New Linux Desktop Environment Built on Firefox 198
IL-CSIXTY4 writes "'Pyro is a new kind of desktop environment for Linux built on Mozilla Firefox. Its goal is to enable true integration between the Web and modern desktop computing.'
This looks like an interesting marriage of the web and the desktop. In Pyro, Web apps run in windows on the desktop, right alongside desktop apps (through compositing). Features expected in a desktop environment, like task/window selection and an Expose-like function, are written in Javascript." "
Does this mean... (Score:1, Redundant)
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Re:Does this mean... (Score:4, Insightful)
So what is it that makes this any different?
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It's entirely possible that the wm could run as the user "joeturd" and not root, as in windows. Still, yeah it's another example of sexy technology winning over common sense and security. Most people really don't care because they do not understand the implications of a cracked box. I've tried explaining "keylogger" to people before and they just look at me like I was talking to them in Estonian. They do not, and don't want to, "get-it"
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> So what is it that makes this any different? It's entirely possible that the wm could run as the user "joeturd" and not root, as in windows. Still, yeah it's another example of sexy technology winning over common sense and security. Most people really don't care because they do not understand the implications of a cracked box. I've tried explaining "keylogger" to people before and they just look at me like I was talking to them in Estonian. They do not, and don't want to, "get-it"
There is a difference. KDE has had kioslaves for years, where the browser can open more than 20 different protocols, including http,ftp, webdav, ldap etc... When you look at it, the sound design of it wins you with all the advantages it can offer. Everything is a different library, and it takes a good exploit in one to compromise another, something which hasnt yet occurred iirc. Plus the benefits are easily observable, which include opening an mp3 over ssh in amarok, without the app even knowing that su
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So if my browser gets owned by someone and they're able to make it dance to their tune, what ramifications will having Pyro installed when it comes to consequences?
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oh great ... that's all we need, a bunch of pyro-mainiacs.
See, you've already melted their server ... didn't anyone teach you not to play with fire?
slashdotted after the first comment (Score:4, Funny)
Already slashdotted after the first comment, so ... this is what the future web-desktop will be like huh?
Re:slashdotted after the first comment (Score:5, Informative)
Not if the server is within the intranet. Here's the text from the site:
Flickr Add-on
Exposé-alike
Window Picker
Pyro is a new kind of desktop environment for Linux built on Mozilla Firefox. Its goal is to enable true integration between the Web and modern desktop computing.
By merging the Web with the desktop, Pyro offers the first big step toward a new future for the Web and the applications built for it.
In Pyro, Web content is no longer confined to the browser's window. Instead, trusted Web sites and extensions are given access to the full range of interactivity and control enjoyed by native applications today.
Imagine...
Rich Web pages running side-by-side with native applications
Single programming environment for the whole desktop
Desktop-wide mashups, killer Web integration
Novel desktop effects
Pyro enables a desktop that tracks the latest in Web technology, and helps mold the future of the integrated Web.
[edit]
NEWS
From Ars Technica
July, 20 2007:
Pyro project offers Firefox-based desktop environment on Ars Technica, by Ryan Paul.
Pyro delivers Web apps to the Linux desktop on DesktopLinux.com.
Check out the slides!
July, 18 2007:
Pyro Announced during GUADEC '07 Conference Keynote Speech.
[edit]
How does Pyro work?
Pyro works fundamentally by drawing your entire computer screen as a Web Page, all from within Firefox. Indeed, at the core Pyro is simply a window manager which renders Web content alongside existing native applications.
By leveraging the trusted Firefox Add-On system, all the capabilities of dynamic HTML, JavaScript, CSS, SVG, and Adobe Flash are available to enable incredible applications, extensions and themes.
Bringing all these Web technologies together with the newest generation of Linux display technology, called window compositing, allows Pyro to integrate native applications as an intrinsic part of the overall Web Desktop, seamlessly merging the two.
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What is the point? Why does it need a separate window manager? Why on earth does the summary mention compositing when it doesn't appear in the article?
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I'm not sure how much you know about a desktop/windows under X so I'll go from basics. When you render conten
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Ahh, whoops. Now I look like a bit of a tit. Sorry for being patronising I didn't realise that from your previous post.
Ok, so serious question. At the moment we have a way of building applications, as code talking to the various X APIs. HTML/css/javascript etc are a different way of building apps. You want to replace the entire desktop with the web style way of doing it - but isn't this just reinventing the wheel. I'm not trying to troll here, but I just don't see what'
well that's rich (Score:2)
lots of "rich" stuff there; sounds fattening. i see "incredible" "leveraging", too. the clincher, however, is "trusted". now we can rest easy.
bingo!
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Re:slashdotted after the first comment (Score:5, Funny)
I think that's how that goes right?
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IE4 Anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:IE4 Anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:IE4 Anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
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As for me, I'm slowly being converted into an Xfce user. If they can add a bit more built-in functionality than it already has (there are some options they left out that really do need to be configurable), they'll have a winner on their hands.
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Don't use Firefox for it... (Score:2)
But anyway, I think this kind of concept could be done well. Just two obstacles:
No web browser that's advanced enough to run AJAX apps is simple enough to be as secure and stable as we need. It's not that we couldn't write such a browser, it just hasn't been done.
HTML/CSS/JavaScript will always suck, performance-wise. We really should create a better standard GUI toolkit for the web, if we're intending to run applications on it.
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In fact, if you're willing to limit the IDE to a JavaScript-only IDE, and drop Perl and plugin support from irssi (or replace 'em with a JavaScript API), you could do it all with clientside scripts.
You are right about video editing software, and I don't think Flash is anywhere near ready to do that, even if it was a good idea. And t
If only... (Score:3, Interesting)
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When you are doing (database/data) analysis and reporting on spreadsheets you certainly don't want to use the Microsoft Works style answer to 'spreadsheeting'.
Not so fast! (Score:2)
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Because hardly anybody WANTs a simple speadsheet and word processor. Particular businesses with an intranet. People LIKE the fancy-schmancy stuff. Putting it on the intranet doesn't make a simple spreadsheet program any more attractive than if it was on your deskto
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Let me give you guys a hint: GOOGLE HAS ALREADY MADE AND LAUNCHED A WEB-BASED OFFICE SUITE. I'd be surprised if Google had absolutely no part in developing, and if they aren't yet then I'd be surprised if they still don't get involved now that it's gotten some press coverage.
Somehow familliar (Score:1)
Re:Somehow familliar (Score:4, Interesting)
First, all computers wait at the same speed, and presumably the point here is to accomplish something heavily dependent on the network. Even the best network (in my experience) winds up being the limiting factor.
Second, the applications are not likely to depend on the speed of the processor for much, in the user's experience. Now obviously, if we're using bloated software like Word to accomplish what notepad could do, we'll feel the hit. On the other hand, I'm consistently frustrated by the sloth of OO apps. So if FIrefox offers an equally slow solution that is better integrated, I say it's a winner.
Of course, I haven't RTFA, as it is FSD'ed.
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"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they're not"
Winnie The Pooh
Modern computers don't make everything "wait" for something to happen. They multitask. Even modern browsers (Opera, IE, Safari) multitask. Firefox doesn't.
For Firefox, loading of several files over the network is a
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Here's a clue [mozillazine.org]
This is not where we're going. With multi-core processors on the table.
I've read the article in your "clue". For me, this clue just shows the Firefox team is clueless, and that's why I've given up any hope on it.
Lazlo is just a failed open-source version of Flex-like framework. They open-sourced it since they couldn't sell it.
Microsoft
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You are, of course, aware that Adobe is open sourcing Flex, also?
Anyway, I like Flex.
Joe.
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Anyway, I like Flex.
Joe.
Yes and incidentally they're open sourcing it for the same reason. You see, they're feeling the heat from Microsoft
I like Flex too, but it didn't have the uptake Adobe/Macromedia hoped for, so from a 5-figure server edition for big enterprises (they sold l
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If things go to plan, Adobe and Mozilla will be both be using Tamarin to host the next major ECMAScript revision (Javascript 3).
I wonder what would've happened if Adobe didn't donate their engine.
I thought the article was clear, ECMAscript will not use threads to implement coroutines.
That's just the opinion of the Firefox tech airhead. Adobe won't exactly care what he things when it implements threading in Flash. Firefox could disable the feature if they're so s
Eich != airhead (Score:2)
Brendan Eich is not only the original inventor of JavaScript, he's one of the smartest guys I've ever met. Calling him an "airhead" is really pretty sad.
More to the point, he's correct: threads suck, in that mere mortal programmers have pretty much no chance of getting them right in the general case, and even superstars have problems with them. We need a better programming paradigm for taking advantage of multicore, but threads are NOT the right approach for a scripting-level language li
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Such as?
I mean, threads are already independantly executed elements that have a shared memory space. What do propose instead, forked processes that created a shared memory location? Wouldn't forking a GUI process not only waste a ton of memory (as it creates a copy of the entire process's memory space), but also make it duplicate its windows?
A single-threaded GUI application is the digital equivalent of having a call center with only
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Being smart != being right.
While JS is a nice scripting language, the choice of basing an entire platform on it is horrible and we see the disadvantages in every single XUL app out there.
Threads aren't nice, soft and warm from a programming point of view: yes, they are hard and error prone, if used poorly. No one sais decent applications should be easy to d
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That's basically what he's saying: threads may have a place in the underlying runtime, but not in the toplevel userspace scripting language.
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It already is the reference implementation, of ECMAScript portable (no eval() ). There's no better. And still, it's a superset. It'll always be a superset, since Flash isn't a browser, and needs some things working differently, and some more things ECMA doesn't have.
If y
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ES3 (== JavaScript 1.x, basically) is a subset of
ActionScript 3, which is a subset of
ES4... which isn't yet finalized but does have a reference implementation in place.
For more info on the proposed ES4 standard and implementation, go here: http://www.ecmascript-lang.org/ [ecmascript-lang.org]
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Tamarin is being integrated into Firefox for later versions (it's been open-sourced by Adobe) and so Pyro will get these advantages when that work is completed. There's no good reason to avoid doing work like this now just because optimisations in the back-end are not in place yet.
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First read (Score:4, Interesting)
right alongside desktop apps (through compositing).
At first I thought that said through composting. Guess you'd have to call that organic computing.
On a serious note....Instead, trusted Web sites and extensions are given access to the full range of interactivity and control enjoyed by native applications today.
The "trust" issue would loom very large in that statement. Provides some interesting possibilities all the same.
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But yeah... something about it scares me. Not sure what...
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Given FireFox's history of security issues, I would tend to agree.
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Yeah, I don't like the sound of this either. Seems like a two-level trust scheme: trusted websites have access to everything.
One of the design flaws in present day GUIs (including all the X11-based GUIs for Linux) is that one malicious application can compromise the entire GUI if it can open a window. This is true even if you take the sensible step of running untrust
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Given that X.Org is the X11 reference implementation, I do believe that present day applies when talking about X11.
ARG! POPUPS! (Score:2)
The whole thing sounds to me like running web applications as popups that are exactly like the locally run application windows, both in appearance and in all, or most, of the infrastructure behind them.
I can't think of a better way to assist malicious web apps in fooling the user by removing any clue that they're not something local and innocuous.
A phisher's dream.
Informative parent (Score:2)
bad idea (Score:2)
I can't of course RTFA at the moment due to the flames rolling out of the webserver it is on.
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We? Mr. Gates is this you?
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No, I think we decided that it was a bad idea because MS was doing it - and was using it as an excuse for locking Windows users into IE and its capacity for "embracing and extending" web standards.
Actually, years before that we "decided" that web apps in general were a bad idea when Sun/Oracle touted their java-based thin client/Network Computer idea. I think that died, mainly, because the question was always "yes, but will it run Word for Windows and b
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I think people are seeing how easy GUI is to do in HTML/XHTML and trying to take advantage of that, but in doing so are making it more complicated. It would be a lot smarter to make an add-on for an e
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Haven't we done this before? (Score:2)
Re:Haven't we done this before? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Haven't we done this before? (Score:5, Funny)
That was done in 1998. It was early Web 1.0, and people didn't dig web stuff so much. But now, it's different. There are plenty of uses for a web based desktop, and to quote their site:
Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@pyrodesktop.org and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.
More information about this error may be available in the server error log.
Additionally, a 500 Internal Server Error error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
I think Microsoft is totally shaking in their boots at the thought of Pyro: just consider, a connected, integrated, web desktop. It's just like
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It semed like a good idea, and enabled
Symphony OS Anyone? (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.thecodingstudio.com/opensource/linux/s
Lack of network: Failure? (Score:2)
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Google Cache (Score:3, Informative)
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:6EoAZGSE90IJ:
Internet Explorer (Score:2)
mmm (Score:2)
Look what happened to them..
I will believe it when I see it.
Heh. (Score:2)
Desktop environment built on bugs? (Score:2, Interesting)
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Hmm... (Score:2)
User interactivity? (Score:3, Interesting)
finally (Score:2)
Use the hammer! (Score:3, Insightful)
When you're so tunnel blind that all you can see is the web, then everything starts looking like a web page.
Ridiculous! (Score:2)
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Quickly, we must marshal the troops for a return the holy text editor wars!
Expose in Javascript? Damn! (Score:2, Interesting)
I haven't looked yet at how well they accomplished this, but damn, I love the idea of having a common Expose-like function available to me on all the modern OS's I am forced to use daily.
If it's GPL'ed I will check it out.
great (Score:2)
Great idea. Basically, like google-gears? (Score:2)
BTW: I don't know why so many posters are saying that msft tried to do this in 1998, or whatever. Msft has never had anything like this. Pyro would not make FF and integrated part of the desktop. And msft is always 100% proprietary. With msft it's all about vendor-lock-in, Pyro would do just the opposite.
I can see a lot of advantages to browser-based apps. The apps can run on any platform. The apps can be server or client based. The apps can run locally, or a local intranet server, o
(c) Monty Python, the dead parrot sketch (Score:2)
Per your request. (Score:2)
[My english is better than most other people's german, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
"posted"
(Unless there's some variant I'm unaware of, perhaps in UK English or a reference to a comedy routine, where "posten" would be proper or humorous in that sentence.)
Your use of English idiom is excelent.
not as many programmers know them? (Score:2)
While I've seen some very buggy and unportable C code, fixing one platform doesn't tend to break all the others as is the case with the web stuff.
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The fact that you called C and "unpopular language", no matter what you meant by it, completely invalidates any opinion you may have on any programming related topic.
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(I also replied to this because of my signature)
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That's right, it's not.
I hate GNOME as much as the next guy, but let's be fair here -- it's not that GNOME sucks because of GTK+, and really makes no sense to suggest that a graphical toolkit has anything to do with the rest of the desktop -- it doesn't. All GTK+ does is the graphics.
Kind of like -- oh, I don't know -- QT. Which is also used for KDE's graphical tools (Krita).
I mean, really, what you're s
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This is the third post of yours that I'm replying to. You must be either 13 years old or intentionally playing dumb -- the spelling errors are making it hard to read. It's "whole" when you mean complete, not "hole". In fact, "hole", as in security hole, is the opposite of "whole", as in complete.
Great, so when there's some tiny security patch in some library, you have to go re-download the entire fucking library. But hey, at
Correction (Score:2)
Fixed it here. Sorry about that.
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First, spelling check. It's "standard", with a d.
Second, are you absolutely sure there's no way it could have messed up unless it was gnome-control-center? Really? For example: bad RAM, bad disk, etc could all be at fault here. I'm not saying it couldn't possibly be gnome-control-center, but understand that it can't possibly protect yo