WTO Again Sides With Antigua Over Online Gambling 429
TechDirt writes "For some time we've been following the ongoing conflict between the US and the island nation of Antigua surrounding internet gambling. Even before the passage of the most recent anti-gambling law, Antigua had gone to the WTO to complain that the US government's actions against online gambling were de facto protectionist measures, and thus violated international trade law. The WTO ended up siding with Antigua, although, quite predictably, the US did nothing to resolve the issue -- in fact, things have only gotten worse. Now the WTO is speaking out again, slamming the US government for its failure to abide by the decision against it. Once again, it seems likely that the US will ignore the decision, although that would give Antigua the right to retaliate. One possibility that's been thrown out there is that Antigua may turn itself into a haven for free music and software and set up some site like allofmp3.com. Of course, the US put pressure on Russia to crack down on that site, as part of the country's admittance into the WTO, but since Antigua is already part of the organization, the US would have no such leverage. Now, the WTO has spoken out again."
Hmm.... (Score:2, Interesting)
This also touches on broader "moral issues". If a country doesn't want something to come in because it objects on moral grounds, who is another country to sue about it? It's like Columbia complaining to the WTO that we ban cocaine.
(Some may argue that regular gambling is legal in parts of the US, but I think online gambling falls into a different realm. Because of the ease of access, it could lead to an major increase in gambling.)
My butt (Score:4, Interesting)
The crux of the issue here, is that unlike in the EU where local moral and religious laws get some protection from EU decisions, the WTO frowns on morality-based protectionism. As well they should. What business is it of our government to dictate what someone can do with their money? Gambling restrictions in this country are sold as religion-based. A good portion of Christians think that gambling is immoral. The other portion thinks that gambling is a waste of money and disproportionatly affects the poor. I suspect the real reason is because the state likes having a monopoly on gaming (state lotteries) and doesn't want the free market driving their payout percentages.
Then again, I'm not your "average" Slashdotter. Even though I AM an economist, the internet is full of people who read Atlas Shrugged and think they have a degree from Wharton or something. So I may be wrong about your "average Slashdot user."
Somebody... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Hmm.... (Score:5, Interesting)
But you do let people gamble in American casinos in Vegas, Atlantic City (at times!) and certain native American reservations? Why not online? Protectionism, see?
It's like Columbia complaining to the WTO that we ban cocaine.
No it's not. Cocaine is illegal in both the US and Colombia. Gambling is legal in parts of the US and in Antigua. The US created a law to make "online" gambling illegal, but no one goes to jail for going to Vegas even if gambling is illegal in their state. Therefore Antigua complains. Especially since most of their business came from the US. That's what trade organizations are all about, really.
but I think online gambling falls into a different realm. Because of the ease of access, it could lead to an major increase in gambling.
Thank God that we have you as our self-appointed Censor!
Yes some people have gambling problems, and can ruin their lives (and their family) through gambling. However not everyone has this problem. Most people can keep to the limits they establish themselves.
You suggest a prohibition type scenario. If you look around you perhaps you might understand what happens when government prohibits something that the people want. The people do it ANYWAY. Example - alchol in the 20's. Drugs today. Prohibition enables organized crime to get rich from the public vice. It does not stop the vice.
Same as our Softwood lumber (Score:5, Interesting)
These fines have added up to 2 billion dollars. We had gone repeatedly to the WTO about the issue, and they said that we were in the right, and that the US must gives our money back. This has been going over 10 years.
The US knows that it is in the wrong. However they simply won't pay the fine.
So forget about anyone else getting any rulings through the WTO.
Re:What a hypocrite the US is! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:5, Interesting)
on the USA either, UN, WTO, all other "organizations" are powerless and pointless.
tom
It's like the Bush fans who justify his behavior by saying "oh, but Clinton did this stuff too!" Well, when you spend years whining and bitching about how bad the other guy was, you kinda lose the right to use "they did it first" as a defense.
Re:Shut up and take your medicine (Score:3, Interesting)
on the USA either, UN, WTO, all other "organizations" are powerless and pointless.
tom"
Oh, okay, so the USA isn't any worse than NK, Iraq, or Iran? That's a stunning endorsement.
We've been in this camp for a long time. When the UN wanted to teach girls about family planning, it was the US and Iran that went to bat against the measure.
Re:Hmm.... (Score:1, Interesting)
First off, I definitely don't love America, or Americans. I don't think you live in a free country, and I would shudder should something similar happen to us. I live in Canada, where freedom means just that, freedom. I can vote for multiple political parties. Hell I even had a separatist movement in the government. There's more, but that's where I'll start.
And to dispell a few myths, neither me nor my friends are rabidly left wing (or hell left wing at all). Hell, I voted Tory (call that Republican in your world) in the last election. The election prior I voted Green. Our problem with America and yes, Americans is the imperialism, the unbelievable arrogance, and the fact that the rest of the world just doesn't matter. And yes, this is true in other parts of the world.
I always make it a point to let people know that I'm Canadian. Hell, when my AMERICAN friends travel they do the same. I wonder why that might be?
Re:Tenth Amendment (Score:2, Interesting)
There would be no issue here if the federal gov't had not gotten involved, however it chose the fight, not the other way around. By allowing interstate internet wagering on Fantasy and Horse Racing, it has allowed internet wagering with or without the State's consent. This means that foreign companies (under the WTO agreements) are allowed to compete. If they are not allowed to compete, then it's protectionism. And if you review the debate on just Horse Racing in the US - that's exactly what it is. In fact the Dept. of Justice considers interent horse racing to be illegal, even though a carve-out exists specifically for it in the UIGEA.
Re:Hmm.... (Score:1, Interesting)
There was plenty of sympathy for 9/11, not because people liked America, but because civilians anywhere in the world simply don't deserve to be murdered like that.
I'm British, so I'm really angry at Iran right now and whilst I hate the Iranian goverment for their kidnapping and would love us to blow them to hell and back I still wouldn't wish that innocent civilians are harmed and hence I accept that bombing them would be an incorrect course of action.
Tell me, which people loved the US so much prior to 9/11?
Is it the Russians, Chinese and other communist states that have been the targets of US hate for so many years since World War II?
Is it nations like Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya for the US attacks on their nations?
Is it the Brits and the French, who's goverments may support the US, but who's population still remembers how badly the US fucked us in Suez?
How about African nations like Somalia? They were so US friendly in the 90s after all.
What about some of the central/south American nations like Venezuela, or hell what about Cuba?
What about North Korea?
How about Canada with the US' constant ignorance of WTO orders relating to lumber, or the US will to stealing Canada's fresh water as well as their constant slating of the Canadians?
Most nations that did and do actually like the US are nations who have had puppet goverments installed after US intervention. A good historic example is - Japan dating back to World War II.
I realise at a Brit, that our country is responsible for some very atrocious wrongdoings, I certainly don't delude myself that the world loves Britain - it doesn't. However, it's the fact that Brits can be diplomatic and accept that when we're wrong, we are indeed wrong that stops us being quite such a target of hate for the world - a better understanding of the rest of the world rather than an ignorant "Everyone loves us!" attitude is exactly what the US needs now, and has needed for a very, very long time.
Re:My butt (Score:3, Interesting)
Most of the EU does not want GM food, although for a variety of reasons: for some people its health and safety, for some its morality, and for others its economics or the environment. EU politicians risk losing their seat if they vote for it, yet the US is forcing the WTO, at the US's behest, to make us take food we dont want to eat, by not allowing us to know which food it is so we can choose not to buy it.
Re:Hmm.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Nice random conclusion. Why not just say it's because the space aliens that run our country don't allow it? Gambling is and ALWAYS has be ILLEGAL in about 40 of the 50 states. There are 3 states that don't allow any form of gambling, not lottery, no horses, no dogs. Because the US is a REPUBLIC, with a federal government which is traditionally run by the states, the US has ALWAYS left decisions on MORAL issues to be handled at the state level. (And whether you believe it's a moral issue or not, it IS considered a moral issue in the US).
There is no national law outlawing Prostitution, but it's still illegal everywhere in the US but two counties in Nevada. Just as in nearly 1/3 of the US you cannot purchase or own alcohol stronger than 3.2% beer. The same is true of gambling, there are very LIMITED jurisdictions where it's available. 20 years ago, that was Nevada, Atlantic City, Montana and Alaska (40 years before that it was Nevada, Montana and Alaska). Now, AFAIK Alaska has banned it,, and its now legal on the Indian reservations (only it states that have an approved form of gambling) because the courts ruled the tribal nations can't be ruled by state law, only federal (current federal law declares them a nation inside a nation), and a number of states along the Mississippi have allowed gambling on the waterfront (but still requires that it take place on a ship) simply because they couldn't stop the gambling on the riverboats (they tried extensively to block it) because the Mississippi river itself was declared outside state boundaries by the courts (there were a number of ship accidents that caused significant loss of life pushing them to make it semi-legal in the name of public safety).
Do you know what is true? Gambling by wire (telephone, telegraph, etc.) was declared illegal at the federal level ~60 years ago when there was a rise in illegal gambling by telephone controlled by the mafia. This was to ALLOW the states to have on premises gambling and to regulate it as they see fit without the worry of trying to arrest someone in another state when all you had was a phone number. A few years ago the federal government extended that law to cover the internet. You know who was the biggest proponent of that law (US casinos and native tribes), but do you know why? Because in the early 90's, probably about '93, these casinos acting in their own interest tried to get pre-approval of congress for gambling over the internet (illegal federal gaming-by-wire prison terms are long). Do you know why they tried to do this, rather than just taking the opinion that existing law didn't cover it? Because they KNEW the existing gaming by wire laws covered the internet and that just adding the clause later was just a clarification of the existing law. Lets just say the final debate made it clear that this was NEVER going to change unless we tossed every evangelical in the country into the ocean. Believe me, if gambling by wire was legal in the US the US casino community would COMPLETELY dominate the industry, the only other major players would be some of the historic casinos around the world. Antigua wouldn't even be a blip on the map.
The problem with the WTO ruling is that they are saying all gambling is the same, but it's not, not in the least. Traditional in Casino gambling follows US laws, it is regulated at the local level, it's ruled by federal laws that prohibit thieves, conv