TiVo Selling Data on Users' Watching Habits 244
Gyppo writes "The San Francisco Chronicle reports that TiVo is collecting and selling data on what parts of broadcasts people are rewinding for review and what commercials they are skipping. The data collection is part of a service the company provides to advertisers and television networks, collecting anonymous data on their users' commercial-watching habits. The data they provide is a random subset of their overall userbase, detailing which commercials are skipped and which are actually watched. The article mentions the possibility for privacy abuse, but with this application of technology Tivo is not providing access to what any one individual user watches via the service."
Not surprising. (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe a Good Thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Note who Tivo considers its "clients" to be... (Score:5, Insightful)
It would be nice if Tivo would think of its loyal customers as clients rather than a captive audience to sell data about and to force feed advertisements to. I think it is a legitimate point to think that Tivo might wish to consider putting its retail customers first, since without them they are nothing. The attempts to monitize their customers as if they are an asset owned by Tivo seems like a good way to alienate retail customers and to potentially hurt Tivo sales.
They've done this since the beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
Please note, that the supermarkets do exactly the same thing. Why do you think loyalty cards exist?
TiVo can make life better for us (Score:5, Insightful)
I think an end result (and to some an unexpected result) is TiVo can make life better for everyone with this "service". I've always been a huge fan of TiVo, since they arrived on the scene, so forgive some obvious bias.
How can they make it better? Tivo can supply information to providers of content, and advertisers more valuable than any surveys or polls. Tivo can give real time info (rolled up) of what and how viewers watch their show (and ads). An end result would (potentially) be eventual extinction of really annoying and bad ads... by dint of the fact noone watches them when given an opportunity to skip.
The same goes for content... if noone records a show, or watches it on Tivo buffer, its well earned demise can be accelerated.
Tivo demonstrated just how granular their data are by their disclosure that the Janet Jackson "clip" was the most replayed segment of the Super Bowl... wth? they actually know down to a few seconds of snippets.
Yeah, there may be privacy issues there... but there are privacy issues everywhere, even when there were (are there still?) Nielsen families. My gut tells me there isn't too much interesting in viewers habits other than what they're watching and how much of they're watching. The game is about making money and selling product.
Tivo finally gives the providers feedback that I'd wished for years ago... immediate, and absolute.
Danger of abuse (Score:5, Insightful)
This attack may come from someone who cracks the system and uses it to spy on others, or the attack may come from law-suits which (for whatever reason I can't currently imagine) demand that TiVo turn over records of what a particular person was watching. Or maybe this attack will never come.
I would argue that avoiding these kinds of systems is not paranoid... moreover I would argue that avoiding them is necessary. Do not let yet another system be co-opted to monitor you! Even if it is 'for a good cause' (and I'm not convinced that advertising is 'a good cause') it can eventually be used against you.
In short, I'm just going to add this to the list of reasons I prefer MythTV. My device, my control, my privacy.
Re:Not surprising. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't see a problem, as long as they don't release any individually identifiable data.
ahhh this is old (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:in CCCP (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Remember Janet Jackson? (Score:3, Insightful)
This distinction is wrong (Score:2, Insightful)
This distinction is wrong. Anonymity and privacy are two completely separate concepts. A person's privacy can easily be abused even if his data is kept anonymous. Most people understand information being kept "private" to mean used only for the limited purposes for which they disclosed it, and not re-disclosed in any manner, anoymous or otherwise, unless they agree.
The reason for this is obvious - even anonymous data can be used against you in a manner which is adverse to your own interests. Do you really think Tivo is using this data to help people or further those people's interests? No, Tivo is trying to use this "anonymous" data in a way which is at odds with their users' interests - trying to figure out how to defeat any given individual's commercial-skipping, for example.
Please don't confuse anonymity and privacy. De-identified data can still be used in many ways which are adverse to your interests.
Re:Note who Tivo considers its "clients" to be... (Score:5, Insightful)
What bothers me about TiVo is that they are in a conflict-of-interest situation. They have people buying TiVos (and subscriptions) on the one hand, and they have advertisers and media companies on the other. Let's face it: the needs and wants of the two groups are not usually aligned. At some point, they may decide that the needs of the media companies are more profitable than the needs of the users. (I would argue that this monitoring move is one example.) I would prefer not to sign up with companies that undertaken these conflict-of-interest scenarios.
Obviously it's up to each consumer to decide whether the service TiVo is offering is worth it. Suffice it to say, I'm not convinced.
Re:Old news? (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, if they were selling my individual data, that would tick me off.
Re:Note who Tivo considers its "clients" to be... (Score:2, Insightful)
YOU are the product. Your eyeballs are sold to the highest bidder.
The media companies, who pay huge amounts of money, ARE the clients.
What do you expect? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh come on. Everyone with a TiVo (and even those without) should know that TiVo collects this type of anonymous, aggregate data. Haven't they done that since the beginning? Did you really think they wouldn't provide that data to third parties?
And frankly, I think it's a good thing. You guys bitch and moan when your favorite TV shows get cancelled because the Nielsen families' interests aren't representative of your own. You guys bitch and moan about advertisers not making more interesting commercials. Well, here you have TiVo, making geek-friendly devices collecting television data about shows and commercials that tech enthusiasts actually watch, and now you guys bitch and moan about that too.
Re:And why am I not surprised? (Score:1, Insightful)
Choicepoint is building the largest databases in the world that contain all sorts of very personal information. So it wouldn't surprise me if they tried to get their hands on this data as well.
Re:They've done this since the beginning (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:in CCCP (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm in total agreement. I thought it was common knowledge from the start that this was part of TiVo's business model, and is a large part of the reason I've never entertained a TiVo purchase. I just can't see paying a monthly fee to provide a company with data that they're going to turn around and sell. I'll stay with my MythTV system, thanks, and the more-than-reasonable terms that Zap2It offers for providing program listings.
Re:Note who Tivo considers its "clients" to be... (Score:4, Insightful)
Tivo is under no obligation to lower prices to the consumer. The only thing that lowers them is competition.
Usually competition is necessary to lower prices, but not always. For example, if their viewing data was valuable enough, it would make sense to lower prices in order to get more people to sign up, and thus have more data to sell. Take the cable Disney Channel -- it used to be subscription service, then they figured out it was better to have more viewers than the subscription revenue.
Re:And why am I not surprised? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Old news? (Score:2, Insightful)
Its exactly the opposite. They'll work on ways of making you see more of the stuff you'd like to skip.
Re:They wan't it both ways... (Score:3, Insightful)
Agreed, but finding equilibrium is important because if the equation becomes too lopsided the companies disappear (less content) or the viewers disappear (less marketable population). Neither situation is a truly good thing.
Sure, you could get a dial-up ISP for that cost, but I sincerely doubt you can get basic cable for that price (any links?). You could look up shows for free on ad supported sites and then manually program a recorder - or the TiVo unit can automatically download the listing and make sure that my shows are always recorded. I'm not paying $13/month for a program guide, I'm paying $13/month for the whole service package.
Wrong. You seem to think that if TiVo gets worse their subscribers don't have other options. Almost every cable provider in my area has their own DVRs, there's also MythTV and Freevo. When the cost of TiVo, both subscription and "pain" from ads, exceeds the value I get from the system I can simply cancel my subscription. If enough people follow suit, TiVo would obviously have to rethink their strategy.
Remember, as much as you hate advertisements they are the ones footing the bill for any shows you like. The measly "$13" that you think basic cable costs simply provides you access to the content. If sponsors start bailing on TV shows because they can't generate ad revenue any more, how do you think new content will be generated?
Re:Note who Tivo considers its "clients" to be... (Score:2, Insightful)
Think about it this way: the advertisers want you to see the ads. That's what they are paying for: your attentions. That makes it in the best interest of the media company to provide news, entertainment, or what have you that people like. Specifically, that the people the advertisers are trying to reach like. That's why you see beer ads during football and detergent ads during Oprah.
People objecting to TiVo selling aggregated use behavior data to advertisers seem short-sighted to me. If, for example, Nissan learns that I don't like their stupid Titan ads with the too-loud heavy metal music, maybe they'll change the ads. As long as the data is not specific to me, as long as it's general, this in no way hurts me. Indeed it helps me.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you, but I think worrying about this data being sold is a bit too paranoid.
Re:Privacy is still important (Score:3, Insightful)
I've read all of the replies, but I choose you to respond to as I thought yours was the most well-thought out. Not a single reply told me anything I didn't already know, however - I am aware of all of the issues brought up. I just think that there is a time to stand on principle, and this isn't one of them.
I never said "let them go through everything of mine...etc." I did say that when data comes in or leaves my house via a cable, I understand that that data is not secure from anyone. We are talking about what one watches on TV. I will repeat again : I do not care if someone knows what I watch on TV. I guess from the replies that some people are porn watchers - I don't do PPV, so I can't comment on that. Now, maybe you email "secret" things that could get you in trouble, but I don't. I'm not a criminal, and I doubt many people are interested in my bitching to my friend about The View. Here is the important part : if I *WAS* trying to hide information, I would damn well know better enough than to put it in an email and send it out from my IP.
This does not meant I *want* everyone reading my email, or think it's even right; but it is a fact of the technological world we live in. I learned this long ago. You simply don't say anything in email that you don't wish someone else to see. Now, I'm not talking petty BS, but anyone that trusts email with vital information is a fool. It is simply not secure in the first place, so if a hacker can find your "deleted" email out there, don't tell me anyone in the gov't couldn't as well. It's just common sense to me, really.
I actually understand and defend privacy rights quite often. However, in this case, I truly believe television data is wholly innocuous. Some paranoid person below said, "Yeah, but what if the FBI sees me watching a show on illegal drugs! OMG!" I'm sorry, but if the FBI is running around checking who watches "The History of Drugs" on the History Channel and then getting warants for peoples houses to search for drugs...I'll eat my left nut. This isn't to say somehow, somewhere this data could not be used against you if you commit a crime or whatnot - but in this case, that risk is worth the benefits of owning this OPTIONAL PRODUCT.
So I know many people thought my initial post was ignorant, but it actually was very well thought out in the sense that I know what people "think I should think" about this, but the realist in me just doesn't buy it. I simply don't believe that television watching data is important, and I'm actually glad the companies know what I watch since I'm not a Nielsen family. I know that people sit on "principle" that every thing is sacred, but I just don't care. Television is so innocuous that you really can't make assumptions based on what is watched - I'll grant that I didn't think about Porn in my first post (though I think it's funny people would be ashamed of it - if you like it, the vanilla kind you can get over cable can't be that damaging LOL), but other than that : are their Satan Worship shows? Are there "Join the KKK" shows? What is this awful TV that people are watching that they are afraid of? I don't believe anything that damaging is actually broadcast, which I think is my main reason for not giving a crap.
I understand the point; it's contextual. Since there is no such thing as an illegally broadcast TV station or program that your TiVo could record, there is no single show that is somehow "wrong" to watch - that was my point in bringing up Raven, it's what people are ashamed to say they enjoy, not a show that is "wrong" to watch. The problem is if someone had this data and began making assumptions about you based on it; the individal parts of the data are irrelevant on their own.
You see, I know people label me as one of those "if you aren't doing anything wrong, then why hide" people, and I admit it probably sounds that way. I'm truly not in most cases. But I also know when to pick my battles, and TiVo simply isn't one of them f