Programs Cannot Be Uninstalled In Vista? 469
Corson writes "I am surprised that nobody seems to have mentioned this here yet. Possibly after one of the latest updates in Windows Vista, two strange things happened: first, the Uninstall option is no longer available in the Control Panel when you right-click on older programs (most likely, those installed prior to the update in question, because uninstall works fine for recently installed programs — the Uninstall button is also missing on the toolbar at the top); second, some programs are no longer shown on the applications list in Control Panel (e.g., Yahoo Messenger). A Google search returns quite a few hits on this issue (e.g., one, two, three, and four) but everybody seems to be waiting patiently for a sign from Microsoft. But the company seems to have no clue or they would have fixed it already. I am just curious how many of you are experiencing this nuisance."
Re:Bullshit (Score:2, Insightful)
Bashing? (Score:3, Insightful)
When I was younger my best tactic for fixing a computer issue was to format. As I got older I realized that solution is impractical. Just like switching to another OS is impractical for most of us.
Re:Bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, just because you're not having problems, that obviously means that nobody else with a different hardware configuration, different software installed, or a different version of Vista could possibly be having issues with it. That would just be silly.
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:why is this on slashdot? (Score:5, Insightful)
FUD Article (Score:5, Insightful)
Translation: a grand total of 5 users say they are experiencing this problem, probably including the author of this story.
After reading the posts linked in the article it seems the problem might be related to Yahoo toolbar crapware being installed on the PCs. You can use use system restore to fix the problem. Stop clicking "accept" when UAC warns you not to install crapware. Stop posting Vista FUD stories to Slashdot. Thank you.
Re:Bullshit (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Bashing? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, i guess that's why products like this [symantec.com] aren't popular at all with Windows users. Half of our office computers at work had Windows reinstalled atleast once, from scratch. This is all too common with Windows systems, in my experience.
I know that
This warrants a topic? (Score:1, Insightful)
If I go find a small amount of people on the Apple help forums, or maybe over on the official Ubuntu forums, that are having difficulties from a software update, can I have my own Slashdot story too? Oh pretty please!!!
Re:WHO CARES (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case, the very first post saying 'mine is OK' is modded as Redundant.
Re:This is why you turn off updates.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Absolutely... just as you would with any other vendor patch to a production system.
That's not an end user's job. That's the IT staff's job. End users shouldn't be applying patches. Period. End of story. That's what the IT staff is there for.
Those sysads should be retrained or fired.
If you allow things like that to happen automatically, you're going to have to deal with the consequences.
Find another vendor then. No one forces Microsoft's products on you.
Would your "vetting" process have spotted this? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can see how a "vetting process" would spot major problems with a patch but would you honestly have spotted "uninstall button missing for some applications"?
To me it seems like the sort of thing people only notice weeks or months after an update.
Re:I'm not experiencing this at all... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:No worse than OS X (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Install cool app
3. Use cool app... it works, cool
4. Guess I don't need that installer anymore
5. Ya know, I don't need this, how do I uninstall it?
Yeah, it's obvious from the OS that I should go re-download the original installer and hope that it has an uninstaller.
Pushing the problem to the developer is essentially pushing it to the end user, because the end user has to manage this stuff, and Apple doesn't even trust its users to organize their own Music folders, etc. They've got these amazing frameworks for implementing common parts of most programs, but not tracking which program does what?
I hope it's just because they're trying for a revolutionary way of tracking these dependencies, or its because of patent licensing or something... and not that they don't think it's necessary
Re:This is why you turn off updates.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to criticize, but when was the last time Microsoft successfully responded to a 0-day within 24, 48, or 72 hours?
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe the big image problem MicroSoft is having as far as bugs and quality control is a matter of people expecting more from computers as they get ever more integrated in our lives. If 5% of a new model of HD-DVD player wouldn't eject the DVD, there would be a recall. When PCs were novelties it was OK for them to be "quirky". That time has passed. MicroSoft, and much of the software world in general, need to step up and produce goods with real craftsmanship, not patched together. Yes I know modern software is all terribly complex, but if it's too hard to do well, go into a different line of work.
Re:This is only a minority problem... (Score:5, Insightful)
It is stupid application problem.
If the application screws up the uninstall - something that hasn't really changed since 1995 - then the publisher should be the one blamed and complained to.
Microsoft built a framework. If the application doesn't follow it and requires you to "reinstall to uninstall" or some such nonsense it is hardly a Microsoft problem.
Re:No worse than OS X (Score:3, Insightful)
It's your fault for getting rid of the installer if that is the way the developer specifies for an uninstall. Your step 4 is a breakdown in the application cycle at the user level. What if you ever had to reinstall that app, you would download it again? What if that specific version didn't exist anymore? Or the entire app was pulled?
I guess Chutulu is playing Cthulu's advocate... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is why you turn off updates.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is why you turn off updates.... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll grant you that your scenario would be preferable for everything but short-notice attacks...and even for those if a good firewall could keep them out. It would also be more expensive most of the time. Managers notice things like that. Most are willing to tolerate "emergency action", but many of those won't tolerate normal "wasted time", even if the "wasted time" would prevent the need for "emergency action". For one thing, because the need for emergency action was prevented, it never became necessary, and thus, to the manager, was unreal.
And it's also true that sometimes applying the patch QUICKLY is important. When Debian found that someone had gotten improper access to their repositories they shut-down updating INSTANTLY. Later they examined machine by machine to see which were good, and which had to be recovered from backup. It took a week for them to get fully back to normal. Security patches were among the first repositories back on line. Sometimes quick action is necessary. AFAIK they never found that any of their repositories had actually been corrupted, but they did "the right thing". And that involved two fast actions.
1) Take down anything that might have become corrupt
2) Get the security updates back up as quickly as is safe
Usually a security update doesn't have strong urgency, merely strong importance. Sometimes it also has strong urgency. With MS updates, you only know what they're telling you, and they're only telling you what will benefit them. So you never know which updates are important, which are urgent, and which are both. And from whose point of view.
Re:Bullshit (Score:3, Insightful)
I had to install and uninstall software on at least 10 vista computers (different characteristics, different vendors, including Sony, Toshiba, Dell and Shuttle from Core Duos to Xeon Quads from 512MB to 8G RAM). Not a single one had a problem.
what are you smoking? (Score:3, Insightful)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You do realize you are talking about a monolithic block of code for an OS from a gigantic software company and not a small, open source app, right? Things don't just change on the fly, especially not small inconveniences such as this. They've probably known about it for months and just haven't taken the time to fix it, since there are many other pressing issues out there.
Re:Bullshit (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is why you turn off updates.... (Score:3, Insightful)
And there are two reasons for that:
1) First, companies won't pay for proactive support and organization of their systems so they fail less. They pay for "damage control" only.
2) The IT industry produces stuff that is incredibly easy to break due to poor engineering.
Although, as to the latter, I'd say if we produced bridges that were intended to accept connections from any other device on the planet (like cameras, printers, modems, phones, blah blah), and do five million different things other than stand there and carry traffic, we'd probably have bridge collapses every day.
Humans simply aren't good at producing complex devices with multiple purposes. They can produce simple devices with multiple purposes - like a knife - and they can produce a complex device with ONE purpose - like a car (and look at how often cars break) - but they cannot produce a complex device with multiple purposes.
They could if they'd realize their limitations (the Dirty Harry Principle) and start applying computer-aided design technology to engineering computer systems themselves.
But admitting their limitations is something else humans aren't good at. That would make them "inferior" to the next guy over - and that isn't allowed by their primate brains.
Having said all that, Microsoft producing a patch that turns off program uninstallation is clearly one of the dumber things they've done lately - even if it only affects 5% of systems. What next? 5% of systems simply go BSOD on the next patch?
Whoever said that if 5% of any other device failed it would be recalled is correct. Vista was rushed out the door to meet a corporate contract deadline - after it was late by, what, three years? - and clearly it shows.
Re:This is why you turn off updates.... (Score:3, Insightful)
You would not accept a problem like that with a shrug if it were in your car, or even your television set. Why do we accept computers as inherently faulty? My guess is that a big share of the blame for that goes to Redmond.
In beta software, in Free Software or in a student's freeware project, failures like that would be acceptable. In a commercial software that is being sold for several hundred bucks, they should not be. None of us would buy a car with several thousand known bugs, some of which just might affect the lights or brakes. Few of us would buy a TV that simply breaks down every now and then. None of us would accept "but it's a complicated technology and there are so many parts" as an excuse for a plane crash.
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with software is the license crap. The part that makes it impossible to return it as defect, even if it contains thousands of critical bugs. We need more consumer protection there. Just like any other items, if it has more than a low number of non-critical problems, one should be able to return any software for a full refund.
Pass that as a law, include that no license, EULA or any other agreement can void that right, and within record time, software quality would go up.
Re:This is why you turn off updates.... (Score:4, Insightful)
The world isn't always as black and white as we might like it to be.
Funny.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is why you turn off updates.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Whoever said that if 5% of any other device failed it would be recalled is correct. Vista was rushed out the door to meet a corporate contract deadline - after it was late by, what, three years? - and clearly it shows.
Re:This is why you turn off updates.... (Score:3, Insightful)
With software, it's like you've bought a toaster that works fine unless you're trying to toast just a single slice of Franz honey wheat berry bread. Two slices works fine, Orowheat honey wheat berry works fine, Franz whole wheat works fine, etc. Nobody has this kind of problem with toasters. That's the difference.