Cell Phones Disable Keys for High-End Cars

Geoffrey.landis writes "Turns out if you have a top-end Nissan car, your cellphone may erase your car key. '"We discovered that if the I-Key touches a cellphone, outgoing or incoming calls have the potential to alter the electronic code inside the I-Key," Nissan spokesman Kyle Bazemore said. "The car won't start and the I-Key cannot be reprogrammed."'"

direct Reuters link

[Anonymous Coward]

How about a website without a required login?
Nissan warns U.S. cellphones can disable car keys [reuters.com]

FEWER

[Anonymous Coward]

"FEWER idiots," says the grammar Nazi.

Re:Stupid New Cars

[fred911]

"The problem was that your mom owns a Ford"

  Problem with your statement is that the Escape is a Mazda Tribute.

Re:Stupid New Cars

[iamdrscience]

"The problem was that your mom owns a Ford" Problem with your statement is that the Escape is a Mazda Tribute.

Nope, no problem, because not only does Ford own a 33.39% controlling interest in Mazda, but they also co-developed the Mazda Tribute.

Re:That's a crying shame...

[iamdrscience]

Sounds like a great way to lose friends, if you take a fuse you can put it back in and everything's fine, if you fry a key it'll can cost you a ridiculous amount (near $100) to get a replacement.

Then again, letting them drive runk is a pretty good way to lose friends as well :(

I betI know why!

[kurthr]

This probably only occurs with GSM cell phones. These phones use a TDMA (Time Domain Multiple Access) technique, which causes them to transmit at very high powers (2W) for short (1ms) times. Depending on the efficiency of the transmitters it's common for voltages over 20Vp-p (peak-to-peak) to be generated and transmitted to other devices.

The capacitive coupling of an antenna to a key could then be quite good at the 1-2GHz frequencies (0.5pF @ 2GHz => 150Ohms). That's a low enough impedance to power up a device (through its protection diodes) and cause it to reprogram itself due to noise on the inputs. It could actually even fry the poor little silicon device, if it rectified the voltage got up high enough (>5V) for any length of time.

It's not that hard a problem to prevent (put a filter on your inputs folks!), but I doubt the automotive key entry designers are normally thinking of transmitters at that power and frequency.

Re:Only high-end cars?

[EvilRyry]

Most American manufacturers stopped with the magical keys because consumers bitched about paying $100-$200 for a spare key.

Except they do...

[name_already_taken]

Electronic controls do not give anything that a well engineered engine does not

Huh?

Show me a car engine that can meet current emissions requirements without electronic controls while running on fuel that you can buy at your local gas station. You can't, because it simply isn't possible. Even diesels have computer controls these days.

Electronic controls are an absolute requirement for gasoline engines because of the fine level of control of air/fuel mixture and ignition timing required to burn the fuel efficiently and somewhat cleanly whilst not destroying the engine in the process.

One car I owned recently (a 1995 Chevy) had an 11:1 compression ratio and ran on 87 octane fuel (that's the lowest grade of gasoline available in most of the USA). Without electronic controls such as knock sensing, O2 sensor feedback, mass airflow measurement, and the precise control of both the quantity and timing of fuel injection and the timing of the ignition by a computer, it simply would have been impossible to reach the power level that engine developed (or even to drive at all with an 11:1 CR on 87 octane fuel without knocking holes in the pistons) and at the same time producing HC and CO emissions that were a fraction of the same size (5.7L V8) engine from ten model years earlier.

An easy example of how electronic controls have improved the reliability of modern cars is the elimination of the ignition distributor. Pretty much all modern cars do not have distributors now, because they were such a common point of failure for ignition systems that they made cars break down due to things like worn out cap and rotor, or burned points (going back to before 1975 when electronic ignition became pretty much mandatory). Take a look at the tune-up intervals in a modern car's maintenance schedule. It used to be you'd have to change half the ignition system out every couple of years - now the whole thing is good for at least 100K miles in most cases.

Without modern electronic engine controls, US cities would still be blanketed photochemical smog from vehicle exhaust, and people's cars would be significantly less fuel efficient and far less reliable.

Your statement that electronic controls are not a vast improvement over the previous mechanical and vacuum controls is patently incorrect.

This is news?

[nwbvt]

I thought that was a well known danger. My father recently got a car with one of those, and it came with a warning to keep the key away from electronics like TVs. Cell phones might be more problematic since people often keep them with their keys, but if they can do it too that probably means its a rare problem (otherwise we would have heard of a lot more people getting into this kind of trouble).

Re:Honda and Microwaves

[Anonymous Coward]

So Honda's logic was that the microwave is not in fact compling with FCC interference regulations, like the sticker on the back says it does?

That's not unreasonable. We usually buy the cheapest appliances, and there's virtually no testing on imports after the demo model. Since around 1995, I've seen some amazing crap inside electrical items that were supposedly UL and CSA certified.

And really, do you want to stand beside a microwave that can trigger car alarms? Take Honda's advice on that one.

Re:Only high-end cars? (Proximity Key!)

[WarrenLong]

These are not your regular key with an immobilizer chip. These are "proximity" keys. You just leave them in your pocket, purse or whatever. When you turn the ignition key, the car searches around "wirelessly" for the key. Same thing for opening the doors; you push a little black button on the door handle, and if you are in possession of the key, it unlocks. The car is surprisingly careful about where you have to be in order to accomplish these things. For example, it won't let you lock your keys in the car. I think it also detects the difference between a key in the driver's pocket vs. a key in the passenger's pocket and sets the driver's seat etc. appropriately.

New Owner -- G35

[alexfeig]

Just bought a 2007 Infiniti G35S and it's a beautiful car.

Infiniti has been dealing with the problem quite well.

This is really not as big of an issue as the press is making it out to be -- it's a very isolated issue. I keep my phone next to my Blackberry all day and haven't had any problems. On the G35 forums, maybe 3-4 people have run into the issue. All owners recieved a letter about 2 weeks ago informing us of the issue and that they would have a replacement key for us within a few months.

Read more about it here: http://g35driver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15378 8 [g35driver.com]

Re:Cannot be reprogrammed?

[Quietust]

When dealing with old-fashioned EPROMs, all bits are "1" when the ROM is erased. When you program it, some of the "1" bits go to "0" in order to represent the data you wanted to write.

Now, it's certainly possible to change additional "1" bits into "0"s into the ROM and change the data further, but it is not possible to change a "0" into a "1" without erasing the entire EPROM (by removing it from whatever device it was in and shining ultraviolet light into window on the top of the chip).

My guess is that something similar is happening here.

Bad, bad analogy!

[mangu]

The Model T was extremely simple, sturdy and reliable. Just to give you an idea, it didn't have a fuel pump. The tank was located above the engine, gasoline flowed down into the carburetor. There was no water pump either, water flowed through the radiator by convection. Ignition was powered by a magneto, it didn't need a battery.

The Model T had two different clutches, one for going forward and the other for reverse. When the forward clutch wore down and started slipping under heavy loads, one turned the car around to go up a steep hill. Or, if the brakes didn't work, you could use the reverse pedal to stop the car.

Perhaps one could say that Model Ts were so widely used because they were more reliable than horses. It's more probable that a horse would become sick and die than a Model T engine would need replacement.

Re:That's a crying shame...

[dawnzer]

I called my sister after reading this (she has a new Altima), and she said Nissan sent out letters awhile back about the problem. They said they are developing new ones that aren't affected by phones, and will be sending out replacements.

Re:Cannot be reprogrammed?

[terraformer]

Why would you make a key like that?

Oh, I dunno, maybe it is tamper resistant or something wacky like that...

Re:Only high-end cars?

[Anonymous Coward]

You do know that you can program the keys/ car computer yourself in about 5-15min(depends on car). It is usually a simple procedure that involves turning key to certain positions and hitting the brakes at certain times. Done this on many pats system keys for fords. Dealer wants like $150 to do it and I just refused to pay that much. I know in my area most of the dealerships if you now how to talk to them well teach you how to do and let you look at the factory manuels(one ford dealership actually let me copy their dvd/cd shop collection.)

Re:Honda and Microwaves

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

So Honda's logic was that the microwave is not in fact compling with FCC interference regulations, like the sticker on the back says it does?

Yeah, because the FCC reguires all microwave ovens to encrypt their emissions to prevent interference from confusing other devices.

Microwave ovens emit on the largely unregulated 2.4GHz band, the fact that crap on that frequency could hork up the Honda car alarm is almost certainly Honda's fault, regardless of if the oven exceeds signal strength limits or not. Especially on a security system, otherwise they've left the car owner a big wide denial of service vulnerability.

Re:That's a crying shame...

[prockcore]

You can still legally get lockout kits, and the (more proficient) car thieves know how to disable most alarms.

Hell, even the less proficient non car thieves know how to do so. My car came with a Karr alarm, and after a few years I lost the keyfob. The alarm wasn't armed, so I just let it be. A year or so later my battery died, and hooking up a new battery set off the alarm. I had no way to disable the alarm. Putting the key into the ignition didn't work (in fact, I couldn't even start the car).

So I looked down by the pedals and off to the left side is a little door, I opened it up and there was the alarm with a giant mass of wires going to a single plug. I unplugged it and boom, no alarm and the car starts fine.

Took me less than a minute to disable my alarm. Maybe my alarm wasn't hooked up right, I don't know, it came with the car.

Re:Only high-end cars?

[KiboMaster]

The upshot is that Nissan will re-design the key so it's not affected by cell-phones, new cars will ship with the redesigned key and owners of existing cars will have to pay a small fortune to replace the keys because it's not a safety recall issue.

I have a Nissan Altima. I received a letter from Nissan informing me of this issue several weeks ago. The letter states:

"Nissan is developing a modified I-key to prevent this from happening, and will provide you with these new keys, at no cost to you, in early fall 2007."

Re:Cannot be reprogrammed?

[v1]

One theory I have is that it's a bit like flashing your BIOS. Only in this case the flash goes bad and it bricks your key. (can't reflash bios once bios is hosed)

Re:Slightly OT

[mangu]

there's also something wrong with MY computer speakers

Check your line-in. If you have nothing connected there, disable the input at the control panel.

my clock radio

Clock radios are usually "el-cheapo" units with very high sensitivity antenna inputs. Designed for RFI.

my friend's speakers

Check the input connectors. Replace old cables, use only good-quality (gold plated connectors) cables at the inputs.

my TV

Same as clock radios.

and my computer monitor

Sorry, I can't explain that one...

Oh, and a plane's directional sensor that the Mythbusters team sat next to a phone.

I'm an electronics engineer and have worked most of my life in aerospace equipment. Electronic equipment in airplanes are *very* sensitive, they are designed to work far away from everything. There's no sense in a directional sensor that only works inside the airport. That's why no one is allowed to use cell phones in an airplane.

Cell phones (at least some GSM phones) cause short bursts of *massive* amounts of EM interference

Define "*massive*". Would a trillion (or, in British units, a million million) times do? Well, it's pretty normal for inputs in electronic equipment such as radios and TV receivers to have -120 dBm sensitivity. That means one trillionth of one milliwatt. A phone with a 100mW signal has a hundred trillion times more power than the smallest threshold a radio or TV can detect.

Cell phones are designed to have enough power to send signals through one or two concrete walls and that's all. If they were more powerful than that, their batteries wouldn't last. OTOH, radio and TV receivers are designed to detect the most feeble signals possible. The combination of a so-so transmitter in a cell phone with a non-limited sensitivity on a TV or radio is what makes RFI happen.

Re:Except they do...

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

You are fucking joking ! (no I don't need a reply)
Here in the UK cars are seldom above 2 litres, seldom above 4 cylinders, and are almost guaranteed to produce more power than your efforts - (ie. 120BHP /4 cyl/2 Lt) . and they are running unleaded and meet EU emission standards. Get off your high horse !

A typical V8 of that size in the US produces around 270HP.

And I gurantee that you have engines like that in the UK. They are used for the same kind of vehciles that they are used for in the US - light trucks. Your little 2 liter straight-4 is rediculously underpowered for even a moderate size pickup truck.

Now, whether or not people need light trucks to go to the foodstore is an entirely different matter. But most of the people who own pickup trucks actually use them. Whether you're hauling a big trailer on a ranch or taking lumber to a construction site, being able to move 1000kg is a very useful thing.

But then we aren't running AC and a massive stereo system

A/C and the alternator use a negligable amount of power in a modern vehicle.

we don't commute 500 miles a day

A very long commute in the US is 200 miles a day. A 500 mile commute would be at least 8 hours - you'd be commuting 100% of the time that you're not at work or asleep!

Mind you, I drive a 1.5 liter straight-4 Prius. I neither need nor desire a larger vehicle. Small vehicles are fine for many people, but pretending they are right for everyone is simply stupid. The only reason your vehicles are so much smaller and less powerful is because you pay so much more for gas.

Your DeLorean has computers...

[Alex Zepeda]

Yep. Computer controlled (albeit fairly primitive) ignition, check. Computer controlled fuel injection (again fairly primitive), check.

If you're feeling daring, pop off the distributor cap (a huge pain on that engine when it isn't shoved sideways into a DeLorean), pull off the rotor and the dust cap. Note the lack of points. Yep, that's called an electronic ignition. If you're feeling even more daring, pop off the intake manifold (hahaha...), and look at the air flow meter. Right around there you should see a frequency valve. Yep. That's a computer controlled solenoid designed to regulate the fuel mixture in response to the oxygen sensor. Or, you know, look at the smog plate and it should mention you've got an "O2S" (oxygen sensor in EPA vernacular). If your cams aren't completely shot, you might even be able to hear the frequency valve buzzing away with the engine idling.

Re:I betI know why!

[syzler]

The car uses the same algorithm to determine the next number which is how the car knows the next 256 numbers the key fob will send. When it receives a valid number it calculates the next 256 numbers from the most recently sent key.

So in theory you could cause your key fob to stop working if you press the button 256 times without being near the car since the number it would send would not be in the valid list of 256 numbers known by the car.

BTW, I do not know if all cars match up to 256 numbers from the key fob, I got the number from HowStuffWorks [howstuffworks.com].

Re:That's a crying shame...

[Spacezilla]

I didn't get it either. :(

Perhaps "You called her on her cellphone, didn't you?" would have been better. :)

Or perhaps I'm just stupid. :(

Re:Stupid New Cars

[bhtooefr]

Yeah, my Golf was UAW-built. (Between 1980 and 1989, Volkswagen did a little... experiment... in assembling cars in the US. It failed miserably due to lousy quality control (they got better in 1985, and my Golf is a 1986... but it's still inferior to even the Mexican-built VWs of the time), but American Honda ripped off the idea, except without the UAW, and it worked beautifully.)

Re:Slightly OT

[glesga_kiss]

I have noticed of late that when someone's cell phone rings in my house it's almost like a mini EMP just went off. If the phone is close to a set of speakers you can often tell before the phone even rings that there's a call incoming

This is not recent as you suggest; I saw the same thing around ten years ago. Generally it's "cheaper" systems that get interfered with the most.

Re:That's a crying shame...

[CastrTroy]

For future reference, if you reply to a thread that you've modded, your mods(?) get removed.

Re:Bad, bad analogy!

[smellsofbikes]

And they also got about 15,000 miles before you had to regrind all the valves because the valve seats were so soft. And they had negligible oil pressure because the oil pump, such as it was, just splashed oil up onto the main bearing ends and bottoms of the pistons, so if you did anything interesting involving lateral acceleration the engine would oil-starve and the bearings would all start galling. And because of the gravity feed fuel system, you couldn't drive up a hill forwards unless you had an absolutely full tank of gas, so you had to back up the hill.

Yes, it was extremely simple. It was even moderately sturdy for short periods of time. But reliable? compared to modern cars that can go 100,000 miles with *no service* -- not even oil changes -- it was a fiendish monster of horror and misery.

and, having rebuilt a couple flatheads from the 1940's, I don't want to imagine what rebuilding an engine built in 1920 would be like.

Re:That's a crying shame...

[bean123456789]

I can attest to this (I have an altima as well), Nissan sent me a letter a couple of weeks ago with total disclosure about the issue and said they would be sending replacement fobs soon. I have yet to get my replacements, but I think them taking responsibility like this is pretty cool for a car company.

Re:Except they do...

[Achromatic1978]

But most of the people who own pickup trucks actually use them. Whether you're hauling a big trailer on a ranch or taking lumber to a construction site, being able to move 1000kg is a very useful thing.

Hahaha. I nearly sprayed coffee all over my monitor. Let's rephrase:

"But most of the people who use or own pickup trucks for business/work actually use them."

That's far more accurate. Greater than 80% of the pickups I see every day are in gleaming, immaculate condition, far more obviously used for "status" than hauling lumber.