MS Moves R&D To Canada Due To Immigration Problem 765
telso writes "Microsoft will be opening a new software development center in Vancouver because of difficulties getting workers into the US. The company said the center will 'allow the company to continue to recruit and retain highly skilled people affected by the immigration issues in the US' It seems possible that shrinking immigration quotas have affected America's tax and knowledge base."
Re:I call BS (Score:3, Interesting)
FUD (Score:3, Interesting)
immigration. Microsoft continues to attack programmers
in the U.S. by attempting to drive down salaries via
the H1B scam.
If it was truly a problem for Microsoft, they would
not be opening new centers in Bellevue and Boston, would they?
Outsourcing works (Score:2, Interesting)
Retaining engineers is easy (Score:3, Interesting)
the solution.. (Score:1, Interesting)
Take a hint from the mexican orange-pickers!
Re:Outsourcing works (Score:2, Interesting)
It's like a pyramid scheme -- it only works if only a comparatively few people do it.
Re:Retaining engineers is easy (Score:3, Interesting)
So would my paycheck decrease if I added a negative number of codes because I re-factored things? I think it was at apple that someone did just that, they had a form for how many lines were added and one day he put down a negative number which apparently caused the whole method to be abandoned shortly afterwards.
Re:Where? (Score:4, Interesting)
Exactly. I have two friends that have had incidents relating to American laws to protect american workers.
One WAS working in the 'states, but his visa ran out. The company was unable to renew his work visa because he hadn't completed his CSC degree. He HAD been working for this company for 3 years and getting anyone else up to speed would take a LONG time as he was lead developer for a large system. The argument given was that there are americans that are better qualified for the role, i.e. people with degrees who are American citizens that would love the job (which is questionable as the pay wasn't amazing). He did have >10 years programming experience, but that obviously isn't equivalent to someone with a "degree".
The other friend was an artist for gaming companies (he worked at Canadian rockstar for a while and more recently has been art lead at other companies in Canada). He was told straight out by american interviewers, "Great portfolio, wish we could hire you, but you have no degree and we have to hire an American that is "better" qualified."
Re:Mod parent up Plz (Score:5, Interesting)
A developer earning 50-60k up here is considered middle-upper class. He can afford a house on his own, along with all the latest tech toys. Try that in Redmond... yeah right!
Then throw in the pervasive anti-American sentiment that continues to grow all around the world, and well, we Canadians don't look so bad anymore. We're far from perfect, we still have dirty dirty politicians and high tax rates, but to many people we're seen as a much lesser evil than our southern neighbors. I'm going to get flamed for this, but you guys need to start working to clear your name. Maybe a decade ago, the USA was a land of riches, I even contemplated relocating for a development job... then Dubya showed up and changed everything around. Not since Truman has there been a worse hated US president around the world. People are afraid of the USA. We see how badly their own citizens are treated, I can't even imagine how bad it is for immigrants.
Re:I call BS (Score:5, Interesting)
Problem with "Plenty of programmers here" argument (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, having said that, I work on a team that's only about 20-30% US-born citizens. The rest are a mix of Russian, Romanian, Chinese, Indian, and Mexican. But they're not your stereotypical wage slaves hired to save costs. They're bright, intelligent contributors. And my girlfriend, an Australian citizen in a different group, gets paid as much as I do and got even more out of her relocation benefits (apparently shipping across the Pacific isn't cheap).
So, why then does MS hire foreigners. Because (arguably, at least) MS isn't interested in the top 4X% of American developers, they're interested in the top X% of all developers. Since that subset isn't entirely American, they're very interested in immigration issues. Not to drive down wages, but to drive up hiree quality.
You can argue all the live-long day that Americans are the best in the industry (correct or not), but you can't reasonably state that *all* American developers are better than *all* non-American developers.
Lack of Talent Indeed (Score:5, Interesting)
Where I work, I am often tasked with interviewing senior level software developers and team lead candidates. Occasionally, an architect level position, also, but that is rare as our company has not a software architect, per se.
Over the last 6 months I have interviewed approximately 15 candidates, and I was probly seeing about 1 candidate for about ever 150 resumes submitted. Some of these people had 5 years experience, some had as much as 18 years. We're a
I'm willing to grant that they are nervous, may not know everything, whatever. But overwhelmingingly, the fact is, these people say that can do x and y and in reality, after the stated 15 years experience, can even demonstrate the minimum competency required for the position. We are not rediculous expectations by any standard. But if you've been doing remoting for 7 years in
The typical response is: I just google it. That's fine, but someone who never wrote a line of code before can Google it, too. We need to know you can actually perform well in the duties you'll be assigned. Some people get up and walk out of the interviews stating they are too difficult. We finally hired a couple of these guys and they performed very lousy.
The bottom line is that, it is indeed difficult to find someone qualified for certain tasks. If we hire for a bit of a lower-level position such as typical ASP.NET stuff and maybe some middle-tier business rules tasks, its a bit easir to find people but it is still difficult to find someone that when hired, can perform very well until about 6 months into the task after which, they leave and go to another company making more money and more responsibilities (and we pay relative to the 50th-70th percentile of the local norm) and have a disreable culture.
In any case, just incase it was because I was doing the interviewing and they were nervous... I have recently interviewed for a software architect level position for a fortune 100 company requiring the ability to chug roughly 400 million transactions daily with an extreme degree of reliability, and I did fine in the interviews. I was able to answer and demonstrate all but 2 of the questions or tasks asked of me and received a job offer. I have only 10 years experience and no college degree (yet). I don't know whether I'm special, but I think my observation remains: finding someone qualified is difficult enough, but getting the company to offer what they are worth (rather, what they think they are worth) is even more difficult. Most places I've worked hasn't a problem rewarding people that prove themselves or that dazzle during interviews. But if you just barely get by in interview or just get hired because they are taking a chance while not sure of you, and ask for $100k, you're probly not going to get it.
On that note, I've hired people before that I wasn't too sure of but they showed potential, they wanted a rediculous amount of money and we offered what we thought t
Re:1/2 of a corporations duties (Score:5, Interesting)
You have one "american" employee leading an "american" company with 100,000 employees from every other country on earth.
The products which cost pennies to produce- are nonetheless priced at "full retail" in the american market while being sold for much lower prices profitably in other countries. And of course those products are either gimmicked ("indonesian only" $25 windows) or have laws making it illegal to reimport them to the US (My blood pressure pills-- 10 cents in india, $5 here-- illegal to import and sell for 50 cents).
The one "american" only pays taxes on realized profits and income. The rest is funny money stored in various ways. Net result to American- nothing really. Net result to the company- enormous.
Should I buy that companies products? Not if I can help it.
Absolutely right. (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a senior engineer for a large, very well known software company (not MS). One of my duties is interviewing engineers. Lots of engineers. I see five or six candidates a week, in addition to phone interviews. Once we've found somebody -- anybody -- who meets our hiring requirements, we'll do whatever it takes to get them here. Living across the country? We'll relocate your household and find your spouse a job. Living in Canada? We'll get you a visa. Compensation is same in both cases, and due to the costs of acquiring the visa, H1-B workers actually cost the company a lot more. As a result, we prefer Americans, but as I said, we'll take anyone we can get.
We've got development centers in the UK, Africa, India, China, and several places in the US. These all cost us far more per person -- in facilities costs, training, legal costs -- than the US dev centers. We do this to try to attract people who don't want to relocate.
Those of you who think Microsoft is just trying to avoid paying you the billions you so obviously think you're worth, should go apply to the Redmond campus. If you're as good as you think you are, they'll fly you in for interviews. And if you pass those, then they'll talk about compensation. At that point, you can't really lose the offer, barring stupidity. The poster who said they'd use a difference in expected salary to disqualify a candidate in order to get an immigrant worker instead is, to give them the benefit of the doubt, blatantly mistaken.
Look, just do me a favor: If you think you're hot shit and want a six-figure job, make yourself a list of the top ten tech companies in the US. Then go to each of their job sites and submit your resume. My recruiters are waiting. Unless, like most of the posters here, you think that's "slaving away for minimum wage."
This is an issue with the border enforcement (Score:2, Interesting)
Vancouver City is a small city, but the metropolitan area extends right to the US border. Microsoft isn't that far away on the other side. Until 2001 these people were able to pass through express lanes at the border with little hassle. Since new laws have come into play our trade agreements have come to mean less and the border has slowly closed. These days you do not hear of people working in the Vancouver-Seattle region as much as you hear stories about lovers on either side of the border being rejected for too many "suspicious" crossings. This is just sad, the two cities are separated only by suburbs and a small trench the width of your back alley.
Immigration policy has gone awry in the US but I think the border issue has been simmering on the back burner for much longer. I hope people start addressing both issues or both of our economies will be in the toilet soon.
Re:Lack of Talent Indeed (Score:1, Interesting)
We've experimented with lots of interviewing styles, from six back-to-back 45 minute whiteboard sessions to one-day computer-based projects, but the pass rate is consistently low. Most of our candidates just don't have the skills we need. It's worse in India. The amount of time I spend on the phone to candidates there trying to walk them through basic problems is astounding. So don't buy the idea that Indian programmers walk on water -- some do, just like some Americans, Canadians, British, whatever. But wherever they live, those guys are less than one in thirty. And we're absolutely desperate for them.
Please, if you think you're hot stuff, send out your resume. Or just post it on the major job boards. My recruiters will see it.
(And if you think we can't find people because of compensation issues or overwork, let me assure you that isn't the case. We're pretty pampered and I enjoy it
Train your custom officers, MS would stay in USA. (Score:5, Interesting)
It must be an utter nightmare for MS to bring in the smartest developers available around the world, enriching the intellectual capacity of the USA, helping an American company grow wealth for their American shareholders.
In an unrelated field, my wife, who is a Canadian with two science related bachelor's degrees and a professional registration has been blocked twice from entering the USA on temporary work visas by ignorant american customs officers.
And she was going to perform work needed by American companies that were not able to find qualified American professionals. High end specialized scientific work
The first time, the company she was going to consult for made a small mistake on their reference letter. She had to wait for several hours
The second instance
This fuckwad didn't have even the most basic understanding of the situation
Her client nearly lost her services, which would have delayed their project, which would have meant laying off American citizens from their jobs, and would have delayed or pre-empted millions of dollars of economic activity in a remote area of the USA where the jobs are desparately needed.
But many hours later, after missing her connecting flight, she did get through
There was another incident
Re:Problem with "Plenty of programmers here" argum (Score:5, Interesting)
Also don't forgot that first world citizens from countries such as England, Germany and Japan need visas too. A lot of Americans on this forum are dumbing this issue down into a "slave labour" issue but I call BS on that.
There are many extremely bright people across the world and not letting them into America to train Americans just makes your country even dumber.
Good luck with that.
Re:1/2 of a corporations duties (Score:4, Interesting)
For a nice story about taxes paid by American corporations, click here [itjungle.com].
Re:NAFTA is not all it's cracked up to be (Score:3, Interesting)
And the end result of that... (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes thats an extreme example but thats where this outsourcing approach ultimately leads. People are NOT just "resources" that can be picked up and dropped at will. They're all part of the feedback mechanism that keep the economy going - no job , no money. No money , no spending. No spending , no economy. Its time business started to appreciate that.
Re:1/2 of a corporations duties (Score:1, Interesting)
Ha Ha Ha Hah Heh Heh Ho Ho... You're so funny. Have you actually, ever seen lower prices because of exporting labor? Oh, and before you try... You must match the quality that you could get before the big glut of exporting... Have you seen the wafer thin shirts at the Gap these days? Won't last one spin in the dryer.
It provides a lucrative job for the immigrant.
So you're standing in line to open the borders with Mexico? That would help an immigrant. Why do I need to give up my job to help an immigrant? Is their country of origin sending the US cash to make up the differences? Are they funding social security? Setting up a downsizing fund for all the displaced people?
The increase in profits means an increase in taxes paid, a definite public good.
Yep, increases in tax revenue for Canadians for people paying sales taxes here. That certainly helps our community.
-- God I hope you people never ever use any public services... But at the same time, I hope you get sick just as your job gets outsourced real soon now. Or better yet, I hope you get married and have children, so you can realize that it takes more than your personal might to live in this world.
Re:Train your custom officers, MS would stay in US (Score:3, Interesting)
I have been hosed getting into Canada from the US before.
One instance you stated there was a mistake on her forms. They still let her in, after oh no, SHE had to get proof and a CORRECT copy?
Oh my, those horrible bastards wanting her to have legal forms filled out correctly.
As for my last screw up to getting into Canada?
I showed up for planning meetings to decide whether or not and if we were, how to implement a shop floor system for a manufacturing facility outside of Ottawa.
I had my laptop with me, because, well that's what people do when they travel.
The customs official insisted on speaking French to me. (I went in the bilingual line because it was shorter) My piss poor high school French got enough by to ask him to speak English, and when he said no, I asked if I could get a different agent or go to the other line. He said no. Escorted me to a security room.
Where I was told to wait. I took out my phone to let my call some people, (wife to let her know I had landed, coworkers to let em know I might not make it into the plant today, etc)
IMMEDIATELY someone came in and told me I was NOT allowed to use my cell phone from this area. They informed me if I tried again, they would confiscate it.
1.5 hours later, someone came back in and told me I was not going to be allowed into Canada since I was coming to steal all jobs from all Canadians. (It was in French, so I am sure it was more like doing a job a Canadian should do, but I suck at French) I asked again if they could speak in English, since my French was very poor.
They left, came back in 30 minutes with a "translator"
The two first officers spoke only in French, the translator translated for me. I responded in English, then the two officers went right on in French. The "translator" never translated what I said. Finally after ~6 hours I was able to purchase a short term work visa, and get out of there. Unfortunately by then the rental car counters had closed. So I called a coworker to come pick me up.
Another time, flying up to Toronto, I got denied entry completely. (I was going up to discuss data and hardware security for once we announced a plant closing) I got a connecting flight to Buffalo, rented a car, and drove up to go to the meetings. (Shh, don't tell the authorities)
By the same token, I have traveled up there probably 25 other times and not had any problems. Never had a problem in Hungary, UK, Brazil, China, Mexico or Japan either.
Not trying to start anything, just pointing out that customs officials can be horrible anywhere. (Also that customs officials competence probably has about zero to do with this move. It's just giving R&D people another option for where they can live)