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The Internet

Why the Semantic Web Will Fail 179

Jack Action writes "A researcher at Canada's National Research Council has a provocative post on his personal blog predicting that the Semantic Web will fail. The researcher notes the rising problems with Web 2.0 — MySpace blocking outside widgets, Yahoo ending Flickr identities, rumors Google will turn off its search API — and predicts these will also cripple Web 3.0." From the post: "The Semantic Web will never work because it depends on businesses working together, on them cooperating. There is no way they: (1) would agree on web standards (hah!) (2) would adopt a common vocabulary (you don't say) (3) would reliably expose their APIs so anyone could use them (as if)."
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Why the Semantic Web Will Fail

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  • by kalidasa ( 577403 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @07:41AM (#18426951) Journal
    One of the problems is lack of standardization, and one of the symptoms is Yahoo! normalizing Flickr's user accounts with its own?
  • by jrumney ( 197329 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @07:42AM (#18426959)

    The semantic web will fail because it is too complex and noone outside the academic community working on it really understands it. The ad-hoc tagging systems and microformats Web 2.0 has brought are good enough for most people, and much simpler for the casual web developer to understand.

  • Web services (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Knutsi ( 959723 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @07:48AM (#18426983)
    Doesn't Web 2.0 reach a "critical mass" as some point, where busineese will no longer be able to not cooperate? Of course, it all gets very fragile even then...
  • by patio11 ( 857072 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @07:51AM (#18426999)
    It was created to solve a problem we had when everyone was using Hotbot and Altavista, but people are trying to introduce it into a world where everyone is using Google. (And Wikipedia. And all that Web 2.0 junk.)

    I don't need you to mark "This page is a REVIEW of a CELL PHONE that has the NAME iPhone" anymore. All I need to do is Google "iPhone review" or hop on over to Amazon. Problem pretty freaking solved from my perspective.
  • by ooze ( 307871 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @07:51AM (#18427001)
    Only way to set an industry standard is, to get so fast so big in a new market/technology that everybody has to follow.
    Problem is, when you get so big so fast, there are almost neccessarily major flaws in the designs.
    Problem is, you never get rid of them again.
  • Google (Score:2, Insightful)

    by c_fel ( 927677 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @07:55AM (#18427023) Homepage
    What are those rumors about Google who would be closing their search API ? Are we talking about the boxes we can put on our sites to make a search in Google ? I thought the add shown besides the results were their main revenue : Why the hell would they close it ?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @07:55AM (#18427025)
    Is the semantic web supposed to be a success in the present times?
  • Why it will fail (Score:5, Insightful)

    by squoozer ( 730327 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @07:56AM (#18427031)

    It might fail for the reasons given (no I've not read the full article yet - naturally) but personally I think it will fail simply because it's too much work for the amount of payback. It would be great if one day magically over night all our data was semantically marked up but that's not going to happen. The reality of it is that we will have to mark up the majority of content by hand. Even then inter-ontology mappings are so difficult that I'm not sure the system would be much use.

    Perhaps worse than that though is the prospect of semantic spamming. It would be impossible to trust the semantic mark up in a document unless you could actually process the document and understand it. What would be the point in the mark up in that case?

  • What is it anyway? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mwvdlee ( 775178 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @07:58AM (#18427045) Homepage
    So what is this semantic web / web 2.0 thing anyway?

    Sure, we're all seeing community sites, blogs, tagging, etc. But each of those sites is an individual site, and their only connections seem to be plain HTML links. Community sites don't really allow collaboration, blogs are standardized personal web pages and who here uses tags to actually find information? All these things might warrant a "Web 1.0 patch 3283" label, but is it really a new type of web? Is it the type and magnitude of paradigm shift that the first web was? It only seems like people are just becoming more aware of the possibilities of the same web it was 10 years ago.
  • Re:Far out! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @08:16AM (#18427135)
    Part of the reason that software development is getting worse is because of all the layering that is being done these days.

    Yes, some degree of abstraction and layering is necessary when developing software. But it must be kept to a sane level. These layers must be developed, ideally, by the very same people or project group, to help ensure a certain level of quality. And sometimes when our layering tower gets too tall, we need to kick out the middle.

    Take a typical Web site today. It involves HTML and JavaScript, which is displayed by a web browser. If you're using a browser like Firefox, your web page is in turn displayed via XUL. XUL runs on top of the Gecko rendering engine. Gecko runs on top of a toolkit like GTK+. GTK+ runs on top of GDK and GLib. GDK runs on top of Xlib. Xlib runs on top of C standard library and the underlying operating system. Only now do we get anywhere near the actual hardware.

    So we end up with an extremely tall serial tower, where failure occurs if even just one component runs into trouble. The Semantic Web is partially susceptible to this sort of a problem, too. Look at its technology stack [wikimedia.org]. If any one of the libraries that implements such functionality fails, your whole Semantic Web stack fails.

  • by AutopsyReport ( 856852 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @08:26AM (#18427187)
    I would agree. The current idea of what constitutes Web 2.0 doesn't fit the label. If I had to propose a new definition for Web 2.0, it would be the beginning shift of desktop applications to the Web. I just can't consider a trend in graphics, tagging, and social networking as a major advancement in the Web. Yeah, it's cool and it can be fun, but you said it best when you called it the "3282 patch". That's a more appropriate title for what's going on.

    What's really cool is the beginning of desktop to web applications. There are a lot of innovative applications floating around -- mostly niche (being able to create a .doc document online is not really interesting) -- that allow you (or firms) to do things they couldn't do before. These applications have had impressive effects on their users. Despite the many shortcomings of the Web, I truly believe niche applications are more deserving of the Web 2.0 title.
  • One word: SPAM (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ngunton ( 460215 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @08:34AM (#18427247) Homepage
    The thing the academics who push the semantic web fail to consider (most of the time) is that the Real World does not function like their Ideal World. In the Ideal World, everybody cooperates and works together to produce something of value for all mankind. So we get lots of correctly and appropriately marked up pages that give useful information on what's stored therein.

    But in the Real World, any online system that is used by a large enough number of people will eventually become attractive for spammers and scammers to defile and twist to their own purposes. So you'll get a deluge of pages that appear to be useful reviews of digital cameras (and are marked up as such) but in fact simply go to a useless "search" page that has lots of link farm references.

    And if you say "Ok, so we don't trust the author of the page, we have someone else do it"... then who? Who's going to do all the work? Answer: Nobody. AI is nowhere near being smart enough for this. Keyword searching is, unfortunately, here to stay. If you trust the author to do the markup, then the spammers have a field day. If you say "Only trusted authors" then the system will still fail, due to laziness on most people's part - if a system isn't trivial to implement and involves some kind of "authentication" or "authorization" then nobody will use it, period. The Web succeeded in the first place because anybody anywhere could just stick up a Web server and publish pages, and it was immediately visible to the whole world.

    The Semantic Web will fail for the same reason that the "meta" tag failed in HTML: Any system that can be abused by spammers, will be abused.

    So, the Semantic Web, which is all about helping people find stuff, will fail. Not because of any technological shortcomings (it's all very nice in theory), but simply because we as people won't work together to make it work. Well, a small number of people could work together, but as that number got larger, until it reaches the point of being useful, it will automatically get to the tipping point where it becomes worthwhile for the spammers to jump in and foul it all up.
  • Obvious (Score:3, Insightful)

    by AlXtreme ( 223728 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @08:35AM (#18427263) Homepage Journal
    The Semantic Web is a solution in search of a problem.

    No matter how cool your RDF/OWL ontologies are, the real world is perfectly happy with plain XML/CSV. If there isn't an obvious benefit, people won't switch.
  • Re:Far out! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @08:37AM (#18427281)
    I beg to differ, the problem is that it is indeed a white collar job, but put in the hands of blue collars like cheap monkeys on typewriters (hence the result).
    It may not be rocket science, but it still is pure logic.
    And casual people and logic don't mix very well.
  • by tbriggs6 ( 816403 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @08:38AM (#18427299) Homepage
    Have you ever read the original presentation of work by Codd on relational databases? How about the RFC standards on TCP/IP? How about the original presentation and arguments on the inclusion of Interrupts in a processor? Boy, those were so easy to understand and obvious that they were even published at all. The process of science is to push the state of the art; which by definition is new and novel. This is the job of the computer science researcher. It is left to others to examine the research and reformulate in terms that mere mortals can understand. If you understand the concepts behind the OSI layers, Lambda expressions, or symmetric multi-processing, thank a computer science educator who abstracted and distilled the hell of the science and research and packaged in such a way that you can understand it and maybe even use it. To claim that failure is imminent because the current presentation of the Semantic Web is too complex is nonsense.
  • by Chris_Jefferson ( 581445 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @08:47AM (#18427373) Homepage
    All those spam and sales people will probably still tag their page with "review", the same way people used to stick anything and everything in META tags. The semantic web won't make people tell the truth about their pages...
  • by crimperman ( 225941 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @08:59AM (#18427475) Homepage

    We're fast moving from "this is a big red piece of text" to "this is a heading" thanks to CSS allowing us to state that headings should be big and red.

    Fast? CSS has allowed us to do that since 1996 [w3.org]! :o)

    I doubt we're ever going to be in a position where every site is marked up with RDF metadata, but a lot of sites are now offering APIs that are good enough to do the job, sure we're unlikely to have a universal API that allows us to query any website on the internet and extract the data we're looking for, but realistically what would that actually gain us?

    People used similar arguments for HTML standards when the (first) browser wars were on. The purpose of a standard is (supposed to be) that sites interacting with each other (as is an ideal of Web 2.0) can do so without specific coding for each site you interact with. Hence RSS aggregators can grab any RSS feed and display it. If "Web 2.0" is going to be as useful as the web itself then it needs to avoid splitting into different APIs and formats.

    I think we're going to see a lot more almost-standards around the web...

    And, for me, this is part of the problem.
  • by Wah ( 30840 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @09:17AM (#18427661) Homepage Journal
    For one thing, Google's results are much too noisy. For another, it relies on keywords occurring on pages, and that's rather primitive

    No it doesn't. The genius of google was that it relies on people linking to pages talking about keywords. And uses various tools to identify and promote good linkers.

    But the most important reason is that it would be much cooler to have a web where you could say "give me a list of all the goals scored by Romario" and have it list them for me.

    That's a curious thing to ask for, since the first google result is a story about how there is a good bit of controversy surrounding Romario's "1,000" goals. The problem is your request is to vague and doesn't define all the words within itself (i.e. does a goal scored as teenager in a different league count?).

    This goal is quite a bit higher than many realize, as you could get 10 people (5 of them experts) in a room and they wouldn't necessarily be able to agree on the "right" answer.

    To ask, or even demand, that computers do the same task as a background function is ludicrious, IMHO (at least when applied to a universal context).
  • by radtea ( 464814 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @09:26AM (#18427769)

    `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

    `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

    `The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'

    Lewis Carol had it right [sabian.org], and George Orwell agreed with him [wikipedia.org]: "Which is to be master" is the question that matters.

    In free societies, everyone is master, and our language is conditioned only by the minimal need to communicate approximately with others. Beyond that, we are free to impose whatever semantics we want, and we do this to a far greater extent than most people realize. As a friend who works in GIS once said, "If I send out a bunch of geologists to map a site and collate their data at the end of the day, I can tell you who mapped where, but not what anyone mapped." Individual meanings of terms as simple as "granite" or "schist" are sufficiently variable that even extremely concrete tasks are very difficult.

    Imposing uniform ontologies on any but the most narrowly defined fields is impossible, and even within those fields nominally standard vocabularies will be used differently by rapidly-dividing "cultural" subgroups within the workers in the field.

    The semantic web is doomed to fail because language is far more highly personalized than anyone wants to believe. I think this is a good thing, because the only way to impose standardized meanings on terms would be to impose standardized thinking on people, and if that were possible someone would have done it by now. Whereas we know, despite millennia of attempts, no such standardization is possible, except in very small groups over a very specialized range of concepts.

  • by Niten ( 201835 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @09:36AM (#18427861)

    You're missing the point. It's not that the current "presentation" of the Semantic Web is too complex; the problem is that actually creating the Semantic Web is too complex a task for most Web content creators to be interested in.

    Essentially, the Semantic Web asks users to explicitly state relations between concepts and ideas to make up for our current lack of an AI capable of discerning such things for itself from natural human language. But let's face it, the average Joe writing his weblog or LiveJournal entries - or even a more technical user such as myself - would generally not be interested in performing this time-consuming task, even with the aid of a fancy WordPress plugin or other automated process. This is what the parent meant by saying it's just "too complicated".

    The way to realize the Semantic Web is to advance AI technology to the point where it becomes an automated process. Anything less would require too much manual labor to take off.

  • Re:One word: SPAM (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Arslan ibn Da'ud ( 636514 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @09:36AM (#18427863) Homepage
    s/Semantic Web/Wikipedia/g;

    I believe all your arguments have been used to explain why Wikipedia will fail. Well, it hasn't failed yet.
  • It's relative (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tbannist ( 230135 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @09:51AM (#18428041)
    This is the real world, most things aren't total successes or total failures.

    Most likely the symantic web will fail to achieve all it's objectives but achieve some of them, and may eventually rise again after it's failed. This is the nature of progress. Good ideas that fail are usually resurrected later. However the blogger is probably right, as long as the symantic web is going to be "handed" to us by a group of established corporations it will most likely never succeed, there's too much incentive for back stabbing in that top-down implementation. For it to succeed it needs to be so obvious that there's more money and power available by playing nice that all but the most black hearted capitalists will play nice. We have to be aware that people like spammers exist, though, and anything that could potentially be used to generate advantage will be abused to death.
  • by Finin ( 97295 ) <finin@@@cs...umbc...edu> on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @11:23AM (#18429301) Homepage
    Stephen's argument is based on the belief that "The Semantic Web will never work because it depends on businesses working together, on them cooperating." He says:

    "But the big problem is they believed everyone would work together:
    • would agree on web standards (hah!)
    • would adopt a common vocabulary (you don't say)
    • would reliably expose their APIs so anyone could use them (as if)"
    While the argument he makes is grounded in his distrust of corporations, which I share to some degree, his second point above is off the mark, at least for RDF.

    One of the features of the W3C's model [w3.org] (based on RDF) is that it doesn't push the idea that everyone should adopt the same vocabulary (or ontology) for a topic or domain. Instead it offers a way to publish vocabularies with some semantics, including how terms in one vocabulary relate to terms in another. In addition, the framework makes it trivial to publish data in which you mix vocabularies, making statements about a person, for example, using terms drawn from FOAF [xmlns.com], Dublin Core [dublincore.org] and others.

    The RDF approach was designed with interoperability and extensibility in mind, unlike many other approaches. RDF is showing increasing adoption, showing up in products by Oracle [oracle.com], Adobe [adobe.com] and Microsoft [dannyayers.com], for example.

    If this approach doesn't continue to flourish and help realize the envisioned "web of data", and it might not after all, it will have left some key concepts, tested and explored, on the table for the next push. IMHO, the 'semantic web' vision -- a web of data for machines and their users -- is inevitable.

  • by KjetilK ( 186133 ) <kjetil AT kjernsmo DOT net> on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @11:26AM (#18429349) Homepage Journal
    Well, if his first point was correct, the web wouldn't exist at all. Allthough there are lengthy fights in for example the HTML area, and it took a while to get RDF on a firm footing, semweb standardisation is actually moving pretty quickly now that we have the foundations.

    His second point is just a common misconceptions and FAQs [w3.org]. It doesn't require that people does that.

    I have just accepted a position with a consultancy that does a fair amount of work for those cut-throat businesses. And they are interested, very interested, in fact. Which is also why Oracle, IBM, HP, even Microsoft is interested.

    Typical use case for them is: So, you bought your competitor, and each of the companies sit on big valuable databases that are incompatible. You have huge data integration problem that needs solving fast. So, throw in an RDF model, which is actually a pretty simple model. Use the SPARQL query language. Now all employees have access to the data they need. Problem solved. Lots of money saved. Good.

    But this is not part of the open web, you say? Indeed, you're right. So, Semantic Web technologies have allready succeeded, but not on the open web. And since I'm such an idealist, I want it on the open web. So, the blog still has a valid point.

    We need to make compelling reasons why they should put (some) data on the open web. It isn't easy, but then, let TimBL tell you it wasn't easy to get them on the web in the first place. It is not very different, actually. The main approach to this is capitalise on network effects. There is a lot of public information, and we need to start with that.

    So, partly, that's what I'll do. We have emergent use cases, and that's the evil part of cut-throat business. You don't talk about those before they happen. So, sorry about that. I think it will be very compelling, but it'll take a few years. If you're the risk-averse kinda developer who first and foremost has a family to feed, then I understand that you don't want to risk anything, and you can probably jump on the bandwagon a couple of years from now, having lost relatively little.

    But if you, like me, like to live on the edge, and doesn't mind taking risks doing things that of course might fail, then I think semweb is one of most interesting things right now.

  • by CodeBuster ( 516420 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @01:41PM (#18431413)
    Essentially, the Semantic Web asks users to explicitly state relations between concepts and ideas to make up for our current lack of an AI capable of discerning such things for itself from natural human language.

    The problem here is trust. All of the previous features of the web, whether it is javascript or metadata or something else, have invariably been abused by those seeking to game the system for profit. The semantic web is asking the marketplace to state relations in an unbiased fashion when there are powerful economic incentives to do otherwise (i.e. everything on the semantic web will end up being related to pron whether it actually is or not). Indeed there are entire businesses devoted to "optimizing" search engine results, targeting ads, spamming people to death, and other abuses. The problem was that the people that designed and built the initial web protocols and technologies did not account for the use of their network by the general public and thus did not take steps to technologically limit abuses (their network of distinguished academic colleagues was always collegial after all so there would be no widespread abuses). The semantic web will fail precisely because human nature is deceptive, not because the technology is somehow lacking.

    In fact, this whole discussion is reminiscent of the conversation that Neo has with the Architect in The Matrix Reloaded. The Architect, as you may recall, explains why a system (the Matrix), which was originally designed to be a harmony of mathematical precision, ultimately failed to function, in that form, because the imperfections and flaws inherent in humanity continuously undermined its ability to function as it was intended. The same general principle is at work with the Semantic Web, the perfect system could work in a perfect world, but not in our world because humans are not perfect.
  • by DragonWriter ( 970822 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2007 @02:02PM (#18431793)

    The problem here is trust.


    I agree on this much.

    The semantic web is asking the marketplace to state relations in an unbiased fashion


    I don't think it really is. Its certainly asking people to make claims about resources, but those claims themselves are resources that may be the subject of metadata making claims about those claims. How people (or automated systems) treat particular claims on the Semantic Web can certainly depend on claims made about those claims by particular other sources of metadata. Trust is an issue, sure, but the Semantic Web itself also provides the framework on which to build a distributed system for resolving issues of trust.
  • I think the big issue right now is that the computer industry doesn't even know what they mean by "Web 2.0" and the marketing departments hide their ignorance admirably by repeating buzzwords until people think they understand concepts they don't. Ok, Tim O'Reilly is careful to define such terms when he uses them (good for him!) but few others seem to do the same.

    At least with things like TCP/IP, relational database theory, information theory, and the like, the concepts are well defined, not some mishmash of marketing buzzwordspeak and sloppy definition. Of course, TCP/IP as it is now often taught (via OSI) is just as muddled even though the model is (and ought to be) clear as daylight. If people are going to cover OSI and TCP/IP they ought to cover the entire protocol ideas, design criteria, etc. That way people will *understand* why OSI protocols (like H.323) are so awkward when run on TCP/IP. [/rant]

    The big thing is, instead of having a vague marketing buzzword about something, it is helpful if we devide things into usable and practical concepts. Social networking, web services, service oriented architectures, semantic markup, etc. rather than lumping it all together into a vague term that doesn't really mean anything.

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