Google Spends Money to Jump-Start Hybrid Car Development 352
slugo writes "Internet search giant Google (GOOG) hopes to speed the development of plug-in hybrid cars by giving away millions of dollars to people and companies that have what appear to be practical ways to get plug-in hybrid automobiles to market faster. 'While many people don't associate Google with energy, analysts say the fit isn't all that unnatural. Renewable energy, unlike coal or nuclear, will likely come from thousands or tens of thousands of different locations. Analysts have long said that one of the big challenges will be managing that flow into and out of the nation's electric grid, and that companies that manage the flow of information are well placed to handle that task.'"
Why even bother with Hybrid Cars (Score:1, Insightful)
X-Prize (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'm betting ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why hybrids? (Score:5, Insightful)
Mmm, diesel hybrids.....
Aside from the battery issues, what is wrong with hybrids? AFAIK they're not particularly slow, ineffeicient (diesel hybrids can be pretty darn efficient), OR thirsty. I mean the whole POINT of them is that they are efficient (for city driving at least).
They're "complex" mostly because they're new and most mechanics don't know how to work on them. The idea is to get more out there and standardize them and make them less novel.
How are hybrids and evolutionary dead end if electric cars will eventually be the future? Hybrids will drive battery development, electric motor development, etc. Seems like a natural step to me. Where do you get off calling it a dead end.
Sticking with a purely combustion drive train the dead end.
-matthew
Re:Why hybrids? (Score:4, Insightful)
Or, in less metaphorical terms, they are the bridging technology that makes the transition to electics possible when the battery technology improves. When the first really economical, environmentally reasonable battery comes along, it will face the chicken-and-egg problem of cars first or charging stations first. Hybrids wiil solve that.
Wait a minute... (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't make any sense at all. It makes so little sense, I can't even think of an analogy close enough to what they said to properly mock them.
It's there money but personally I would (Score:3, Insightful)
Better batteries and fuel cells.
an efficient car takes a lot of resources for different parts, so the research money gets spread thin amongst many different technologies.
Relax, it's just an opinion.
Wha? (Score:4, Insightful)
Which forces me to ask why "companies that manage the flow of information are well placed to handle that task"?
You'd think that the power companies, at most, would need to update their billing software. WTF does managing the flow of information have to do with a $1 million grant? Am I missing something else?
As an aside, one of the continuing problems with electric vehicles is battery temperature.
Re:Why even bother with Hybrid Cars (Score:5, Insightful)
Hybrids are more efficient. Non hybrids have no way of recapturing the kinetic energy of the vehicle. Hybrids can capture and store that energy for use later. Also, a car that is cruising on the highway that only needs 30 hp to maintain speed could get that from an electric motor. If you were to run the car off electric only, then switch to gasoline-engine only (and recharging what was used when running on electric) and repeating, you would get better mileage than just cruising on gasoline (also note, this would not be effective at saving energy for a diesel car). Another thing about hybrids is that they generally size the engine and motor to match an equivalent gasoline only offering. That is, the gasoline engine is sized smaller, but the total available power is the same. That results in increased efficiency. And yes, I know there are ones like the Accord where the hybrid offers better acceleration than any other offering, but those are not the highest sellers, nor what people think of with hybrids. But even then, they are more efficient than if there were an offering with a just petrol engine which matched the acceleration.
Add to that the plug-in hybrids (which could spend much of their lives as if they are electric-only), and you have some very efficient choices.
Re:I'm betting ... (Score:2, Insightful)
If Google can help create a car that runs on whatever and doesn't cost a shitload to power up, then let them put their software in it (would you rather have Windows running in it :) ). I realize people haven't been trusting Google as much lately, but I trust them more then the oil companies.
Of course, that's not saying a lot.
Re:X-Prize (Score:3, Insightful)
Solar cells need a lot of work... and politics (Score:5, Insightful)
To achieve a goal of getting to 10% of PV power in one year, you'd need to put in 10% * 10 = 100% of current electrical power. That would require first doubling existing electrical generation capacity. Even a 2% PV goal requires 20% of current generation capacity which is still way too high (and 2% per year is hardly going to make any significant inroads - it would not even address growth).
Clearly PV will only ever work with a huge mindshift that goes away from curent silicon-based strategies to a new silicon-based strategy, or radically different strategy, with a far better payback. There are alternatives, but they lack funding and support eg. http://masseynews.massey.ac.nz/2007/Press_Releases /04-04-07.html [massey.ac.nz] This is not the only such different approach - there have been quite a few through the years.
The major labs are still focussed on silicon and high performance and fighting over conversion efficiency rather than $/W which is the important measurement for general usage. Until $/W is targetted as a primaray goal, these technologies will get nowhere useful.
Perhaps it is telling that many major oil companies (BP, Shell and others), with a vested interest in preserving the status quo, are directing a significant portion of the industry research.
Re:Why hybrids? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's nuketastic (Score:5, Insightful)
That's great and all, and I'm all in favor of utilizing the zillions of acres of rooftop in the US and around the world to accommodate solar cells. But if you're going to move the automobile infrastructure to electricity and away from petroleum, you're going to have to build more nuclear power plants.
why not hydrogen? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why hybrids? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It's nuketastic (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hopefully not (Score:5, Insightful)
For those who like details, A123 batteries kill Tesla's argument that smaller batteries just die faster, and don't save money. Small A123 batteries will last longer than your car, and never need to be replaced. They also have way lower series resistance, and can push one of those tiny 300HP induction motors http://acpropulsion.com/ [acpropulsion.com] with as much current than they can take. There's simply no reason that a modern plug-in Prius couldn't leave a Porche in the dust (ok, accept for those small hard tires, and crummy handling). By plugging into the grid, we give ourselves the freedom to produce energy however makes the most sense, whether solar, hydro, nuclear, gas, wind, or (God forbid) coal, oil sands, and oil shale. And if this sounds like an add for A123, it turns out that they're simply the first to market among many who will shortly sell competing batteries. Google continues to show some real vision!
Re:Why even bother with Hybrid Cars (Score:3, Insightful)
What am I missing?
Re:Why even bother with Hybrid Cars (Score:3, Insightful)
However, I have an issue with all this (Score:5, Insightful)
But yeah, Google doeas continue to show innovation.
Re:PHEV already exist (Score:4, Insightful)
The commercialization of plug-in hybrids is completely dependent on the ability to manufacture what are now top of the line lithium ion batteries for 40-70% less than they currently cost. I believe this is the focus of Google's money. 10 mill isn't going to get you anywhere with fuel cells (which have been 5 years away for 30 years).
Today's hybrids are not going to seriously dent our dependence on oil, plug-in hybrids absolutely could. Unless a major car company announces a release date for a retail plug-in by next year, I'm going to buy or build a Ford Escape plug-in conversion.
Re:why not hydrogen? (Score:1, Insightful)
Here's a clue. Hydrogen isn't an energy source any more than the wires that go into your house are. It's just for energy transportation.
Re:I'm betting ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'm betting ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm betting ... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's nothing wrong with trying to improve the world and make a profit at the same time, in fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's just about the best possible thing a proper capitalistic corporation can be doing. Beats the hell out of what most companies do... namely trying to make a buck by screwing over the planet and public.
A serious thought, for the moment... (Score:3, Insightful)
Coal fired power plants, which burn a non-renewable and expendable resource, release tons of "greenhouse gases" into the atmosphere. With Nuclear power, we know precisely where every single molecule of waste material goes, which is into a barrel, encased in ceramic, and stored away in a facility designed to last 5x longer than the radiological half-life of the waste material stored there.
The fear of nuclear energy has its rational sources. First is the environmental movement that fought against atmospheric testing of nuclear warheads during the cold war era. I applaud those efforts. What also happened is during this same period is we were taught what to do in case of a nuclear attack from Russia, which by every measure would have been horrific. Add in a 3 Mile Island and a Chernobyl and you've got an entire generation of Americans that has transferred the horror and fear of Nuclear weapons over to everything Nuclear. Fact is that 3 Mile Island, while it did release radon gas is not a catastrophe that even approaches the generational fear that it inspires and Chernobyl is a classic Soviet-Era f**k-up-cover-up situation. Its funny that nothing is ever said of the 100+ nuclear reactors currently in use in America, or that ALL of France is currently powered by Nuclear Power. With hundreds upon hundreds of plants in use throughout the globe running for all these years, all with nary an incident to report... What are we so afraid of?
Charging a battery takes electricity. Electricity that is generated from anything other than nuclear, wind, or solar power is a net negative on the 'greenhouse gases' scale. Of all those energy sources, the only one viable for long term is nuclear. Sorry, but it is a fact.
A renewable resource is one that can be replaced, like a tree. The lumber that is used to build houses, the wood that is used to make paper is all generated from (ghasp!) a renewable resource. What drives me nuts is that these multinational corporations that produce lumber and paper harvest it ALL from their OWN TREE FARMS. They own millions of acres of land where they methodically grow their trees on a rotational basis where they harvest the same spot every 20 years. Oh, and your Christmas tree; it is grown on a tree farm as well. To say that paper production or wood production depletes our natural resources is the same thing as saying that eating french fries depletes our national supply of potatoes.
I'm an expert (of sorts) in document printing, specifically with optical document security and printing of security papers. A small printing company I work with consumes 28 tons of paper every single day. They know exactly where the wood pulp comes from. You don't make paper from just any old wood pulp (although you could). The trees are bred and grown specifically for use in making paper. But some folks out there want you to believe that they are forever seeking a new rainforest to chop down to consume their insatiable desire for more wood pulp.
Uh, sorry folks, trees, yeah, trees are a renewable resource.
Re:Hopefully not (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope you're being ironic. The US corn industry is the richest bunch of corrupt thieves in the country. They put the RIAA and MPAA to shame. Not only do they get government subsidies so they can undercut the world market price, but their competitors are kept out of the US market by tariffs. Ever wonder why "sugar" is spelled "high fructose corn syrup" these days?
Re:It's nuketastic (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course we're going to have to build more nuclear power plants. Anyone who spends as much as a few hours looking at numbers and modeling scenarios (i.e. virtually no one) knows that. Even if you assume that Americans and Canadians can cut per capita energy usage in half (to the level of France or Japan), more nukes looks like part of the equation if you throw in independence from non-North American petroleum as a goal.
It's clear that the debate over energy usage, greenhouse gas emissions, etc is going to be conducted in the usual way -- by fools, liars, special interests, and total whack jobs, and is going to be based mostly on emotion, not reality. Like the totally bungled "War on Terror", it doesn't have to be that way. But it appears that folks really LIKE the pain they are inflicting on themselvs by making decisions based on wishful thinking, gut feel, and emotions rather than facts and logic..
We're going to have to make big time upgrades the power grid also.
Re:I'm betting ... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I'm betting ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I'm betting ... (Score:2, Insightful)
If the US automakers want my money they will build a car that I want at a price that I can afford. And if they can't do that, they don't need my money. They can't even keep up with the environmental mandates, which have already been pushed back for them. For all their other failings, even China has more strict environmental standards for autos than we do anywhere in the USA.
Chevy has one good car, the corvette, which I can't afford (and which is impractical anyway.) Ford has none - even their supercar, the GT, is a pile of crap (costs more than italian cars with ten times the soul and a fit and finish that wouldn't be at home on a yugo.) Chrysler is mostly held by Daimler-Benz now anyway; it's no accident that the name is DaimlerChrysler and not ChryslerDaimler. And they make a bunch of crap anyway. The Neon, the cheapie chrysler, is the most unsafe car sold in America today.
There are no American cars worth buying unless you are in the market for a turbo diesel pickup or a high-end sports car, period, end of story.