one

  • GnuCrash? (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Am I the only one who read GnuCrash?
  • I've been using GNUCash on Linux for awhile, and have wanted to also use it on Windows, as I've found it to be better than Quicken and the like. I looked for a Windows port, but the only thing I found were some messages saying something to the effect of "Wait until it's on GTK2."

    With this news, it looks like a port might finally be reachable. This may be the next great OSS app that I can show off to friends and family, and I'll be able to use it on my Windows laptop. Here's to the GNUCash team for all th

    • Re:GNUCash Ported Elsewhere? (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "I've been using GNUCash on Linux for awhile, and have wanted to also use it on Windows, as I've found it to be better than Quicken"

      Although more suited to business, you may want to check out sql-ledger. It's multi-platform capable, free as in beer, and in every way an equal to Quickbooks:

      http://www.sql-ledger.org/ [sql-ledger.org]

  • Special Computer (Score:4, Funny)

    by Blue Mandelbrot ( 951902 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @07:10PM (#14682660)
    Maybe Bill can finally have his taxes processed on a 'normal' computer now that GnuCash 1.9.0 is out?

    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/01/141823 3 [slashdot.org]

  • KMyMoney (Score:5, Informative)

    by Just Some Guy ( 3352 ) <kirk+slashdot@strauser.com> on Thursday February 09, 2006 @07:19PM (#14682740) Homepage Journal
    I gave up waiting and switched to KMyMoney [sourceforge.net] about a year ago. It did everything that my relatively simple personal finances require, plus supports nifty stuff like using KIO slaves to load and save its data files (so I can use sftp:// [ftp] from work to view my checking account on my home machine).

    Now, I have nothing bad to say about GnuCash. It's a good program and served me well when I used it. I only mention KMyMoney as an alternative worth considering.

    • It was about three years ago in February that I decided to switch to BitchBetterHaveMyMoney, and I've never looked back. The application is rock solid. And it keeps track of not some of my money, but all of my money.

      Truth be told, their motto is proof: "Through rain, sleet, snow, or dark of night: BitchBetterHaveMyMoney."

    • I gave up waiting and switched to KMyMoney

      I hope it didn't actually K your money.

  • Woohoo! (Score:3, Informative)

    by TheDarkener ( 198348 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @07:23PM (#14682782) Homepage
    GNUCash is a *fantastic* finance tool. I use it every day to keep track of my tech consulting businesse's bank accounts, expenses, liabilities, and so on. It's absolutely great. It's so nice having tools like this that not only gives you equal (or greater) power than it's commercial alternatives, but is free (as in beer) so small and new businesses don't have to pay an arm and a leg to simply track their small business finances!

    Horray!! Thank you, GNUCash team!!

  • The Kot (Score:5, Interesting)

    by msbsod ( 574856 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @07:46PM (#14682941)
    Here is a little example from the Gnucash source code:
    char *
    libgncmod_tax_us_LTX_gnc_module_path(void) {
    #ifdef LOCALE_SPECIFIC_TAX
    const char *thislocale = setlocale(LC_ALL, NULL);
    if (strncmp(thislocale, "de_DE", 5) == 0)
    return g_strdup("gnucash/tax/de_DE");
    else
    #endif
    return g_strdup("gnucash/tax/us");
    }
    In plain English, this means if you know only your little backyard, then there is just US. Otherwise your world may include Germany, and the rest is, of course, US. Now, some people may find this funny. Others might cry. I am just confused. How can they write such code? It should read if Germany ... else if US ... else if ... else UNKNOWN, STOP! (or use perhaps a switch/case/default statement).

    The last time I put numbers like the shown 5 into code was almost three decades ago in a Basic program. I have seen much better GNU software and hope someone removes the word GNU from this project's name.

    No offense, but I thought financial planning software should comply with higher standards.

    • Re:The Kot (Score:4, Informative)

      by ChaosDiscord ( 4913 ) * on Thursday February 09, 2006 @08:49PM (#14683429) Homepage Journal
      You're not fairly depicting the situation. Let's take a look at the source in question. Sadly the SVN server seems to be crushed at the moment, but this is representative [gnucash.org]. The filename is "gncmod-tax-us.c". The header reads "module definition/initialization for us tax info" Conclusion: this isn't a module intended for general consumption, but is US specific.

      So, what's German tax information doing in there? Let's look a little further into the file where this exact same technique is repeated in another function... This is a very simple hack that loads the (new, special) German tax definition file in a German locale, or (default) loads the previous US tax file. */

      A clear answer: this is a hack not really intended for general consumption. I'm guessing someone is experimenting with integrating the German data, but it isn't quite ready yet. LOCALE_SPECIFIC_TAX may be a "this is under development and will hopefully eventually work, but not now" setting. Little unused hackery and experiments live in most mainstream code, commented or #ifdefed out. It's fairly common in proprietary software because the end user has little to no chance of learning that they're there.

      It looks like this little hack is present, if no enabled, in the trunk of their repository. That's not good and it should probably be removed (or marked more clearly so it doesn't accidentally ship). But it's hardly a Major Problem.

    • No offence, but maybe you should look up the definition of strncmp(3) before mouthing off in public.

  • Not happy with any of them (Score:3, Interesting)

    by chriguhose ( 676441 ) on Thursday February 09, 2006 @08:06PM (#14683112)
    I've been into Personal Finance Manager appliction for a while. Just for fun, because now that i actually make money i would like to manage my accounts in a proper way. Unfortunatly i've found that not to be easy at all.

    Tried with:
    GnuCash
    Quicken
    and now with MS Money

    None of them really do what i want.

    GnuCash had double entry accounting which i think is just much to manage for my personal finances. Support to import transaction was incomplete back then (only QIF format worked, and QIF is a PoS). Now it seems that they improved on that but still the double entry system makes me nervous.
    Quicken is a buggy, ad invested piece of software. Whenever you click on a "function" you're send to some third party website. Their move to not allow import of QIF for certain types of accounts gave me the rest and i quit.
    Money is not as ad invested, but buggy as well. But right know i still kinda like it, except that some general functionalities are missing that i really would like to see in the future.

    What's missing in all of these PFM's is that they don't take stupid work away from me, they should help me, not give me more work than necessary.
    Example: My Payee information that i download in the transactions of the banks looks like encrypted bullocks to me. There has to be a way to name these things in user friendly way.
    The automatic categorization of transaction lacks functionality as well. It should be possible to define rules. Like: i went to Safeway at noon on a weekday -> Lunch Category, otherwise Groceries
    Furthermore i like to have the whole thing setup as a service on my computer, it wouldn't take too much... The service would then automatically log into my bank accounts everyday and download latest transactions. Maybe even sent me an e-mail or text message that i should maybe not use credit card XYZ anymore, because i'm about to bounce the credit limit.
    There is more and i just wish i could see any sort of progress in their yearly releases, but i've given up on that.

    • GnuCash had double entry accounting which i think is just much to manage for my personal finances.

      That's what you think now. Then your demands change, perhaps you want to maintain a small business. Double entry accounting (which GnuCash can also do in the background) is the right way to handle things.

  • What is wrong with all (most) of you?? All I see are flames here, toward GNUCash, how blah blah, it's unstable, blah blah, use KMyMoney, blah blah, the code is lame... I've been using it for 2 years straight and haven't had a problem ONCE. No database corruption, no corruption of any kind. THERE is your proof that GNUCash won't fuck up your finances.

    I've learned so much about finances with GNUCash it's amazing - much more, I'm sure, than using some other program. The layout is very LOGICAL - maybe not the e
  • In the meantime jGnash [sf.net] has reached a level where I can have a .jar of it on my usb stick and balance my checkbook on any machine under any OS. Darn useful. It still isn't quite as nice as Quicken, but it is completely transparent in the way that it does work.

    Whatever computer you run it on stores enough info in your home directory so it automatically opens your account file from the stick too of course. Good news is that it can import GNUCash files.

    Projects like gaim have taken gtk2 based apps and po

  • Web Version (Score:2, Interesting)

    by alohatiger ( 313873 )
    Quickbooks Pro has a web based version that's pretty nice. Pros: great tech support. Cons: $25/month and only works in internet explorer.

    I would pay a monthly fee for a standards compliant web based version of Quicken.
  • I use GnuCash and I like it, it is really a great tool. Kudos to developers for 1.9.0!
  • After literally years of waiting, GnuCash is now a GTK2 application. The current version is unstable

    Hell, not even Microsoft can do it that bad. This sucks.

  • Mac binaries? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mh101 ( 620659 ) on Friday February 10, 2006 @02:54AM (#14685520)
    I wonder if they or someone else will release Mac binaries finally?

    Yes, I know you can install GnuCash using Fink, as that's what I do currently. But it would be so much more convenient to be able to download a standalone GnuCash.app like you can with Gimp, Frozen Bubble, OpenOffice, AbiWord, and others.

  • Donating to the Gnucash project (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jroysdon ( 201893 ) on Friday February 10, 2006 @04:00AM (#14685703)
    I've been using Gnucash for close to two years now. It was the final step to me ditching my Windows install, since I was using Quicken before.

    Gnucash isn't perfect, but it's got everything I need to keep track of things. I do all my entry manually, although I have imported a few times just testing (I prefer my own formatting and such and don't care which gas station, etc., just that it was a gas station).

    I figure if I'd been upgrading Quicken versions, I'd have spent at least $50. Plus, I would like be able to link to a Windows port on my Free GPL Programs [roysdon.net] page which I list all the apps I use that others should check out on Windows.

    I decided to donate [sourceforge.net] to the cause. Hopefully others who use Gnucash will consider tipping the developers [sourceforge.net]. I'm sure even $5, especially if it's dozens of folks, will help motivate them.

    I wish I had the time to bug-test v1.9, but I don't, so I'll tip a little more ;-)'

  • Free, my arse! (Score:4, Informative)

    by PinkyDead ( 862370 ) on Friday February 10, 2006 @05:55AM (#14686014) Journal
    There was a /. article about two weeks ago about Novell listing apps to be ported or something like that and at the top was Quicken/Quickbooks, which I use and am well pissed off that I can't get it to work on Linux.

    One reply suggested that GnuCash was a viable alternative to quicken. My problem with GnuCash (or really with Quickbooks) was that I couldn't export the accounts from Quickbooks into GnuCash. Well anyway, at the time of the Novell article, we had just hit our year end, so we had P&L and Balance sheets for everything.

    So, perfect time to try GnuCash, just resetting everything off the Balance Sheet. Anyway, through this process I discovered that Quickbooks had 'lost' some of my previous VAT payments. Added them all up - £400 for me (don't worry I triple checked - no messing with the tax man). So GnuCash wasn't free for me - they actually paid me to use it. Cheers, GnuCash!

    I miss the simple 'VAT Report' from QuickBooks - it's quite tricky in GnuCash. But if it was costing me £400 - I can handle the minor inconvenience.

    I'm really looking forward to the 1.9.0 - hopefully, some more of the inconveniences will disappear and maybe the interface will be a little less GTK1.

  • Quicken 2004 on Crossover (Score:2, Informative)

    by Oxide ( 92607 )
    I've been using Quicken 2004 on linux through crossover for a while now. I'm very satisfied with it. It is stable enough for me to do everything I need to do. I see little to no reason at all to use GUNCash until it is stable enough.

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