Hybrid Cars No Better than 'Intelligent' Cars

eldavojohn writes "There's no doubt been a lot of analysis done recently on energy consumption, especially on the road. Now, a study released today reveals that cars with traffic flow sensors built into them can perform just as efficiently as hybrids. The concept of an 'intelligent' car that communicates with the highway or other cars is an old idea, but the idea of them using sensors to anticipate braking could vastly reduce fossil fuel consumption. From the article, 'Under the US and European cycles, hybrid-matching fuel economy was reached with a look-ahead predictability of less than 60 seconds. If the predictability was boosted to 180 seconds, the newly-intelligent car was 33 percent more fuel-efficient than when it was unconverted.' Now, the real question will be whether or not you can convince consumers that the three minutes of coasting up to a red light or halted traffic is worth the 33 percent less gas and replacing your brake pads/cylinders less often."

can't you just do this now?

[192939495969798999]

I thought just "not excessively racing the engine" saves gas, i.e. using cruise control, coasting, etc. Can't we just teach people to do this now? If you have to push on the gas to pass someone, does the chip say "nope, too much gas"?

Weeell

[u-bend]

In my opinion, the chief function of hybrids has always been as a stepping stone. They're not great in and of themselves, and anything that merely reduces gasoline consumption rather than replacing it can be seen as something that prolongs oil dependence and all the problems associated with it. However, adoption of hybrids shows the big guys that the public is willing to invest in new and more efficient kinds of vehicles, and will hopefully fuel research into alternate energy sources.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[msimm]

I was woI wonder how much more "intelligently" people drive when they have a display giving gas usage feedback like they do in hybrids (and some other newer cars?). I drive a Yaris, which does pretty differently depending on how I'm driving. Concrete feedback on the dash and I'd probably pay more attention.

Want economy?

[ackthpt]

• Drive the speed limit
• Avoid fast accelerations from a stop
• No lift kits, remove racks when not in use, reduce drag

food for thought...

[tomstdenis]

I drive a Ford Focus 2007 sedan and in the first couple weeks I had the car I drove fairly sporty [e.g. speed limit all the time no coasting] and got about 13L/100Km in the city. I've spent the last week and a bit driving more carefully, that is, coasting to stops, using cruise control whenever possible, not accelerating as quickly to the next redlight. When I filled up yesterday I purchased 15L of fuel for 154Km of distance. or about 10L/100Km.

In yankee, I'm getting 23.6MPG now instead of 18.2MPG (both in city) for a boost of 29.7% more MPG. I still do the speed limit, I'm just not as heavy on the gas. And when I hit the speed limit I use cruise control where possible. I also don't keep constant speed when there is a red up ahead. Usually I'm doing 20-30 kph under the limit by time I have to brake. If this could be helped via a computer I'm all for it.

Obviously my "study" isn't really comprehensive. But given that i do the same 14Km route every day there aren't a lot of variables in the mix.

Tom

The idiot behind you

[Harmonious Botch]

I drive a lot for business, about 1500 miles / month in L.A and other parts of southern California. I have a conventional IC car, and driving carefully can save a significant amount of money, so I've tried to drive like TFA says...but this whole scheme does not take into account the guy behind you - the one who wants to rush up to that red light. They will honk, swerve in and out of traffic to get around you, and generally cause more trouble for you and surrounding drivers than it is worth.

Re:Hybrid Intelligent Cars?

[RingDev]

The nature of hybrids means they are already recouping a lot of the wasted energy from slowing a car. That would make me expect that hybrids would receive less of an energy conservation boost from intelligent controls, but that they would be able to break later and still retain the same performance that conventional engines with intelligence have. So the net energy consumed would be (roughly) the same over all, but Hybrids could drive faster.

-Rick

the perfect is the enemy of the good

[Anonymous Coward]

OK. This is great and all, and SHOULD be pursued.

However

Hybrids are deployable on an individual basis. I can but a Hybrid today, mix in with the existing traffic and infrastructure, and immediately get some benefit.

These "Intelligent" cars seem to assume a huge infrastructure update. They also/alternatively seem to require that everyone else upgrade their cars for me to see the benefit.

Like I said, I think that this concept could be a good thing, but from where I stand, it looks more like the "mission to mars" or the "hydrogen economy": a pie in the sky concept designed to kill off any practical partial solutions while everyone waits for nirvana.

There is an easy way to increase gas mileage now:

[NeutronCowboy]

Coordinate the damn traffic lights. Yes, maybe I do have a knack for triggering a red light when I drive up to it. But what I don't understand is why on major expressways (essentially freeways through urban areas with traffic lights), red lights are triggered when a single car comes to a stop at a small cross road. The net effect is that in order to get a single car across the road in less than 20 seconds, 10 cars have to come to a stop for 20 seconds.

Seriously, is it that hard to tie the road sensors to timing chips? It doesn't even have to be done on all roads - but anything labeled an expressway, as well as a major roads with known traffic patterns should all have coordinated lights at all times. Expressway cuts through residential areas for 3 miles? Have a green wave run one way in the morning and the other way in the evening. Major road intersects with expressway? All lights on that major road are timed according to the same mechanism, except the one that controls the intersection with the expressway. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. Any improvement over the current idiocy of stopping 10 cars to prevent one car from idling for more than 20 seconds will result in a dramatic improvement in gas mileage.

How do I know? My car computer shows average gas mileage, as well as current. I can improve my gas mileage from 27 mpg to 32 mpg if I manage to coast through major roads at 45 mph, instead of having to stop at every friggin red light. All it takes is to have a timing chip control each light, program it according to traffic patterns and expected (or even desired!) speed of cars, and you're done. Instant improvement in gas mileage, and instant reduction in oil imports.

It boggles my mind how Europe had those things down pat 20 years ago, but here they still don't get the concept of a green wave on major roads.

Need Smarter Hybrids

[superid]

As others have already pointed out, hybrids could benefit from this too.

I have a prius. I have a 20+ mile commute one way. Yesterday I averaged 70.3 MPG for the trip home. I did this using manual "look ahead" and very carefully planning braking and coasting just to see how high I could get it. You can easily blow 10MPG with one bonehead maneuver from lack of attention but this manual concentration on mileage is probably as distracting as talking on a cell phone.

I'd welcome the technology in my prius or in my SUV. Both can benefit.

Re:Intelligent Drivers

[drinkypoo]

No, what we need is an utter lack of drivers. Eliminate cars and highways entirely, and spend the money on some alternate system instead. I like the idea of an electric PRT (personal rapid transit) system, although whether anyone will ever step up and build a useful one remains to be seen. In this world of pork and boondoggles, the answer is probably not. And of course the transition is difficult to impossible. But it would certainly be better for all of us.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[rolfwind]

From what I understand, "racing the engine" may not be worse than puttering along. Hypermilers use a "pulse and glide" system, and it said that accelerating at an RPM where your engine gives peak torque is more fuel efficient than going the absolute slowest RPM you can. Accelerating then coasting. Then accelerate again.

I'm not a hypermiler (they are willing to go too slow, sacrificing speed for mpg, and putting themselves at risk) but I drive like this and use other techniques to increase mileage and it is more fuel efficient. I also try to anticipate stops, lights and drive accordingly. If I see a light that just turned red 200 meters out, I try to coast there, maybe brake early, so that either I let my existing kinetic energy run out or so that I still have some speed when it turns green.

The people behind me don't like this, which I don't understand, because they want to race to the red light, brake the last 20-50 feet, and then start up from 0mph again. They are only wasting their gas and wearing out their brakes fasters, while not getting their any earlier.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[niiler]

From what this article [motherjones.com] says, they do. Of course, the driver who is the main focus of the article may have suicidal tendencies in how he drafts 18 wheelers and how he deals with stop signs in the name of saving gas. Still, it's an intriguing read.

Personally, I was just wondering why it had to be an either-or? Why can't the ultra-economy conscious have the intelligent sensors built into a hybrid car? One would imagine that this would be far better than either.

Re:Hybrid Intelligent Cars?

[tarlos25]

You're pretty close. One of the biggest advantages hybrids have is that you can drive them just like a typical ICE car and get better mileage. However, if you start adding in prediction of driving conditions, your mileage will go even higher. I drive a Prius, and when I drive it like everyone else drives, I get around 50-55 MPG. When I predict what's ahead of me and plan for it to save gas, I get around 60-63 MPG. If I drove like a true hypermiler, I could get much better. The regenerative braking only recovers a portion of the energy you've already used. It's better to use less in the first place. But even when "coasting", the Prius is still recovering a small amount of energy. The only real way to get it to coast is to actually put the car in neutral or deadband the engine (there is a point at which the engine stops regenerating, but still isn't providing motive force, depending on conditions it can be REALLY difficult to hit). But either way, the intelligent car won't do any good if the driver can override it, because very few people want to drive conservatively.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[Jorgandar]

I have a prius, only had it for 2 months. I used to drive a nissan sentra which was fairly zippy. I find that i'm less aggressive now that i have an MPG display. I start to cringe and ease off the acceleration when it drops below 30. it has a funny psycological effect. It also means i'm a less aggressive driver. I dont tailgate anymore, because extra lead time = more energy regenerated while breaking.

I wonder if we will see a pattern of people who have MPG displays getting into fewer accidents because they drive less aggressively? I want an insurance discount.

Re:There is an easy way to increase gas mileage no

[jo7hs2]

There are a few places that do this, mostly in tourist areas. Ocean City, Maryland has a rolling green light timing that works very well. Here in Birmingham, US 280 is a prime example of a road in need of proper timing. With lights, it can take an hour to get 8 miles, without, it takes 8 minutes. If I drive during rush hour all week, I get 280 miles to a tank. If I drive all week when there is no traffic, 400+ miles to a tank. Just because of the traffic the lights cause to get small feeder road users onto the main road.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[JWSmythe]

    I have a '00 TransAm WS/6 with a 6 speed. Stock it was 325hp.

    I cruised the length of I-10 (Jacksonville, FL to Los Angeles, CA) a few times now.

    On one trip, I normally held 80mph, and got 26mpg average across the whole trip.
    On another trip, I normally held 70mph to 75mph, and got 25mpg.

    On shorter trips, taking my time to accelerate up past 85, and then holding that in 6th gear works very well for better gas mileage. I can kill my economy by cruising at 55. :)

    I've discovered over the years that cars have a speed that they "like" to cruise at. They'll run a little easier, and give better gas mileage. I'm guessing it's somewhere up the power curve where it has enough power to push along. That would be high enough to push without needing to give extra gas, and loe enough to keep the RPM's low. i.e., if you get down to 500rpm, you'd have to stand on the gas to get it to hold a speed. If you're at 5000rpm, it's revving to fast. :)

    I put a vacuum gauge in mine too, as well as a digital air/fuel mixture gauge. It's very interesting, and ya, I do pay attention to it. If it runs up in the rich, or my vacuum drops, I'm accelerating too hard.

Re:food for thought...

[im_mac]

Driving habits make a huge difference. I went with a couple friends on a road trip to Atlanta (from NY with a stop in Delaware). For the three of us in a Honda Civic, mileage ran from 30-37mpg. The amusing part? The 30 was from the guy who always used cruise control and the 37 was from me who never used it. It was all interstate driving, with similar amounts of traffic.

So intelligent drivers are important.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[mobby_6kl]

Because such a bill would be just another piece of ridiculous regulation? Here's what the driver has to do:

• Keep the engine RPM low
  

In any case, I'd be surprised to see any modern car above the absolute lowest class without some kind of device that would keep track of fuel consumption. Our '85 Ford/Merkur Scorpio [wikipedia.org] had it, and my dad's more recent Nissan Primera has an even more advanced version accessible through its central console thingie [irishcar.com].

Re:You can do it without sensors, too.

[drinkypoo]

it's safer to do it that way, rather than cause some person behind me to tailgate me.

While I agree with what is safer, you shouldn't take this attitude. You are NOT causing the person behind you to tailgate you. Only they can do that. That's why it's called tailgating and not frontbumpering.

In principle a technological solution, where the cars are sending each other data, could be used to warn all the cars behind, so that they uniformly coast and slow down. That would be a really neat technology, and would probably save alot on gas. The key is that all the cars would have to "play by the rules."

Not all of them, just most of them. Get the mass operating that way, and the prisoner's dilemma will work for us, not against.

Of course, even that would be a monumental achievement...

Score -1, Retarded

[Platypii]

We have "personal rapid transit" and its called "cars."

Are you suggesting is installing train tracks to every house and business in america? And then people need to wait for a vehicle to pick them up? Or will they own their own? (like a car). Also, how will this system deal with passing, and avoiding obstacles, such as children running out on the tracks (which would now be everywhere, in your trasnportation "utopia").

If your main point was that it should be electric instead of fossil-fuel based, then I agree with you... but in regular cars and using our existing road system.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[rthille]

My '86 Jetta GLI had an upshift light that I drove by, when I wasn't trying to live up to the license plate ([#]1SPD FRK). I'd get ~30-35MPG, and on long trips could get more than 500 miles out of the sub-15gal tank.
Now we recently got a prius that gets about 45 (indicated), but cost twice as much (in non-inflation adjusted dollars).
Doesn't seem like great progress to me.

Re:Need Smarter Hybrids

[clonmult]

On the UKs top gear, they did the same run, in very similar traffic in both a Prius and a VW (I think it was a Lupo Diesel).

The Diesel gave better mileage, and some of the current spate of diesels result in lower emissions than the Prius. And they're often much better on fuel usage as well. The Prius is clever, but not the right way to go.

Me, I'm sticking to my '99 BMW 318iS. I just cannot get it under 30mpg. Did a long run (250 miles is a fair drive in the UK), averaged between 80 and 110mph, and it got 34mpg. Return journey was a little more sedate, between 70 and 80. Averaged about 45mpg. Thats from a relatively sporting car as well ..... haven't had the car for long, but its bloody excellent on fuel.

Reckon it'll be time for a track day son, reckon it should get under 20 to the gallon during that .....

Whats better than hybrids? Better hybrids.

[GreyFlcn]

Whats better than a hybrid?
Building a better hybrid.

In particular a plugin hybrid electric vehicle.
Or in this case a prius with a bigger battery.
(Although a fully electric car, with the bare minimum for a gasoline generator is more ideal)

This study found that in regions where electricity comes primarily from natural gas, a plugin hybrid puts up 3x less CO2 emmisions.
And in the least green region of the United States powered almost entirely by coal.
They found that the CO2 emmisions per mile were practically idential to a normal hybrid.
http://www.aceee.org/pubs/t061.htm [aceee.org]

Whats more, we could replace 84% of the US fleet of cars with electric, and not need to build even 1 new power plant by leveraging downtime grid usage. (More fuel use, but no new infrastructure needed)
http://blogs.business2.com/greenwombat/2006/12/plu gin_nation_g.html [business2.com]

Whats more, by having the distributed battery network stabalize the grid capacity.
We could actually make the grid far more reliable than it is today.
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/17930/ [technologyreview.com]
http://news.com.com/2100-11392_3-6174672.html [com.com]

And there's some pretty sexy electric cars on the way.
http://www.greyfalcon.net/electriccars.png [greyfalcon.net]

_

Cool part about all this?
You can get electricity from the grid at a cost similar to 50 cents a gallon.
http://www.greyfalcon.net/plugins [greyfalcon.net]

And it's the perfect, "flexible fuel", since electricity can come from practically anything.
Unlike Ethanol for instance, which might be even worse than gasoline in pollution.
http://www.greyfalcon.net/ethanol2 [greyfalcon.net]
http://www.greyfalcon.net/ethanol3 [greyfalcon.net]
And biodiesel, which could potentially make Indonesia/Malaysia put up more CO2 than China.
http://www.greyfalcon.net/biofuel [greyfalcon.net]

Best part about this from an environmental perspective, is that combines two big problems into one.
So all you have to do is green the grid, to green everything.

And that can readily be provided by printable solar panels
http://www.greyfalcon.net/pv [greyfalcon.net]

And geothermal using inexpensive super powered electric drilling motors
http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/?p=1206 [jcwinnie.biz]
http://www.rasertech.com/media/movies/html/well_to _wheels.html [rasertech.com]
http://www.insidegreentech.com/node/1088 [insidegreentech.com]

Re:can't you just do this now?

[Skye16]

Probably because, in some vehicles, it is just downright depressing.

Take my '01 Audi A4 Quattro v6. On average, I get approximately 18 mpg. On the highway, on a straight trip, using cruise control and driving at a relatively sedate 70mph, I get a spectacular 24.3 mpg. Honestly, it's a kick right in the mean bean machine.

It's even worse when you don't turn average on, and you have to go up a steep hill at a low speed. No one wants to see "5.6mpg" flash up on your screen, even if it is only for a few seconds.

Okay, with all that said, I do drive a lot more efficiently than I did when I first got the car, and was averaging about 14mpg on my way to work (which, as I somewhat alluded to earlier, I get 18). But seriously, 18 is as good as it gets? Seriously, in this case, "fuck" is the only word that applies. Or maybe "god fucking dammit", but it's still going with the same general theme.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a great idea.

In addition to the daily increases in 1 or 2 mpg due to a change in driving habits, if a driver sees that he's suddenly getting 4 or 5 fewer miles per gallon on average, he may be more likely to check his tire pressure or take his car in for a tuneup. I'm not one to keep up with scheduled maintenance, but if I get 20 or 30 miles less between fillups (I use the odometer-- don't have a fancy readout) I do go through the usual suspects, and often find something to bring me back up to par.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose you're driving a 2.7 litre V6 petrol engine limousine-spec? Well, what did you expect, it's a classical engine, BHPs don't come for free. I don't know about the U.S. of A., but here in Europe Diesel Cars are publicly accepted. Diesel's cheaper, and you get more torque (TDIs) from smaller displacement engines (2.5 TDI for the A4 for example@180HP) and pay less for the fuel. I don't know about taxes, though. In Europe you pay more for diesel cars, but there are ways to avoid that, legally.

You might want to know that cold engines burn on helluva lot more fuel than warm ones. I was astonished myself.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[iksbob]

"But seriously, 18 is as good as it gets?"
You've got a moderately large normally aspirated V6, moving over 3000 lbs of less-than-spectacular aerodynamics via an AWD drive train. Yes, that's as good as it gets.
I drive a '91 Honda CRX... 1.6l inline 4 (125 hp), about 2200 lbs, decent aero (it's sort of the spiritual predescessor of the Insight), front wheel drive, 4-speed automatic. I get 34-37 mpg mixed city/highway, and 42 mpg on long highway trips, cruising at about 75 mph. The relatively light weight and suspension design allows the car to handle quite well and accelerate respectably. This is not exotic technology. In fact, it's 15+ year old technology.
If you skip ahead a few years and look at the '96-00 generation of Civics, Honda sold a model on the japaneese market with a 1.5l, 126 hp inline 4, claimed to be capable of 70 mpg. The trick? A CVT transmission (something that's becoming almost common-place in the past few years), a little valve train mojo to let the engine computer disable one of the intake valves, and a wide-band oxygen sensor. No hybrid gear, traffic sensors or even special body work.
Where are these designs now? Who knows! Certainly not the US. But then, it's not like Americans would buy a NORMAL fuel efficient car... It's got to have some new flashy gizmo or technology they can brag about to their friends and co-workers.

Re:can't you just do this now?

[autophile]

I wonder if we'll see a pattern of them getting into *more* accidents because they're constantly watching the gauge instead of the road.

Well, no. The key is to watch the MPG display about as often as you watch the speedometer. Eventually, within a few weeks, you will learn what behaviors drive your MPG up or down, and then you will not have to watch the MPG display very often. At least, that is my own personal experience.

--Rob

Re:can't you just do this now?

[duffolonious]

Afaik, all engines - gasoline and electric are turned to have max efficiency at X rpms. With electric engines the max efficiency is near peak rpm's. With gasoline engines it's usually tuned to 2-3000 rpms.

This may be for technical reasons to some extent. But I'm pretty sure most of it deals with how they *expect* you to use the engine - and thus set the peak efficiency accordingly.

As AC pointed out in the sibling thread...

[sean.peters]

Cheap gas is why MPG hasn't gone up. And gas is being kept at an artificially low price by the "defense subsidy": we're using general tax revenue to pay for an enormous defense force, a main function of which is to maintain stability in the middle east. If motorists had to pay a gas tax to fund the portion of the defense budget devoted to USCENTCOM (plus other oil producing areas such as Nigeria, Indonesia, Venezuela, etc... but CENTCOM is by far the biggest), you'd see prices that reflected the actual costs of providing gasoline, and MPGs would go up in a big hurry.