Internal Microsoft Email about Life at Google 410
An anonymous reader wrote in to give us "An interesting perspective on Google, from an internal email sent around Microsoft. Basically an interview that provides analysis about how Google compares to Microsoft from an employee perspective. Included are suggestions for what Microsoft might copy in order to stay competitive in the job market and criticisms of Google's "college kid" atmosphere."
isn't this normal? (Score:5, Insightful)
"People are generally in the building between 10am and about 6pm every day, but nearly everyone is on e-mail 24/7 and most people spend most of their evenings working from home."
Wow - I dunno about the rest of the world, but for our company that's the norm and we're all in our 30s/40s working for a marketing company
Lost me in the first para (Score:3, Insightful)
Ya, right.
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Lost me in the first para (Score:5, Insightful)
the moment I heard... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:3, Insightful)
A lot of Google sounds similar to the structure of the place where I work. There's a bit of an unhealthy spin that makes it sound like it ends up being worse- for example, valuing "degrees" over "experience"- Well, for one, I've been in class with a graduate student who was refused an internship from Google, and this guy was actually extremely intelligent; their reasoning was that he ought to start at a lower-tier job first (he wanted to be a dev?).
I mean, it sounds like they'd hire any old bum with a cool degree, which simply isn't true- I sincerely doubt that Google's products are the result of code that *my* classmates could chug out; college code tends to be extremely inelegant and barely operational. I think, instead, google might *gasp* be hiring lots of programmers since they're a new company (relatively). Furthermore, maybe Stanford is simply buddy-buddy with Google; I know that's the case between utexas engineering and AMD; we tend to give them quite a few interns and coops, not because they think utexas is superior, but because they get a *lot* of applicants from utexas.
Not to bust on Microsoft- despite the slashdot official stance on them, I was seeking a job with them earlier, and it looked to me like they treated their employees very, very well.
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know so many people in IT that work more, 8 or 9am to 7pm, or more, and often work from home too...
I was approached by Google, got interviewed, and at the end declined because I wasn't technical enough to be the Director of Engineering (or something like that as a tittle). Which is utter bs. There was not a single question about management. It was 100% technical, which is fine, I am very technical and have always been, and in all my reviews at all my jobs was/am always told one of the most technically savy person. Their style of questions was grilling you more and more and going deeper and deeper into the questions and technicalities until you failed. Started as what is TCP and UDP to going down and down and down the stack, syncookies, handshakes, how it works, to how sequence numbers are generated and more to more obscure points... At one point I couldn't answer anymore.
I used to know but not anymore. I told them, and I told them a 2 minute search on google itself will turn up the results so there is no need to know that by heart. In all my previous jobs, and that is my way of thinking, initial knowledge is not what gets the job done. Ability to do research and learn quickly IS the most important thing.
In my opinion people there at google tend to be pretentious and full of themselves. But that is my personal opinion and I am glad I don't work there in fact, sure there are some nice benefits and all, but it isn't everything. I got a few job offers and work for one of the best company around, and in my mind a much better company than Google...
Re:New Communism? (Score:2, Insightful)
Laughable "Google is like my mommy" arguments (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why negative responses? (Score:1, Insightful)
Slashdot seems to have a rather large number of people, shall we say, slightly left of stalin. Needless to say, they'll do just about anything to "change reality". Never forget that evil is defined, and enforced by their groupthink (if you have any doubts as to what groupthink will do to a society, look at the red khmer, or nazi germany, or any muslim nation), or you will face the consequences. Just watch this post.
Needless to say the microsoft scaremongering and daemonizing, while occasionally "somewhat" justified, generally is just mindless me-too infantile behavior. Same with topics about the american government (okay, they're not perfect, but they try, which is more than can be said for most regimes people here seem to support, such as Iran or Venezuela), and just watch what they say about Bush or global warming.
You see politics is not about reality. For example the reality is very simple : the UN is run by oppressive regimes, and is nowhere near the "freedom-promoting" organization it claims to be. Just check it's stances and membership with an open mind, and you'll see. There is no way that e.g. khatami will every promote liberty, since the first thing a free Iran would do is kill him. Many, many regimes are run like that one, or worse.
Next "liberalism" is about a lot of things, but not about letting people do what they want. In fact, it's about outlawing a LOT of behavior (smoking, drinking,
Given that many people here openly support these types of ideas, are you really surprised to find hating idiots here ?
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:2, Insightful)
Over here on the sane side of the Atlantic I work 9-5 and spend my evenings and weekends with my family and friends doing anything except working. Do you get paid extra for all those extra hours?
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought the US had abolished slavery. Why on earth does anyone put up with that??? Is the job market really that bad?
I can accept a few days of overtime pending product launch, but if a company expected me to me available like that I would tell them to go f*** themselves.
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate this. When did people become so obsessed with work? I've posted my feelings about doing work on "personal time" before and I'm going to restate it here: When you leave the office, you're done. Regardless of how the company decides to pay you and regardless of your own warped feelings about how you should operate, you should NOT work once you leave.
Leave work at work even if you LOVE your job. You should LOVE your personal time a ton more.
In my opinion people there at google tend to be pretentious and full of themselves.
I feel the same way about people that feel that they are so important that they must work from home... It's as if the world will stop turning if they take vacation or have personal time. I work with a woman like that and being that she spends most of her day taking personal phone calls and playing Hearts, I have a real problem with her telling everyone how important her job is to the institution.
Re:From the perspective of someone on the outside. (Score:5, Insightful)
You can argue it any way you like, Microsoft is a little more agressive in the industry and Google believes if you build a great product people will come(and with their name they believe everything they do is a great product whether it is or isn't because they get people just because of their name). Microsoft has given up on better/quicker and gone for "How to make this necessary?"
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:5, Insightful)
You have to draw a line between work and life, before work takes over your life. If these guys have to stay in tune with what is going on at work all the time, they are setting themselves up for less enjoyment of life.
Wrong about private office space (Score:5, Insightful)
I used to work in a team room environment, where all the developers sat together in one room (there were 10-15 of us or so), working on the same product. I loved working in that environment. You could talk to anyone just like that right away. Not having to walk for a minute or half a minute makes quite a difference, believe it or not. Since the barrier for asking someone for help or ideas is so low (lean over and speak), it's much easier to quickly bounce off ideas without having to interrupt your own flow. Also, you overhear others' problems and ideas, and pitch in with your own. Countless times I've heard someone lamenting some problem and was able to chip in with "oh I just solved the same issue."
Yes, you must have headphones in the team room, because sometimes you just need to concentrate and headphones are essential to drown out the noise.
Unfortunately, I am back to working in a cube and I miss the team room days.
Evil Empire (Score:4, Insightful)
Finally, I'm not jealous! (Score:5, Insightful)
Then I got a job at a video game company. It was a smaller firm, but a lot of fun to work at. People were all young (I'm only 26), they had free food and lots of perks. You could go to work in shorts and a tshirt.
But then I started to see the down sides of it all. I worked long hours, and often worked from home. My health insurance wasn't anything special. Being on email till the wee hours of the night was an annoyance.
And then I found another job, and left.
Now I work for a place I have no real feeling of accomplishment, nor is it a place I yearned to work for. But I get in at 10am, I am out the door at the latest by 6pm. I don't work from home. I don't get on email after I leave work. Emergencies come up and then I take care of them, but I am able to separate my work life from my personal life with great distinction. My co-workers are in their 30s and 40s and 50s, all of them have families and leave on time to make sure that they are home to pick up their kids, play with them, and be at their soccer games. They encourage me to leave work and go out on a date, watch a movie, read a book, and do something constructive. They know that working isn't the point of life, but merely a part of it.
And now at the age of 26, I finally have a job that I yearned for, but didn't know I wanted.
Do yourselves a favor -- find a job that will let you live your life reasonably. You will be better at your job because you appreciate it, not because you are dying for it.
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:3, Insightful)
Working from home sometime is not about being important. I have noone at home - I live alone, that I can do whatever I want, and what is good for me and my career. That is one of the differences between being career oriented in a big firm, not being, and being successfull. My bonus at the end of the year is commensurate with my work done/impression made, so that is a reason enough to go the extra-mile especially when it does not really interfere with personal time... makes the difference between a $20K bonus and a $50K one...
I strictly work 7.75 hours per day mon-fri (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, you have to set your limits, because many employers will be happy to take all they can get from you, without thought to the future.
Unfortunately, in an employment situation like we have now in the US, there is little-to-no disincentive for employers to put workers on the burnout track, as a matter of course.
Take if from the "last" great thing (Score:5, Insightful)
MS is probably just like that. A husk on cruise control that's driven by costs, bureaucracy and slack. A place where nothing new happens because the executives are paranoid rich blockheads.
Some MS insider should check to see what the average tenure with the company is now. I'm sure its dropping. If it's a really low number like mine is then that's a red flag for a company that just wants to operate on the lowest cost basis, probably out of the country and where innovation and quality are already dead.
The most important difference (Score:2, Insightful)
The fact that this was a non-factor in the discussion perhaps indicates that this MS->Google->MS employee really is working where he belongs.
(Yes, I know that Google hasn't perfectly observed its "do no evil" rule, but it still seems a heck of a lot better than M$ in this regard.)
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Who died and made you boss? (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as it doesn't intrude on my life, I'm all for that. However, if you work 24/7 and our mutual boss wants to know why I'm not accomplishing 20 tasks a day, that gets annoying and your work habit is affecting me. If our mutual boss decides to make you the "norm" and expects everyone to follow suit, then you've created an environment for burnout and your work habit is affecting me. If you get in the habit of working 24/7 and you catch a cold and come in to work anyway, and I catch your cold, your work habit is affecting me. You infect me with a cold and I'm staying home, dammit. You infect other, saner, people and they'll stay home too.
Allowing someone to behave detrimentally in a work environment sets a dangerous precedent because nobody works in a bubble; it changes the work culture to one that benefits the organization unequally over the individual, it creates health risks, and combined, potentially skews a society's economy. That's why I care if *you* work yourself to the bone. You're not only my colleague but you're a barometer of the world around me.
Re:Finally, I'm not jealous! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:3, Insightful)
To compare this process to slavery is disingenuous. Ask a REAL slave from Mauritania or the Sudan whether having the choice to go to work at Google is slavery.
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:1, Insightful)
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm under the assumption that pretty much all "serious" IT jobs are like this. Employers started demanding more when things were tight, and now it just continues to get worse. Personally, I think it is BS as well, even though my job fits that description. I got promoted about six months ago, and at the time was working 80+ hours a week to get everything covered for the company. I didn't mind, it was temporary, and I had some flexibility. I was more or less making my schedule up as I went, so I was coming in fairly late. Since I'm not a morning person, that and the extra cash (not a salary employee) made up for it.
Then things settled down, and since I didn't encounter any serious problems, I adopted a 10-11AM to 7-8 PM schedule. It worked well, since mornings here are usually slow, and evenings tend to see a lot of the workload. Customers prefer not to have anything serious done on their networks during business hours and all.
Given that I'm making about as much as the people under me should be, I viewed the flexibility as my big reason for sticking around. I could do what I needed as long as I got the job done, and was available by phone the rest of the time for emergencies. I was fairly happy with things, little stress, and was productive most of the time I was at work.
A month or two ago, I got summoned to my boss's office. I was informed that the flexible schedule thing just wasn't going to work -- I was expected to be there at 8 AM sharp, every morning. I pointed out that I really wasn't needed at that time, as well as the fact that I usually had to stay late to get things done anyway. Didn't matter. I wasn't directly told that I was going to have to work 11-12 hours a day at the office, as well as be available 24/7 for emergencies, but it was made clear that there weren't any other options.
Since then, my productivity has gone through the floor. I'm not awake enough to be of any serious use before noon, and in the afternoons I still suffer because I'm not getting enough sleep. When I do get home, I try to do everything I need/want to in less time than I used to have, and often end up biting into my sleep schedule further. Realizing that this isn't sustainable, I've largely stopped doing anything that isn't "on fire" at work, and have adopted a "drop everything and leave" attitude at 6 PM. Since I don't need a full hour for lunch, but can't leave before 5, I've just started catching a bit of sleep in the middle of the day. If I happen to end up sleeping for an hour and a half instead of half an hour...well, that's just too bad. It just so happens that I can sit with my back to the door and look like I'm working to anyone who walks in -- and the hinges make enough noise to wake me up, so there's really no risk to me.
End result? Well, Office Space has never seemed to relate quite so much to my life as it does now. I'm planning on leaving this area, so I'm holding on to this job to keep things stable until I've found another and decided where I'll be moving to. I feel kind of guilty about being as slack as I am, but given the utter disrespect shown to me, I obviously think it is justified. Besides, I still spend 50 hours a week at work, so I view this as payment for wasting my time and pinning me into a stuffy office.
I really hope to find something better soon, but the wage slave attitude seems to be the norm here. Perhaps it is time to consider crossing the pond.
Re:Yeah, right. M$ will respect you. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Re:Finally, I'm not jealous! (Score:2, Insightful)
there are constant arguments claiming "it's different this time... this is not your job/life/company, this one is a once in a lifetime..." and so on.
still, they end up the same: either you learn the lesson early enough and improve both your life and your job, or you learn too late and you waste both of them away...
if you haven't learned this yet, re-read the above post (and others like it) and think hard.... z
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:4, Insightful)
I haven't made the mistake because it is true.
The definition I am using is: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. This is from dictionary.com . The closest definition I can find to the way you are using the word is: a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person . Even if we use the more generous second meaning; it simply does not apply, because one can simply be undominated by work by simply not showing up or doing it.
When the alternative is starving in the gutter, that's close enough to coercion for most people.
Let me ask you this: Imagine we are 8000 years in the past. An prehistoric farmer is carving out a meek farming existence. He carefully tills the soil with hand tools and scratches out a basic existence on what little he can cull from the soil. Is he then a slave to his farm? Is he a slave to the fact that he is an animal, and must, from time to time, feed his belly? What is coercing him to farm?
The answer is, he is not coerced. There is no force. He is free to starve. Just because men must provide for their own survival does not enslave them. If that were the case, using that definition, under no circumstances could a man *not* be a slave. And in which case, all men are slaves and then there's no such thing as slavery.
Re:Laughable "Google is like my mommy" arguments (Score:4, Insightful)
I am a family man. The idea of eating 3 meals per day at work doesn't fit at all. Dentistry at work? Interesting, but I'd prefer a traditional plan, because I personally am only 1/6 (less, actually) of the dental needs that I am responsible for. Am I making sense? It seems like the benefits are all based on the employee/company relationship, but most of those needs are already met by my other relationships, and maintaining those is a higher priority for me. Instead of a gourmet meal for myself at work, I'd rather have the cash towards some hamburgers I can eat at home with my family.
Re:Who died and made you boss? (Score:2, Insightful)
And btw, your kids are NO better off for it. All you've done is deprive them of time with you in order to give them some extra stuff.
Please, I URGE you to "worry about" your kids. Your time with them is MUCH more important than material gains.
You're not giving them the best you can give, you're giving your EMPLOYER the best you can give, at the expense of your kids.
Wake up and check your priorities.
BTW, I have a wife and four kids, so I do know what I'm talking about.
Re:Why negative responses? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:3, Insightful)
Because of the way health care is structured, you are free to not work-- and die or go bankrupt. You can no longer own property-- taxes are set so high that you have to work in order to pay rent to the government for "your" property. If they were set on sales tax or income tax- you could pass on working but not property taxes.
Make no mistake- we are in one of the most devious forms of slavery ever devised.
Corporations and the wealthy have done a wonderful job of turning up the heat so slowly that we frogs never had the sense to jump out.
Re:Tech stops (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, it's cool that there's someone there to answer dumb-user questions, but I would hope that my company would hire programmers that realize that the that network cable goes into the NIC. Besides that, the person working the counter is likely a step up from a BestBuy salesman, able to see a problem, but not good enough to get a job as a dedicated sysadmin.
The available supply of equipment is a nice idea, except that there's inevitably someone (like myself) that would snap up the new and neat stuff that came in and drop off my crusty old gear. The end result there would be a stock of old crap that some manager can't justify replacing.
I would think that the best idea from that section of TFA is "a more flexible model for employees to define their OWN equipment needs". I'd rather accomplish that with a corporate card that let me order my own stuff using my own limits (as designated by my position or manager). And if the under-an-hour feature is of real value, let me use my account at the local computer store without approvals.
Yes, it was a neat idea, but not for a company that touts its staff of geeks.
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:2, Insightful)
1. I work, because I need to eat. Without eating I die.
or
2. I work, because if I do not work, I am killed.
This sounds like Hobson's choice to me.
I believe in the edict that the only thing a free man can be forced to do is die. This draws no distinction between the methods of death, and by it, all men are equally (un)free.
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing that really, really bothered me about the interview process was that if they are hiring for a "senior level" position (in my case they were), basing their hiring decision on whether you know which bit is flipped on or off in a TCP header is more likely to favor the recent college graduate who happened to memorize his textbook and has no real world experience, than the experienced career veteran that has probably forgotten more than the college grad ever knew. That's most likely why the workforce is "just like college" and "work experience doesn't matter." Like I said, Google has a lot of bright people, but they lack a lot of real world experience. Maybe that's a good thing (look at problems from a new perspective), but there's something to be said for experience.
Private offices for devs at M$? Now I understand.. (Score:3, Insightful)
With team members probably not communicating with anything else than e-mail, no wonder why they can't make a single product without crashing all the others.
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is bad for a number of reasons. One of the major ones is that it doesn't just affect them. Their bosses start to look at everyone else who *doesn't* behave that way and try to push them to work 24/7 as well.
Personally, I think we should all spend some more time at the lake, relaxing and, while we're there, we should toss the blackberry out as far as we can.
Re:isn't this normal? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, and that's the problem. It degrades from there. One guy starts doing just a little extra to get noticed around the office. And indeed, others notice, like his coworkers, some of whom start doing a bit more too, so they don't look like slackers, or to show the guy up, or because they want to be the one getting the promotion. Pretty soon most everyone is doing it, and before too long -- and this is key -- management starts expecting it, and anyone who leaves work at work is derided as someone who doesn't care about his job.
Re:Who died and made you boss? (Score:4, Insightful)
Not if he dies before you get to know him.
Not being dramatic, just pointing out the flaw in the argument.
Re:The most important difference (Score:3, Insightful)
Make your slogan, "Do no evil", and not only to you proclaim your own self-righteousness, but you imply that all of your competitors ARE evil. Wow, soo clever. Must've taken 50 of Google's 1000 PhDs to come up with that one.
Show me someone that constantly says, "I'm not a racist", and I'll show you a racist.
Show me someone that constantly says, "I'm not evil",