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United States Technology

U.S. Soldiers Hate New High-Tech Gear 619

mattnyc99 writes "Land Warrior, the Army's wireless equipment package featuring helmet cams, GPS, laser range-finders and a host of other state-of-the-art electronics, is finally ready for deployment on a global battlefield network in Iraq after 15 years of R&D at the Pentagon. But in a report for Popular Mechanics, Noah Shachtman not only tries on the new digital armor—he talks to troops who don't like it at all. As if that wasn't disheartening enough for the future of tech at war, the real Land Warrior system doesn't even match up to its copycat gear in Ghost Recon 2."
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U.S. Soldiers Hate New High-Tech Gear

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  • Shock! Horror! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by FuckTheModerators ( 883349 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @04:59PM (#18788033) Journal
    the real Land Warrior system doesn't even match up to its copycat gear in Ghost Recon 2

    Well, duh. Otherwise I'd start bitching that my crossbow isn't as accurate at 500 yards as its Half-Life copycat.
  • Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:00PM (#18788043) Journal
    Bitching about newly issued equipment is army tradition.

    And what the hell does Ghost Recon 2 have to do with anything?

    Real life isnt the same as a video game? Then why did I feel so huge after I ate those mushrooms?

  • by AbsoluteXyro ( 1048620 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:00PM (#18788049)
    Pissing and moaning. This isn't even remotely surprising. I don't believe Land Warrior is the holy grail of high tech combat in the digital age, but I believe it will prove itself a great asset when troops know how to use it, and use it well.
  • by EmbeddedJanitor ( 597831 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:01PM (#18788067)
    All this money/effort going into high tech ignores the most basic points: soldiers would rather have a reliable rifle and body armor than all the geek toys in the world.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of _the_AK-47_and_M16.

  • by Haiku 4 U ( 580059 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:03PM (#18788089)
    So, what happens when
    the smart other side captures
    one of our soldiers?
  • by Luteus ( 899852 ) <brett@luteus.org> on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:06PM (#18788139) Homepage
    As my old man (US Army retired) would say about any new military infantry technology more complex than a rock, "Give it to the average grunt and he'll find some way to break it."
  • by arcite ( 661011 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:10PM (#18788207)
    Economies of scale? In Iraq the insurgents can use a weapon that cost maybe $100 to destroy equipment worth a few million.

    Reminds me of Batman Begins quote about the high tech body armor... you know the one.

  • Lag kills. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TheLazySci-FiAuthor ( 1089561 ) <thelazyscifiauthor@gmail.com> on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:11PM (#18788215) Homepage Journal
    I sit here racking my brain for why the soldiers are wrong. I think to myself, "hmm, they just aren't used to it. they need to get us3ed to the new equipment."

    But then I read that the tracking capabilities can lag up to a minute behind: I certainly couldn't play a first person shooter with a 60,000ms ping - how could this be any less of a problem in real life?

    Despite my vehement tecnophillia, I too wonder if this gear is really a benefit.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:11PM (#18788223)
    I personally prefer to actually hit the people I shoot at. So I'm one of those m16 fans. Also, I generally refrain from trying to club people with my weapon, bayonet keeps cutting my hands...

    Anyone know what those are for?
  • Techno-bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)

    by igotmybfg ( 525391 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:12PM (#18788241) Homepage
    This article reminds me of two things:

    "It is a hard heart that kills!" - Full Metal Jacket

    Hiro turns off all the techno-bullshit. The statistics about his impending death distract him... - Snow Crash

    What happens to this whole thing when the batteries die? Or when they have to jump in the water and it shorts out? Or when it just, you know, breaks? Soldiering is soldiering, no matter what technologies you equip your soldiers with. It's about being adaptable, flexible, and enduring. This techno crap isn't really any of those things.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:16PM (#18788301)
    Tools are tools and what geek doesn't like playing with hardware?

    What scares me is irrational people who ascribe human traits to inanimate objects. There's no such thing as an "assault rifle", just assault humans. A rifle without a human can do nothing but collect dust. A human without a rifle can find other tools to accomplish their goals, anything from a primitive club to a hijacked airliner.
  • Training Gadgets (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Oktober Sunset ( 838224 ) <sdpage103NO@SPAMyahoo.co.uk> on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:27PM (#18788447)
    The US army should spend less money on gadgets and more money on training their troops for longer rather than sending barely trained recruits straight into battle zones.
  • by Radon360 ( 951529 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:31PM (#18788497)

    You raise a good point. The enemy could then don the helmet and immediately find out troop positions and other intel. So what are the possible countermeasures to prevent this from happening?

    1. Integrated biometrics so the system only works with the soldier to which the system was issued? Sounds good, but probably buggy and adds weight/expense. What would prevent the captor from detaining a soldier and coercing them to tell them information? I suppose they could be trained to give spurious responses.
    2. Soldier login and quick disable feature? Might work if the soldier is able to deactivate the system (i.e. still alive, ambulatory). Requires the soldier to remember to deactivate in the heat of the moment.
    3. Remote disable? This would rely upon an effective means of determining that an authorized user is in possession of the equipment.

    Warface intel is great, but the more widely you make it available, the harder it becomes to contain, pretty much like any other piece of information in society.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:34PM (#18788549)
    "An M4 (I can never figure out the sequence of these numbers) is a good deal tougher long-term than the antique M16."

    1 - The numbers are always in order, but every type of object has it's own series. The M16 is the sixteenth rifle adopted by the Army and the M4 is the fourth in a different series. It's a carbine or SMG or something like that.

    2 - The M4 is just a shorter version of the M16. The only differences are the buttstock assembly and the barrel/handguard assembly and with the proper tools it takes about 15 minutes to convert an M16 into an M4 or vice versa. If you don't care about swapping the buttstock you can do the conversion by simply swappinng the upper receiver which takes less than a minute and requries no tools. There has been evolution in some design elements but these are also included in the M16s, either when they are purchased new or when they go to an armory for refitting. A current M4/M16 is tougher than a Viet Nam era M16, but there are many current M16s and M4s in use that were originalyl purchased 40 years ago and have simply been upgraded over the years.

    3 - Even the original M16 doesn't lack much in durability or reliability. It takes a little more maintenance and is can be more finicky about the quality of the ammunition but when taken care of it is very reliable and those tighter tolerances make for a much more accurate weapon. If I were selecting a weapon to issue to poorly trained conscripts then I'd choose the AK, but for professional soldiers who know how to take care of their equipment the M16/M4 family is the better option.
  • generals tell all (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:37PM (#18788593)
    If a soldier isn't complaing then said soldier must be dead.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:40PM (#18788633)
    That's assault rifles. Assault Weapons are semi-automatics that look like assault rifles. The thinkofthechildren crowd just calls them assault weapons to make them sound scary.

    Assault Rifles are the fully or selective automatic mofo's you do not want to be on the wrong end of.

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapons [wikipedia.org]
  • Re:Yeah... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:51PM (#18788767)
    Who modded that funny? It's NOT funny. It's sad, that all the great volunteer work that went into Linux helps the military. I only hope that what these military in the article say is true: that it will actually hinder them more than help them.

    Why, so more soldiers can get killed? And this crap about "great volunteer work" helping the military. Hell, you're using technology that the military helped to create to post your silly rant. Why be a hypocrite, stop using the internet if you think it's a moral issue to mix the civilian and military worlds. What, the internet has gone beyond it's simple DOD beginnings, well the same can be said about Linux as well. The maker of any tool has to be aware that their tool can be used for negative things. Given that, if they still decide to create the tool then they are in no moral position to complain about it.
  • Re:Yeah... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Frostalicious ( 657235 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:53PM (#18788793) Journal
    I only hope that what these military in the article say is true: that it will actually hinder them more than help them.

    What the hell? Do you want to disband your military or something? Where does this come from?
  • by Hijacked Public ( 999535 ) * on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:55PM (#18788819)
    Thats AR-15.

    And while ammunition prices have skyrocketed recently, mostly because the US military has purchased the entire output of most of the major manufacturers 5.56, it isn't hard to come by. Ammoman [ammoman.com] has been able to keep a steady supply of Wolf, usually has various Lake City products, SS109, etc etc.

    Also, most US brick and mortar shops (Wal-Marts even) will have larger stocks of 5.56x45 than 7.62x54R.
  • by hellfire ( 86129 ) <deviladvNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @05:59PM (#18788859) Homepage
    ...is that expensive military gadgets are big business. Spending money on training a soldier, providing good veterans benefits are all right out because this doesn't make anyone any money, but attaching a playstation 3 to a soldier's helmet is a huge contract that someone could make a huge profit off of (and not just in this administration; this has been true since the start of the cold war).

    We should be spending money on training and intelligence gathering. The military is suffering from the same tech envy as the rest of the population is suffering, and yet they have no one to be envious of. The enemy can blow up your $100,000 humvee with $5 worth of materials available in a third world country corner store. They don't care how big your guns or computers are. Spend some goddamn money on real intelligence gathering and building knowledge and experience of your troops.
  • by theshowmecanuck ( 703852 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:00PM (#18788887) Journal
    Isn't it sad that people can somehow rationalize that a weapon that was built specifically for killing humans should not be classified as an assault rifle. Even if it was designed to be used while assaulting an enemy. Yeah that's right, you don't need a 600 cyclic rounds per minute rifle to kill a deer. Not unless you are shitty shot or have mental problems where you get your jollies making hamburger while it is still on the hoof.
  • Unsurprising (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DerekLyons ( 302214 ) <fairwater@gmaLISPil.com minus language> on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:01PM (#18788901) Homepage
    Having actually served in the military (unlike many Slashdotters), bitching about your gear is an old and honorable prequisite of the soldier, sailor, and airman. (That is bitching among yourselves or your bretheren. Outsiders and those senior to you get, unless the seniors ask specifically, the standard "works fine, lasts a long time, drains to the aft missle compartment bilge" routine.)
     
    From TFA
     

    "It's just a bunch of stuff we don't use, taking the place of useful stuff like guns,"

     
    I heard this pretty much every time new gear came to the boat. It was never as useful as the old stuff, and breaks more often too. (Sometimes, _very_ rarely, it's actually true.) Sounds like a Seargeant that needs to be busted and someone who will do the job put in his place. The job of a Sgt. is to teach people how to use and integrate the gear into their tactics. If his people don't or won't use the gear - it's his job to find out why, and report the same up the chain.
  • by protolith ( 619345 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:05PM (#18788949)
    Noise canceling headphones rock!

    I have a set, they amplify ambient sounds (crunch of gravel under foot, whispers, vehicle engines in the distance)and clip the amplitude peaks of loud or sudden sounds.

    You can hear whispered sighting instructions yet protect your hearing when you squeeze the trigger (muffled boom) and right back to whispered conversation.
  • Re:you don't say? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by PygmySurfer ( 442860 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:07PM (#18788969)
    So, they should use Macs? :)
  • by NeutronCowboy ( 896098 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:08PM (#18788989)
    [blockquote]We could have won already if the rules of restraint weren't there.[/blockquote]

    What you, and everyone who thinks along these lines, don't understand is that all military conflicts are by definition political. Not only that, but you also fail to define "won". In military terms, we already won. We just failed to keep the peace in Iraq.
  • by Moofie ( 22272 ) <lee AT ringofsaturn DOT com> on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:13PM (#18789039) Homepage
    From a design perspective, killing a person is not very different from killing a deer.

    So, apart from the fact that some guns look scarier than others, their dangerousness has much more to do with the shooter (and the cartridge) than with the furniture on the weapon.
  • by c6gunner ( 950153 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:16PM (#18789073) Homepage
    Nonsense. We DO have a reliable rifle and body armour - better than any army in history. Do you have ANY idea how much more effective a basic rifleman is when you give him a bore-aiming ability? Ask anyone pinned down in a firefight, and they'll gladly give you their right nut for the ability to aim around corners. And don't even get me started on the advantages of accurate IFF devices, encrypted communications, and easy navigation. We've been looking forward to this technology for a LONG time.
  • by c6gunner ( 950153 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:18PM (#18789105) Homepage
    You're an asshole, but I couldn't help laughing :)
  • by XenoRyet ( 824514 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:19PM (#18789111)
    I think the point was that assault requires intent. The intent lies within the person, not the rifle.

    A person with no intent to assault anyone isn't going to do any harm to humans simply because they possess a weapon that can fire 600 rounds per minute. True, they don't technically need it either, but simply having it does no harm.

  • by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:28PM (#18789243)

    So, what happens when the smart other side captures one of our soldiers?
    How does that not apply to every other weapon/intel in existence?
  • Re:Techno-bullshit (Score:3, Insightful)

    by vertinox ( 846076 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:28PM (#18789245)
    What happens to this whole thing when the batteries die? Or when they have to jump in the water and it shorts out? Or when it just, you know, breaks? Soldiering is soldiering, no matter what technologies you equip your soldiers with. It's about being adaptable, flexible, and enduring.

    I think you might miss the point. Technology is made to expand fire power or force extension.

    A soldier who relies on good soldiering by poor technology will still be defeated by a bad soldier with exponentially better technology.

    Even if the bad soldier's technology of breaks and the low tech soldier kills him, there will be another bad soldier with good technology to replace him. (ie... Soldier with AK47 kills soldier whose GPS has failed, but other solider aware of battle calls in air strike from a warship 150 miles away killing the AK47 soldier)

    Rate of failure is consider part of the casualties which is actually the deciding factor in warfare more so than good soldiering and good technology.

    Example: German soldiers in WWII did not loose because they were not as good soldiers or had bad gear (which in reality they were often better soldiers and had better technology than their counter parts) but rather they were simply unable to replace their losses both in manpower and their gear.

    Hence, which is why the Pentagon is trying to come up with autonomous solutions as quickly as possible. I suspect by 2020 we will have Bolos running around on the battlefield and talking about "what the grunts" want will be a moot point because if you simply can replace your casualties with an assembly line... Well you can simply out build the enemy regardless of how many casualties they inflict.

    Imagine if you will an Iraq war in which the insurgents could not kill a single American soldier because they were simply all in bunkers somewhere controlling their military units. A bloodless war (at least for us) in which the politicians wouldn't have to worry about people voting out of office for too many casualties.
  • by Cervantes ( 612861 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:30PM (#18789273) Journal
    The problem with this system is that it just plain misses the point.

    Let's start off with the interface. Why is it hanging in front of half your face? If I'm being shot at, my first concern is going to be shooting back accurately, and if that damn thing gets in my way it's going off and not coming back till after everything is done.
    The preferred option should have been a full width half-visor, similar to a hockey visor. See-through (probably slightly tinted), non shiny, not-in-the-way, but if you want data displayed on it, you can use it as a projection surface. Build the projection hardware into the helmet. You don't need much, because really, you don't need full-colour 30FPS.
    Now, I do believe everyone should have an earpiece and short-range transmitting microphone built into the helmet as well. That just makes sense.
    Video... yes, let's wirelessly link video from your gun into a projection on your helmet. But let's not go adding stuff just for fun. Change up the scope, take it from optical to digital, and in filters for night-scope, infra, etc, display it on a nice small TFT at the back of the scope, and wirelessly send it to the helmet. Now your gun is still mostly the same, but you have this extra functionality without more shit hanging from your kit.
    Wires... why the hell does this thing have wires everywhere? They're a hazard waiting for an excuse to fuck you up. The only possible visible wire should be power from the body-mounted battery pack to the helmet. Everything else should be built in surface connections on your armour. A full-function controller on your forearm, powered by a surface pad connection on your jacket, is really the only other thing that should be out.
    And while we're at it... is the M16 really the gun of choice for urban combat? The feedback I've had from people who've been over there has been that it's simply too big, too long, for the majority of what they do. It's great to be able to sniper some sucker from 500ft, but when all you want to do is crawl under the jeep, shoot the guy on the corner, then sneak around the corner and shoot the other guys, it's just too long. Let's switch up to a shorter, stockier gun (but with the same ammo, otherwise it's a nightmare). That guy in Israel demo'd the Amazing Folding Gun last year, that's a perfect bet. No need to expose yourself, you can do new and nifty things with it, and having the screen on the back end of the gun means that can be your one main place for information. Power it with contact pads on your gloves, so no wires between you and the gun.
    And speaking of information... this is the one part that worries me. You're taking these soldiers, who have to keep their location 100% secret or they die, and sticking a transmitter on them. It doesn't matter if it's encrypted, or if it goes up to a satellite or connects to AOL and uses a Buddy List to update everyone on where you are... it's still putting out power, and it's not gonna take long before someone goes "Hey, I don't need to know what is being sent out, I just have to get a scanner to see if there's any signals being radiated, and from where". Broadcasting your location probably isn't the best idea, it's just a matter of time until it gets you killed.
    So what extra EQ do we have here? A visor, small LED projection system, and a mike... maybe an extra kilo? Probably not even. Weight penalties from changes to the gunsight are offset by the new model. Extra weight for the folding stock and screen. 2 kilos, max, but worth it for the functionality. Running all this shouldn't take much, hell, the new Palms have enough processing power. And with such little equipment, batteries suddenly became a whole lot lighter. Now you have a much more effective soldier, in audio communication on demand, and he isn't burdened by 17 pounds of crap that looked cool in 1999.

    The focus of this project should have been "Improving the soldier", not "Improving the middle-level managers ability to micromanage". Give the soldier more info, easy communications, better visuals (night,
  • by Chris Burke ( 6130 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:38PM (#18789357) Homepage
    What you, and everyone who thinks along these lines, don't understand is that all military conflicts are by definition political. Not only that, but you also fail to define "won". In military terms, we already won. We just failed to keep the peace in Iraq.

    Yes, exactly. Especially in a conflict like this the goals are political and you cannot separate the military methods used from those goals.

    I have no doubt that the rules of engagement hamstring soldiers in life-and-death situations, and result in insurgents escaping. The thing is, in any situation where the soldier actually has a potential target, they're already way ahead of the game. When the IED goes off under the HUMMWV, when the suicide bomber in the buick blows up the car at the checkpoint, who exactly is the soldier supposed to shoot at? The guy looking around the corner? He could be the trigger man, or he could be an innocent bystander, or he could be a lookout working for the insurgents. You can't figure that out after the fact.

    The real problem in Iraq is a failure of intelligence. We have no insight into the workings of the insurgents, we have no ability to infiltrate them without the explicit help of the local population, and they simply are not helping us. The local population, even the ones who are glad we invaded and took out Saddam, even the ones who look forward to a stable democratic government, are not truly on our side. They don't see us as helping, and so they aren't helping us. Does anyone think that showing less restraint, being less selective about who we shoot at, is going to convince them to aid us?

    You see the same thinking -- that having less restraint would have turned a loss into a Victory -- about Vietnam. But really the fundamental problem was the same -- when it came down to it, the people did not support us, they undermined us. We won every battle, but lost the war, simply because it wasn't the battles that were important. We could have "won" if we wiped out every village the VC had ever been seen near, just like we could "win" in Iraq if every time an IED blew up in a neighborhood and nobody told us who set it off we leveled the entire town. We'd absolutely never have the people's support, but we could "win" according to a goal post that has nothing to do with the reason our troops were there in the first place.

    I think the key learning here is that there are types of conflicts where our military and our political reality make victory nigh impossible. We are not willing to wipe out whole populations in the name of "freeing" them, ergo we will fail in the face of any long-term insurgency that has a substantial degree of support among the populace. People who want to "win" by reducing restraint want to "win" by changing the name of the game from "free" to "wipe out". You could do that just to claim a victory, but that's like changing a losing game of Hearts into 52 Card Pickup -- you "win" by losing the real game even worse.
  • by darkwhite ( 139802 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:39PM (#18789371)
    How about: the system turns off if any component is disconnected or removed from the body, and requires a code to log in when turned on? Sounds easy enough to me...
  • Re:Unsurprising (Score:2, Insightful)

    by El_Oscuro ( 1022477 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:40PM (#18789377) Homepage
    How true, even for 74 Foxtrot (Computer Programmer/Analyst). In basic, my contraband Walkman held up quite well (Sony actually made good products then). My POS M-16 didn't. The frickin lower receiver broke, and since it was all one piece, they had to get me an entirely new weapon. At least the new one didn't jam all the time. In AIT (computer school), I bitched all the time about having to program in COBOL and JCL. At my first duty assignment, I bitched about having to use an Apple II instead of a C-64, which could render the radar images a lot better, and so on throughout my time of service. Now, as a civilian, I bitch about having to use Windows. Some things never change.
  • Re:Techno-bullshit (Score:3, Insightful)

    by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:43PM (#18789431)

    Soldiering is soldiering, no matter what technologies you equip your soldiers with.
    No. If that were true, there would be no radios or rifles, much less airplanes, tanks, bombs... Either you really think gung-ho soldiers with nothing but pointy sticks can win, or what you really meant was "good tech is good, useless tech is useless," which I certainly agree with. Native Americans (at least some of them) were plenty adaptible, flexible, enduring, hard-hearted, whatever. There's a limit to the odds you can overcome with true grit alone.
  • Re:Yeah... (Score:0, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:51PM (#18789509)
    And this crap about "great volunteer work" helping the military. Hell, you're using technology that the military helped to create to post your silly rant.

    So? I would be happy to help the military create civilian technologies. Civilian technologies aren't going to kill anyone (except through misuse or accident). Even adapting military technology for civilian uses doesn't bother me. There's a big difference between adapting an originally negative technology to further humane society and subverting the ideals of freedom to kill. RMS obviously values the right to read and learn from source code. I don't think he'd disagree with everybody's intrinsic right to life.
  • by iamwahoo2 ( 594922 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @06:58PM (#18789591)
    I hear that the AK47 is the absolute best for firing bullets straight up in the air during celebrations and protests.
  • Re:Yeah... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Chris Burke ( 6130 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @07:10PM (#18789731) Homepage
    I don't see a moral problem with a tool I created being used for war. Everything can be subverted for use in war; what would you do, condemn farmers for making grains that is turned into bread which is used to feed the soldiers which are an integral part of the horrible war machine? War happens, war must be fought effectively, and frankly given that I'm not going to sweat a soldier using Linux in a weapon system any more than a farmer should sweat a soldier having a sandwich for lunch.

    I do have a problem, though, with war profiteering. War is horrible, and profiting directly from the terrible suffering caused does create a moral conflict in my mind, especially because it creates the incentive to create more war and suffering. If our government wasn't packed to the gills with former defense contractors, would we be involved in fewer conflicts? I believe so.

    From that standpoint, using Linux in a weapon system is a good thing. Some defense contractor didn't get paid billions of dollars to develop an embedded OS for that system. Oh sure they got paid billions for doing all the other parts of the contract, but that's one less way in which people profited directly from war. That's a long way from taking the profit out of the war, but since that wasn't the goal of Linux to begin with, I think all Linux developers can look at this as an unintended positive outcome.
  • by iamwahoo2 ( 594922 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @07:23PM (#18789873)
    The Leaching Defense Contractor?

    I think that you mean "the customer". You see, a lot of defense appropriations is not intended to buy stuff that the warfighter wants. It is to buy stuff that the senator/representative wants, and the reason that he wants it is because the contractor that makes the particular part happens to reside in his voting district.

  • by LinuxDon ( 925232 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @07:24PM (#18789901)
    I know that comparing paintball with real combat might be way off, although it made me realize how much war would suck.
    One thing I really missed during the game was oversight, not knowing the position of my teammates and the current status. Only turning your head to check could get you shot.

    I believe the high-tech equipment would solve that, I can imagine this would save a lot of lives. As for the weight issues, I assume it will be solved in later versions.

    I still can't say anything good about the American system of forcing civilians to fight a political war in a foreign country. Considering the amount of soldiers dying there I am extremely glad to live in a country where there is a volunteer army.
  • by GooberToo ( 74388 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @07:33PM (#18790029)
    Real world use seems to indicate the M16 is better for the grunt on the ground. Look at the videos coming out of Iraq and Afganistan. Listen to the documentaries; there are lots of them. You'll see AK shots landing all around solders, often missing by inches to feet...including from scope based, carifully aimed shots. Meanwhile, the guys with M16's and ACOG are making kills as they return fire with single shots. In closer combat but still not CQC, the kill ratios are still much, much, much higher for the M16. Lastly, in CQC, around tight corners, you'll find grenades have effectively nuked the only serious advantage the AK had. Long story short, the M16 has proven it self to be a better, real world weapon than the AK.

    Put your self in a soldier's boot for a minute. Which is more important to you? Hit the threat when you fire, CQC to 400+ yards? Or to kick your rusty weapon and still be able to fire...but not hit anything? The first is what soldiers demand. The second is strictly for bragging rights. At the end of the day, it's the M16 that brings soldiers home and makes for high enemy body counts.

    Now then, if you are not part of an organized army and you need your weapon to sit in a cache for months at a time without needing to clean it...suddenly the AK is a better option...but still not a better weapon. For real soldiers in real armies in real combat situations, the M16 is hard to beat. Now then, if you want to talk about modern replacements for the M16, the field is pretty wide.

  • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @07:37PM (#18790069)
    The average soldier carries not just his gun and a helmet. There's food, medical equipment, ammo, more ammo, even more ammo, some grenades, spare parts for your technical equipment (like batteries for your radio junkie or another barrel for an MG), the list goes on. You haul around a few pounds and usually you already wonder where to put it, not to mention where the jeep is waiting to haul that junk around.

    Every single piece, though, is there because YOU will need it. It will serve you to stay alive. It will kill your enemy, it will give you a chance to survive 'til help comes around in case you get shot, it enables you to call for help in the first place. Every piece has to be "worth" its weight.

    8 pounds doesn't sound like a lot (hey, my laptop weighs more with ist case), but you don't just carry 8 pounds around. You carry that on top of the other stuff. As everyone who's into hiking will tell you, 8 pounds more or less carried over 30 miles means a sizable difference. Don't believe me? Try it. Take your laptop to work with you and walk that last mile. Then do it without. You WILL notice a difference, trust me!

    So that equipment has to be "worth" those 8 pounds. Its value comes supposedly from additional information. Like what? Position of your buddies? You better know that anyway or what the hell are you doing there without proper training? A map? Nice to have, but useless in a firefight when you have better things to do than looking at a map. And maps weigh less. What's worse, either feature would distract you from what's happening right in front of you.

    Even those amongst you who never had any military training will know that when they've been playing some shooter game with a built in map. Do you have time to ponder the directions on the on screen map when people are shooting at you?

    What COULD be a leap ahead would be some kind of "target marker" that designates an identified hostile, not on some map but right on your visual arc. This in turn is near impossible.

    So I can well see why soldiers aren't too happy with it. It means that they either have to leave 8 pounds of equipment they need behind or haul around 8 pounds more. And for what it seems, it's 8 pounds that don't really add to their efficiency in combat.
  • Possible solution? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Darthmalt ( 775250 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @07:38PM (#18790079)
    Sensor that triggers if helmet is removed that performs a quick lock. Entering the correct password returns to normal function. Entering anything else sends out a notification to command that the equipment has been captured. Command can then send false information to it.
  • by exi1ed0ne ( 647852 ) <exile.pessimists@net> on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @07:44PM (#18790159) Homepage

    I have read a number of AK-47 vs. M16 pissing contests.

    I really wasn't trying to turn it into one. The M16 is a decent weapon, so is the AK47. Which is "better" will depend entirely on the mission. We would actually dismount our M2s sometimes. Now that's a heavy pig to carry, even with three guys. (barrel, ammo, housing/tripod) Although I've toted some heavier firepower.

    It's all about what you are trying to accomplish.

  • Re:Yeah... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by gone.fishing ( 213219 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @07:47PM (#18790197) Journal
    Linux itself is a tool, like many tools it can be put to many different uses, some good, some evil, and some just plain silly. What if the O/S powering this array of hardware was Microsoft's would that somehow make it better? Would it make Microsoft more or less evil?

    War in any time is horrible and it has always called upon the available technology of the day. We can not expect it to be any different in the 21st century! Technology is used to gain an advantage over the opponent and is today also being used to limit collateral damage (which I think is a good thing). Typically one of the fruits of war is the technological advancement that comes from technology being pushed to its limits. If it were not for WWII our world would very possibly be a different place today. The satellites that carry most of the worlds data, TV, and voice transmissions may not exist. Radar would not have been developed at the rate it had. The list goes on and on!

    I know that this almost sounds hawkish. I assure you that I am not all that much of a hawk. I think our war in Iraq is an example of one of the poorest leadership examples ever set by a United States president! I don't feel quite the same about Afghanistan but still find myself wondering what good we are doing over there now. For the most part, I think we spend too much time sticking our military in other peoples business and would love to see most of our troops come home. Still, I am a realist. People will develop new weapons systems and find ways of improving the ones that we have. It comes as no big surprise to me that systems integrators have found their way into the combat zone. Why not? It really isn't very different from a technical standpoint than integrating a bunch of retail stores.
  • by Moofie ( 22272 ) <lee AT ringofsaturn DOT com> on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @07:51PM (#18790261) Homepage
    So, by your argument, we should be regulating deer rifles, not "assault weapons", because deer rifles are more deadly.

    My argument is not that one or another type of rifle is more or less suited for one or another task. My argument is that the furor over assault weapons is a manufactured hysteria. One can change an assault weapon into a perfectly legal one by changing the furniture on the weapon, which has little or nothing to do with its deadliness. and much to do with its scariness.

    Again: The most dangerous component of a firearm is the person wielding it.
  • by archen ( 447353 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @08:06PM (#18790469)
    Well I wouldn't say the M16 exactly qualifies as "awesome" but it is adiquate. Well the starting with the A2, the A1 while fun on full auto was hard to keep from lifting. But if you read the other posts there is a common theme with reliability. As you say CLP does wonders but what happens when you run out? The AK47 has practically no limits to what it can take. The M16 is a weapon that is set up much like the modern U.S. army : an armed force that expects that it's supply chain will always be there, and will always be able to get required goods eventually. If we ever get into a REAL war again and things really go in the crapper, an M16 would become much more of a liability.
  • Future weapon... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Sol31337 ( 771743 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @08:11PM (#18790539)

    A transmitter for a wireless network is on the soldier's body armor, broadcasting encrypted signals for up to a kilometer.
    I'd like to introduce my new antipersonnel rocket, with a targeting range of up to a kilometer.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @08:16PM (#18790581)
    >(you reading this, BFT programmer? I will CHOKE YOU OUT you if I ever see you in RL)

    Yeah, I'm reading this.

    I didn't work on BFT directly, but did write a lot of the code for the system it's built on (FBCB2). We saw the Land Warrior system in the early days and we knew it wouldn't fly. Nobody was really listening to us back then either.

    Before you start your bad-ass kung fu shit choke move on me, let me point out a few things:

    1. We (developers) don't get much of a choice *most* of the time on some of these projects. PHB's exist in the defense world just like they do in the Real World [tm].

    2. We KNOW some of these systems are huge steaming turds. We don't like them either but we do what we can to make sure they work and are as useful and reliable as we can make them. You can afford to not sweat the details writing a game. You can't in real life.

    3. We also operate under a fog of war. Information doesn't flow down to us most of the time. Decisions get made by higher ups and we hear about them sometimes days before we have to ship. We do a LOT of guessing on what YOU need and how YOU will use the system. It sucks but think about how bad they would be if we didn't.

    4. We realize that lives depend on them working properly. I personally have had to work on code for fixes that were needed immediately out in the field (Afghanistan, initial Iraq invasion). We've pulled all nighters to get the patches out that were urgently needed for a mission.

    For the rest of the slashdot crowd:

    Yes, we run linux. Be grateful. We used to run SCO.
  • by theshowmecanuck ( 703852 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @08:28PM (#18790731) Journal

    You ask for something that doesn't have a short answer:

    I agree, mass killing humans for profit and power is a bad thing. But on the other hand it is human nature. It is an extension of our older instincts to protect and expand our territory. More territory, more food, better chance for survival. The problem is, we don't really need to fight to expand anything any more. We're not likely to starve to death any more. So it is best that we try hard to keep this in check. However, going to war to defend ourselves is perfectly justifiable.

    So Afghanistan is an easy one to address. From a 'noble' point of view, we know that their government didn't respect basic human decency and freedoms for one. They sanctioned killing women for things like trying to get an education, reading books, or showing their face in public. From a defensive point of view, the Taliban (the ruling government of Afghanistan at the time) also didn't respect international protocols and basic understandings in that they sheltered a terrorist group (Al Quaida) even after that group admitted to the terrorist attacks against the United States which killed close to 3000 civilians (including other foreign nationals... about 200 Canadians among them). Not only did the Taliban refuse to give up the culprits, they refused to take any actions to punish or even curb their activities. This in itself can be seen as an implicit declaration of war. Limiting the ability of a foreign rogue nation to perpetrate or allow to perpetrate mass killing is a very valid reason for being there. At the same time, schools (real schools not fanatic religious schools for boys only) are now operating again, and basic human rights are returning in a limited way. Maybe not what you want, but certainly better then they were under the Taliban. You might also note, that some of the most active elements fighting NATO in Afghanistan are Arabs, not Afghanis. This is because the Arabs that are there (and not all Arabs in general) are mostly members of Al Quaida who want a return to Afghanistan of a system that allowed them to practise and organize their terrorist activities unchecked. You are very naive if you think dialogue would have changed anything in Afghanistan. Mind you, politicians are naive if they think it will be easy to effect any permanent change there. How do you get rid of a couple millennia worth of warlord mentality?

    On the other hand, I already said I didn't agree with the Iraq campaign. It was not really necessary at the time (Hussein's posturing was not really a threat), and draws too many resources away from Afghanistan which was really justifiable. And to top it, they did a piss poor job executing the invasion. Instead of the surge now, they should have had two or three times the troops in the first place; to replace the police that would go missing after an invasion, to guard the weapons/ammunition dumps of the former Iraqi army (which weren't guarded... hence all of the dumps' contents disappeared thus the amount of IEDs), to make sure militias and civil war didn't happen (Saddam was the only reason they didn't have a civil ware before... just like Tito in Yugoslavia... once he was gone, unless there was another iron fist, boom, the country goes up in smoke). Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld really did run the war like a business process. The bare minimum to do the job to keep costs down. Then crow about how successful they were while neglecting the fact that the after implementation support issues were never really thought out since most busines managers all seem to have a 'Pollyanna' attitude. This doesn't mean I don't feel for the troops on the ground who have to deal with the bad decisions of their leaders. And I don't expect them all to agree with me about their leaders either BTW.

    On the other hand, Hussein really was a bloody tyrant and his sons were just animals, pure and simple. But maybe that is what it took to maintain the peace there. Anyway, I'm never really sorry to see these kinds of people done in. Personall

  • by dbIII ( 701233 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @08:37PM (#18790843)

    Then you have to think about the fact that US trained soldiers are quite possibly the most accurately trained soldiers in the world compared to many home trained insurgents who receive little to none firearms training.

    The Russians said that about Afganistan too - and found the enemy had both more weapons training and more combat experience. Also consider that the broad focus of training over a fairly short time in the US military is likely to mean that guys that only drilled a lot to shoot things are going to be more accurate with the same sorts of weapons. The thing that makes the Taliban frightening is they have spent their entire lives at war and they ran an entire country along the lines they had learned in the brutal refugee camps where they grew up.

  • by Gregoyle ( 122532 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @08:54PM (#18791095)
    I'm in the US Army, and I agree. I'd like to have *lighter* body armor with flexible plates that cover more of my body, a more reliable rifle, and better issued boots.

    As far as night operations go, the only thing I wish we could get is a set of nods that aren't as long as a toilet paper tube and don't look like you're looking through one. If we could have nods that covered both eyes like a pair of PVS-15's and were only 0.5-1 inch long I would be ecstatic.

    Soldiers don't like the Land Warrior setup because it sucks. It's big, heavy, unreliable, battery powered (which means you need to carry spares) and distracts from the real threats to our soldiers, i.e. suicide bombers, snipers, and IED's. You need all your senses to find these before they find you, and having a display in your eye telling you where your buddies are and what the ambient temperature is just distracts you from the things that are actually important.

    Situational awareness is exactly what suffers here. You may know where people are and what their heart rate is, but you don't realize that the guy over there isn't holding a video camera, he's holding an rpg.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @08:54PM (#18791111)
    You're wrong. "Assault rifle" has a clear definition. It's a man-carried selective fire rifle that uses a cartridge bigger than handgun ammo and smaller than machine gun ammo. "Assault weapon" is a political term that means "scary looking." For example, in California, any rifle with a detachable magazine and a {pistol grip | bayonet lug | collapsable/folding stock} is an assault weapon. Also, any pistol with a foregrip is an "assault weapon." It's all cosmetics.
  • by Tickletaint ( 1088359 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @09:09PM (#18791267) Journal
    Hahaha, yeah! Because the targets of violence are criminals too!

    Except they aren't. Your comment only makes sense, even tongue-in-cheek, if you consider those who live and work in close physical proximity to these "urban criminals" of yours, criminal themselves. And what could be behind such an attitude, I wonder? Hmm?

    Good grief, you're disgusting.
  • Hear hear! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Gregoyle ( 122532 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @09:14PM (#18791339)
    From a grunt-

    I agree wholeheartedly. If we put one quarter as much money towards obtaining better (i.e. lighter, flexible) body armor, boots, and rifles, not to mention nods (the PVS-14's are what, 10 years old?), we'd be in much better shape.

    I already hump 65 lbs or so before I even put my ruck on; don't give me even more crap to carry that isn't going to help in 95% of the situations I will face. Seeing around corners with my weaponsight is cool, but it's not cool when the weaponsight is bigger than a thermal scope and heavier to boot. Not to mention the ridiculous wire connecting me to my weapon. I'd rather carry a thermal scope, at least they can see through walls.

    Not to mention the fact that any current model of heads up display will get guys killed. Try doing any kind of CQB with that ridiculous stuff on your head. If you have live opponents you'll find yourself dead pretty quickly. It gets in the way and distracts you. Not to mention the fact that the real threats we face on a day to day basis are from things that require our complete attention to detect: IEDs, snipers, and suicide bombers. I don't want to be distracted by the view from my gun's sight or my buddy's heart rate when I'm scanning. Scanning is how a soldier survives. If you're looking for the guy who's on mid-cycle leave from Iraq or Afghanistan, just find the guy who's moving his head and eyes constantly scanning and who gets tense and stops talking in large crowds. We don't need this crap distracting us from our jobs.

    Give me the stuff that will actually help. Why does the 5.56 coming out of my personal weapon punch little tiny holes in people at 150 meters when it should make great big ones? Maybe we should fix that instead of spending umpteen billion dollars in order to attach a video camera to my helmet, which is already too freaking heavy. Why does my rifle malfunction if I don't treat it like a beloved little sister and baby it every 6 hours or so? Better rifle technology has been available for a decade at least. why don't I have it? Because we are spending our money jacking off the military contractors.

    Hear hear.
  • Re:you don't say? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by McFadden ( 809368 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @09:24PM (#18791435)
    It seems to me that some of the ideas are just fundamentally flawed and not based on everyday experience. I know for a fact that when I'm walking down the street, listening to my i-Pod, I'm less attentive to what's around me. Even crossing a busy road requires a certain amount of extra care because I don't have the aural feedback to help me position the approaching traffic, that my ears would normally provide. And that's in a civilian setting with nothing other than speeding cars to threaten my existence.

    If I was ever to find myself in close-combat where I was engaging a bunch of enemy combatants in a kill-or-be-killed situation, I'd want full possession of ALL my senses. Having my buddies voices buzzing away in my ears would be the first thing I'd want to shut off.

    The human body and it's capabilities are the products of millions of years of evolution and refinement. This kit is just a few years old. Personally I'd rather trust what nature gave me.
  • by radtea ( 464814 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @09:37PM (#18791607)
    How about: the system turns off if any component is disconnected or removed from the body, and requires a code to log in when turned on? Sounds easy enough to me...

    Sure, because additional systems designed to lock out users never cause actual problems in the field...
  • Re:you don't say? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @09:43PM (#18791695)
    Don't ask, don't tell.
  • Re:Yeah... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jhol13 ( 1087781 ) on Wednesday April 18, 2007 @09:58PM (#18791901)
    Soldiers??? Do you have any clue who gets killed in modern wars?
  • by norton_I ( 64015 ) <hobbes@utrek.dhs.org> on Thursday April 19, 2007 @01:32AM (#18793915)

    The 2nd Amendment in the US Constitution is not there to protect the rights of deer hunters.

    Agreed. And I never even implied it was. The discussion was on whether categories of firearms are sufficiently different that we might make a legal distinction in how they are treated. The answer to that question is unequivocally yes. Whether we need or want to make those distinctions is up for debate. My feeling is we should.

    Incidentally, in my opinion, the discussion about whether or not the populace should be armed or not was resolved to my satisfaction more than 200 years ago, and it's been downhill since then.

    Luckily nothing has changed in 200 years.

    People going on shooting rampages is terrible, but a statistically insignificant effect. However gun crime on the whole is absolutely relevent to the discussion of whether and how the populace should be armed. It is not the whole story, but if you insist it is not part of the story, you are a moron. Self defense is another important issue, and protection from tyrannical regimes is a factor, if somewhat theoretical in modern America. Protection from invaiding forces, as in a well regulated militia, is a nice idea, though I think we have that covered pretty well. The practicality of trying to get guns away from would-be criminals rather than merely taking them from honest civillians is another thing we have to deal with. Gun safety and training. The list goes on.
  • by westyx ( 95706 ) on Thursday April 19, 2007 @05:40AM (#18795261)
    Boston was a major source of funds for the IRA, an organisation that went so far as to mortar the then Prime Minister of england Margaret Thatcher.

    The united states didn't care when britain came calling. Come 911, suddenly things tightened up.

    Does this mean that the united states implicitly declared war on england, only to renounce it after 911?
  • by Bucky340 ( 1020993 ) on Thursday April 19, 2007 @08:52AM (#18796349)
    Oh Dear GOD this is gonna suck. Don't get me wrong, I love gadgets and new tech, but the battlefield is not a place I want it. But I guess if I'd had mp3's and a digital player in 1990, the first gulf war wouldn't have sucked quite so much! But seriously, I can't believe the ever increasing demands place upon the common grunt. When I talk to my friends still in service, it seems like they're constantly having new crap to tote and maintain and not lose, because goddammit, you signed for it! ughh. But I'm a luddite when it comes to soldiers gear. I don't even like optics on a rifle. Plenty of range time is all you need to be familiar with your weapon. Iron sights just kind of sit there small like in your view of the world--they don't force you to see it spearately. Just my two cents. I know range time is expensive. I was a driver for my first sargeant for a couple of months before I got out, and he was amazed and somewhat troubled by my preference to not use night vision when there was a good moon. I just liked having a little bit of depth perception. I do like GPS--it's a freaking miracle tool, for soldiers and farmers and surveyors and every joe on the planet! I like modern textiles that keep you warm or cool, dry and windproofed--i kile it when your crotch doesn't rot away! And I damn sure like the new body armor. Now that's a place where R&D could pay off even more. Keep making it lighter without lessening protection. And for God's agnostic sake, don't make the next rifle heavier and bulkier! Sorry for the rant...
  • Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bkr1_2k ( 237627 ) on Thursday April 19, 2007 @10:25AM (#18797629)
    "Force-on-force the US Army is incredibly effective, but playing insurgent-bait sucks."

    A lesson most of us with military backgrounds learned from Vietnam. Somehow the current administration didn't get the memo though.

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