US GPS, EU Galileo to Work Together

saintory writes "The US and EU are in talks to allow their separate GPS systems to work together. The future uses would allow enhanced location information based on two readings, among other benefits. 'The market probably will drive dual-use receivers. We think probably that single (U.S.) GPS-specific, or Galileo-specific receivers — the market will phase out in time [...] It just doesn't make sense to limit yourself to just one system'."

How very...

[Xeth]

...refreshing. Seriously, I've gotten rather sick of the acrimony that seems to be building across the Atlantic. It's nice that people see this as a chance for better technology (at least in some respect) rather than pure nationalistic chest-thumping.

Re:I don't know about Galileo, but GPS needs help

[gsfprez]

poor recievers and position on your part does not constitute a problem with GPS on the operator's part.

and besides - how does adding additional signals to your already shitty location change anything? If you've got bad multipath problems or narrow FOV problems, more satellites isn't going to change anything.

One system

[eebra82]

"..It just doesn't make sense to limit yourself to just one system.."

No, what we need is like 500 different systems. Just like in the world of memory cards.

Don't ask me

[benhocking]

I'm just reporting what's been in the news. I definitely wasn't say it was a good idea - I was just trying to clarify the context around it.

OTOH, playing devil's advocate, a missile shield would (theoretically) stop missiles coming from a terrorist group were they to acquire one. It would presumably not be meant to stand alone but rather be part of an entire well thought out system (stop giggling). You could scan for dirty bombs at the border, have great devices for detecting pathogens, make your airline passengers fly naked, but none of that will stop a missile coming towards your country any more than a missile shield would prevent the discreet release of poisons into the drinking water.

The truth is all in the numbers

[adsl]

It's amazing how this Galileo topic ALWAYS ends up in people slagging off against America. OK moving on: The American GPS system is a fantastic FREE product (free to uses, not free to US citizens who pay through their Federal Taxes). The rest of the world has used the system for years and benefited. Then a European venture (made up of several disparate partners) decided there was a business opportunity to launch a rival system and pay for it by offering PAY services to users, in return for increased accuracy. Unfortunately while the tests went OK the European partners did not step up to formally fund the venture. Possibly fearing the financial numbers didn't work. This alliance of the existing US service and a likely "rightsized" Galileo, probably makes huge sense. The new Galileo Satellites can be launched, in far less numbers, while accuracy can be improved by combining the signals from both systems. In other words, everybody wins here. So enough of the bickering posts please and let's congratulate the new American/European alliance and improved future GPS products.

It's a military decision...

[Etherwalk]

Think about it. It's better to have both than one in case a GPS scrambler won't knock out the Galileo signal (once it exists.) It's probably worth spending a few thousand dollars more per tank for that kind of redundancy--accurate positioning information has made a huge difference in how well modern armies fight. Ipsa scientia potest est--Knowledge itself is power.

Re:I love posts like yours, being small must suck

[megaditto]

I think one must be at least 13 to post on Slashdot.

Military use

[Laxator2]

The GPS system is capable of being re-programmed such that it will give the wrong coordinates to all but the US military. If GALILEO stays independent and keeps giving the correct coordinates a significant advantage is lost. I don't think the US military will accept that, so the getting the systems to work together may very well mean they will give the same wrong coordinates should the US military want that. I don't see the Europeans oposing such a demand.

Re:How does this qualify as news?

[2Y9D57]

This reply is so ill-informed, it's incredible. (That's it's, not its - illiterate as well.)

1. GIOVE-A, the first Galileo test satellite, was launched on 28 December 2005 from Baikonur Cosmodrome. It transmitted its (not it's) first navigation signal on 12 January 2006 and began transmitting complete navigation messages (i.e. with ephemeris and clock performance data) on 2nd May this year. No Frigidaire (just a commercially available satellite bus), no amateur radio (although SSTL, who built GIOVE-A, got their start building amateur radio satellites at the University of Surrey), two rubidium frequency standards (but no metronome), no baling wire (or bailing wire, either) and definitely no Weird Al.

2. Nobody has hacked any Galileo encryption. They have deduced the previously unspecified content of the signals transmitted by GIOVE-A and made out like they had discovered some big secret. The Cornell GPS lab deduced the PRN codes used by GIOVE-A - which were not secret, just not widely distributed. When the time comes, the two Galileo Public Regulated Service navigation signals will have their ranging codes and data encrypted - and no teenagers will be able to hack them - just like nobody has ever hacked the P(Y)-codes on GPS. In any case, the encryption keys will be replaceable in-service.

3. The agreement doesn't call for the US to rely on Europe. It calls for the systems to be interoperable so that, when they are both functioning, user can get quicker and more accurate fixes by having more satellites visible. Galileo will offer better performance at higher latitudes - won't someone think of the Alaskans?

Europe didn't kill Concorde. British Airways and Air France killed Concorde because it became unprofitable after a modification programme made necessary mainly by an accident caused by a piece of metal that fell off of an American airliner.

Airbus may yet get to eat Boeing's lunch - let's wait for the outcome of the Dreamliner/AB380 death match.

Your only (partially) valid criticism: it turned out that the industrial consortium that was supposed to build Galileo couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, let alone take responsibility for a major space infrastructure project. Most likely, the European Space Agency will act as procurement agent for the system, which will then be operated by someone sensible, like Inmarsat.

Who's the tosser now?

Re:I thought the whole point....

[argStyopa]

"And I thought the whole point in Galileo was to be independent of USA's mercy. The US can turn off GPS at any time they want. The EU don't want to be dependent on the USA and so they build their own system."
"They are way too old, the GPS satellites (at least, most of them)."

Well, which is better: older working models or wonderful new technology that doesn't really exist yet?

EU Galileo Satellites in orbit: 1 of 30 (see also: Vaporware)

US GPS System: 30 known broadcasting satellites. (Some sources suggest that there are other 'dark' GPS satellites that are already orbiting 'in reserve' to backup the system as a failsafe in case of disaster or hostile action.)

I think the Galileo system sounds wonderful, but then again, so do flying cars. I'm not holding my breath waiting for either one.

Re:How very...

[Anonymous Coward]

but most American's don't hold this attitude

Oh. Pity you don't live in a democracy or anything so you could change it.

power

[agurkan]

Actually it makes a lot of sense to limit yourself to a single system when you realize reading more channels with multiple protocols require a lot more power. It even makes sense to limit yourself to 12 channels rather than 20 available, if you are really concerned about power. There are GPS devices out there that use previous generation chipsets because of power constraints.

If they could somehow make the two systems act as one, and you could read a channel from one system with no extra power cost, then I agree that getting a fix from best available satellites and mixing-an-matching during the process is superior to limiting yourself to one system.