Thunderbird to Leave Mozilla Foundation 239
An anonymous reader writes "MozillaZine is reporting that Mozilla Thunderbird is to move to a 'new separate organizational setting' as the Mozilla Foundation focuses more and more on Mozilla Firefox. Citing a blog post by Chief Lizard Wrangler Mitchell Baker, MozillaZine outlines the three possibilities for Thunderbird that are being considered: 'one is to create a entirely new non-profit, which would offer maximum independence for Thunderbird but is organisationally complex. A second option is to create a new subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation for Thunderbird, which would keep the Mozilla Foundation involved but may mean that Thunderbird continues to be neglected in favour of Firefox. A final option is to recast Thunderbird as community project, similar to SeaMonkey, and set up a small independent services and consulting company to continue development. However, there are concerns over how the Thunderbird product, project and company would interact'. Lead Thunderbird developer Scott MacGregor favours the third option."
I submitted this story yesterday... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I submitted this story yesterday... (Score:5, Funny)
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"Wer zuspät kommt, bestraft das Leben,
wer zu früh kommt, bestraft die Frau."
in English:
"He, who commes too late, will be punished by Life.
He, who commes too early, will be punished by his wife"
Doesn't it seem like...? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Doesn't it seem like...? (Score:5, Insightful)
Poor thunderbird (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, when you go to a web page and browse for Firefox extensions, you're doing it in Firefox. You click on the link to an extension, it automatically installs, and takes effect immediately. The Thunderbird, you still browse for extensions in your web browser, you have to download them, and then install them into Thunderbird through Thunderbird.
The whole process feels very different.
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Maybe it introduces security risks I suppose, but the extension could be signed with an encryption key and checked against a Mozilla/TBird-team database to make s
Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:5, Informative)
It has folders which I really do like but it also has tags for those that are into tagging. What is really brilliant is that it allows you to create "folders" that are based on the tags.
Plugins work fine but you just don't need a lot of them for Email. I use GPGP for signing and encryption. The plugin manager could work better. I would say it isn't great for normal end users.
I find it fast and a much better program than Outlook. Now if you compare it to Outlook plus Exchange then it really isn't in the same league.
To me that is the problem. FOSS need a server that will interface with Thunderbird and offer all the same features as Outlook plus exchange and with the same ease of use.
As I Thunderbird user I can not say I am pleased.
Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:5, Insightful)
It also needs (Score:2)
hawk
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I (have to) use Outlook/Exchange at work, but if the "appointment" specification was public, I would be able to get away from it.
In particular, I find that if I receive an appointment, start to reply (maybe giving a "Tentative" response), then cancel that message, it has already disappeared from my Inbox, into my Calendar. I have to find the date (I memorised that, just in case, right?!), find the appointment, and then continue from where I was, giving an "A
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Holy triple negative batman!
Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:5, Insightful)
I find it fast and a much better program than Outlook. Now if you compare it to Outlook plus Exchange then it really isn't in the same league. To me that is the problem.
I think you're right-- that's the problem. How to solve that problem, I don't know, but that is most likely the reason why Thunderbird doesn't have a larger user base.
I think most people who use e-mail fall into a couple groups.
The only real group that Thunderbird could go after would be the business users. However, in order to do that, you need to be able to connect to Exchange and do calendars, notes, task lists, and Exchange contact lists. Of course, you could also replace Exchange with something else, but that something else would have to have the same sorts of features, and Thunderbird would still have to connect to it.
Contrary to what many geeks think, Exchange/Outlook is very helpful for a lot of businesses. Connecting tasks, calendars, e-mail, and contacts all together, and making that available through client software, on the web, and on mobile devices has turned out to be the big-business killer app.
OpenGroupware + Thunderbird + Lightning + plugins (Score:5, Interesting)
OpenGroupware (nightly builds) support CalDAV, and Thunderbird
This works today(!), though it's non-trivial to set up, and you have to be careful about versions. The combination to use is Lightning 0.3.1, the latest Thunderbird, OpenGroupware nightly, and the latest GroupDAV free/busy and shared address lists plugins. Unfortunately the latest Sunbird/Lightning (0.5) doesn't work right now, but bugs have been filed and the developers understand the problem... and a fix will happen in time.
OK, it's less functional and robust compared to the dominant player... but it's cheaper.
Re:OpenGroupware + Thunderbird + Lightning + plugi (Score:3, Insightful)
Unfortunately, that will kill it dead in the corporate space. Cheaper isn't cheaper if you lose money because the server keeps going down (or whatever).
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loathe Outlook and regularly curse the fact that I'm required to use it at work, and would dearly love there to be a viable replacement. As such, I'm quietly rooting for any such project.
But make no mistake, "cheaper but less functional and robust" (than Outlo
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Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:4, Informative)
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It is. You're right. And actually this is the core issue with OSS versus MS. The OS doesn't matter to business users, but Office and Exchange are the key reasons MS has domination of the OS -- because business needs these to be compatible and familiar across the board.
Trouble is, most OSS developers don't work in that kind of World (which is good for them admittedly), which does
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Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:5, Informative)
I need to schedule a meeting with 20 people, and book a conference room. Find me the first 1-hour slot when all 20 and any room is free. Now notify everybody about the meeting and tell me if they're going to come - and put everything on everybody's calendars for them.
No open source package does this to my knowledge. If anything did it as well as Outlook/Exchange it would take off very quickly. Outlook has just-about eliminated the administrative assistant for most ordinary workers...
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Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:5, Interesting)
Calendar functionality should be an option during install, and however it needs to be done, compatibility with Mobile devices for synchronization should be implemented. Personally, I use a cell phone, and don't or even like PIMs, but I can't stand having to deal with Outlook just so someone can use a Blackberry.
Finally, something needs to be done in terms of simple profile migration, and the import/export features need to be more robust. For example, if you want to switch someone to Thunderbird from Outlook Express, you have to activate a profile in Outlook Express. If Thunderbird can't find it in the default location, it doesn't let you choose a WAB file. That is pitiful. Same goes for importing Thunderbird stuff into Thunderbird. It shouldn't be that difficult to prompt for a file location and take it from there.
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I really like Thunderbird 2.0.x It is more stable than the ver 1.5.x especially with the Lightning calendar extension. Mozilla should highlight one feature that could make more people want to use Thunderbird: it can be used as an excellent backup tool for various web based email including Gmail and Yahoo mail.
Finally, many probably don't realize that Thunderbird/Lighning Calendar could bidirectionally sync to Google's Calendar via the Provider for Google Calendar extension. Here is a link to an article co
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It could just be that when it comes to e-mail, there are plenty of competitors. It's not that Thunderbird is bad in anyway, but it's a matter of taste. Some people like Evolution, some like GMail, some (for some reason) like Outlook. There are many more freely available mail clients than web browsers. It would be very unlikely for Thunderbird to meet the reception that Firefox did.
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I guess that's the just of it, what other mail clients are there that are cross platform (Mac, Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, etc) and have IMAP support that isn't broken?
Then again, 90% of the world probably couldn't care less if their mail app of choice wasn't cross platfo
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Frankly, the only mail clients I use are GMail and Thunderbird. However, I don't know anyone else (outside of online contacts) who use Thunderbird. My wife uses the Apple mail client, at work we use Lotus Notes, etc. There just seem to be a lot more options, even in the FLOSS spectrum (eg, KMail, Pine, Mutt, etc).
For whatever reason, it seems like mail clients are much more about taste than a web browser is.
To be honest, Thunderbird is not up to par (Score:5, Insightful)
But why do I keep using it? Because I hope it will become as good as Firefox and switching email clients is never as straightforward as one would like. And I'm not saying FF does not have flaws, in my opinion benefits outweighs the flaws. I'm not sure if this is true with TB. I have no idea, and I'm probably not alone failing to predict the future, if a new status for Thunderbird will actually help the project or not... I guess we'll find out in a few months/years!
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I'm guessing that you receive your email via a POP server. If you used an IMAP server, and you could switch between clients 10 times a day with no grief.
That said, I agree with you about Thunderbird's shortcomings. So why do I stick with it? Because other email programs usually have more features, but their implementation is always too Rube Goldberg [anl.gov]. Usually, I can't even find a simple obvious way to say "show me the next unread
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I'm guessing that you receive your email via a POP server. If you used an IMAP server, and you could switch between clients 10 times a day with no grief.
Actually, I use IMAP at home and at work, but I don't know how to use it efficiently: since I have over 5,000 emails (much more in fact), many that I want/need to keep for work-related purposes, I move them in specific folders. Doesn't this defeat the purpose of IMAP? IMAP is not meant for syncing thousands of emails, am I wrong? Because of this, I always felt that even if my email is IMAP, this was more or less useless since my email archive is not IMAP compatible because if its size. (tell me and wrong a
You're wrong (Score:2)
Sorry to be so blunt, but you did ask to be told. :-)
There aren't any particular limits on IMAP, and it's not really designed to "sync" mail. It's a way for mail (however many folders, subfolders, or whatever) to live on a central server, while your client downloads a list of them and then asks to see whichever one you click on.
Most clients also have an offline mode, where it copies everything locally, but there is exactly one master mail store. And you can change clients 10 times in a day with no grief
Re:You're wrong - not that wrong? (Score:2)
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Do you run your own mail server at home? If so, try changing to Dovecot [google.com]. They passed 1.0 (1.0.2 now) and they deserve it. Handles maildirs, GSSAPI, and it's fast. I have 5,981 messages in my Inbox alone, probably 5 times that in all the other folders, every non-spam e-mail I've ever sent or received since I started running my own mail server ... God, it was 6 years ago now. Anyway, I had to switch away from Courier-IMAP about 9 months ago because it's a dog when you have large maildis, and Dovecot was the o
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I use dovecot on my server over imaps and connect with mutt in a screen session on my main machine. i get mail anywhere in the world that has terminal emulator w/ ssh. And it rocks. The only one dovecot chokes on is my debian-user archive which typically has about 20k messages in it. (don't ask, I'm an addict). but even that only takes a little bit (maybe 20 seconds) to sync up and sort.
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Aww, wtf, Google ref stuck in my link. That'll teach me. Here's the right link. [dovecot.org]
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Which purpose is that, and how is using folders defeating it? Somehow, I doubt that IMAP's designers added support for folders (and many folder features) but didn't intend folks to use them.
I myself have almost 6000 messages in my work IMAP
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I don't delete mail as a matter of principle (well except for email used only for large file transfer - I save files and delete emails). It only consumes 1GB, and that is all of about 50 cents these days (even with RAID5). Why would I spend my time to shave 20 cents off my infrastructure costs? And at the risk of accidentally tossing something important?
no good alternatives either (Score:2)
I see several GNOME-friendly alternatives. All of them are horribly buggy. Evolution has had a whopper (your inbox corrupted) for over 5 years last I checked. All of them are half-done, except maybe Evolution which is just shockingly buggy and slow. (Evolution was written by retarded monkeys who smoke crack -- but at least it reports the weather! Wait, REPORTS TH
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I think you hit the nail on the head. People who require Outlook/Exchange for work use Outlook as their client; those who don't generally use Gmail or some other web mail service. There isn't much room in between for a standalone email client anymore.
Cheers,
IT
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I think the question this leaves on the table is one of software system architectur
Tab in Firefox (Score:2)
Anyone besides me wish that you could run Thunderbird in a tab inside Firefox, ala FireFTP? If the interface was Gmail-esque and ran in a tab, with a shared Sunbird calendar in another tab, that would be the killer arrangement for me. If those apps all came bundled in server side application suite along with a portal and company wiki so you could either setup and manage it internally or hire out hosted services, that might be very appealing in the business world.
My sense is we're on the verge of moving
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Switched to KMail (Score:2)
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Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:4, Insightful)
One word: gmail
Re:Poor thunderbird (Score:5, Insightful)
Because there's no reason it would. First wave of Firefox adoption was developers and savvy users. They got development extensions and they cared about good CSS/JS support.
You don't develop for e-mail. You could assemble the occasional HTML email but that's hardly "development".
Second wave of adoption came from the fact not that Firefox is good, but that IE was bad. No tabs (the mythical tabs) and poor security led companies and users to switch.
There were some VBS related exploits for Outlook (part of Office) but nothing last few years about Outlook Express (part of Windows). Outlook Express is a very decent mail client, and people just use it for what it is.
Killer features can't push people to adopt Thunderbird since people care to receive and send their email only. Thunderbirds spam filtering isn't noticed by anyone using Outlook Express. (hm.. what about email tabs...? naah).
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"I suspect [it doesn't compete well in the email marketspace] because thunderbird doesn't really offer anything more than its competitors"
It could also be the fact that it sucks. My experience with it has been that set up is equally as annoying as the MS alternative. It cannot format email consistently. Sometimes I like to set the size and font to one setting for quotes and another for replys, but Tunderbird likes to reset evrything to Helvetica 14 point. In my experience, it was not stable. It wou
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But really the fact it doesnt have a calandar is why it cant be deployed in an office environment. Theres some way on outlook to se
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Maybe it's not Thunderbird?
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You have to wonder why thunderbird doesn't compete as well in the email marketspace as firefox does in the browser market space. I suspect its because thunderbird doesn't really offer anything more than its competitors and because it has few must-have extensions. But it could also be the prevalence of web mail. So what would make a killer email client?
Thunderbird is just plain clumsy to use. To see this, just try the file open dialogue, it is excruciatingly painful. In particular, try to type in the name of a file rather than navigating with the mouse. Try the filter setup, compare to kmail. See how much work it is to set up a filter for, say, a mailing list, compared to kmail. Hundreds of little fit and finish things, for example, after you set up a new filter, it is not selected by default for running, this takes an extra click. Restarting Thund
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i am cursing whenever i use them in thunderbird or gimp (or very rarely - firefox).
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You have to wonder why thunderbird doesn't compete as well in the email marketspace as firefox does in the browser market space
I am not trolling, but my karma's probably going to get hosed here because there's no faster way to get people whipped up crooked-ass bent out of shape, making vi vs emacs look like a kiddie-time quarrel, than to tell people their email environment is going to change, should be used differently, is not as good as another environment, etc. Discussions about e-mail clients == religious war.
For me, e-mail clients are dead. Post gmail, webmail is good enough for me, particularly with the keyboard interface
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Third option (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Third option (Score:5, Interesting)
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I hope Thnderbird sticks around (Score:2, Interesting)
I do have some gripes when it comes to the way most extensions and plugins are handled for it though, much like other people are saying...
I'd rather see it stay in the Mozilla foundation but if it must leave then I would prefer the third option as well. The second one really sucks...
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What is the Foundation not providing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Given the Mozilla Foundation HAS a substantial amount of money, presumably spinning Thunderbird out into a separate entity will mean Thunderbird will have even less money than it has today because it can not be cross-subsidised by Firefox's search revenues. Spinning Thunderbird out, which will cost it more and earn it less, doesn't sound like a recipe for success if your problem is lack of resources.
Exactly what I was thinking. (Score:5, Insightful)
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First there was Netscape, the browser, which of course grew to include a mail reader (as all apps must), then with NS4 it became a suite with an HTML editor and what-all else.
Then it became Mozilla, which started life as a NS4-style suite, but people wanted a non-bloated browser, so they made Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox (which of course went on to become quite popular) along with the suite, then they started offering all (most? whatever) portions of the suite available as se
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Every time a post comes up on Slashdot about Thunderbird, I see the EXACT same comments - "our business uses Outlook, we've tried Thunderbird but it doesn't compete. If it did, we'd switch in a second."
Our business is the same; we'd happily make the switch away from Outlook+Exchange if Thunderbird was a viable alternative. It's n
Don't Crap On Tbird (Score:4, Interesting)
What should an email client do? How about -- email. Just email. Not email and newsgroups, not email and collaboration, not email and Facebook -- just plain old simple email. Sure, I'll concede to HTML email for you folks who can't stand to not have a little color in your lives and insist on spamming my box with your yellow backgrounds and pink text, but it's still email.
Tbird is awesome and makes almost no waves because of a) marketing -- the browser wars are much more publicized, b) marketing -- Microsoft isn't really trying to take over the world with Outlook, because they know it sucks, and c) marketing -- There's not much word-of-mouth going on because email mostly works with just about any client and people put up with it, so there's not as much of a scramble for a "good" email client.
I love the app. It works and works and works and doesn't break and doesn't screw up one of the most important things in my online life, electronic mail. I don't want to see it backburnered by the Foundation, either, but at the same time, I'm happier thinking that the Foundation has their finger on where it's going and so far, I trust that they're not going to make it suck. So I'd be preferable to leaving it their hands for that reason.
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No thanks. Newsgroups make up a significant part of my Thunderbird usage. Take them away, and I'd have to switch to something like Outlook Express - not a pleasant thought.
Basically, you're making the mistake of reducing Thunderbird to what you see it as useful for. But Thunderbird isn't an "email client". It's an email/NNTP/RSS client. To make it into a pure email client would be to change its very nature, and at t
Winifred is the problem, not Thunderbird. (Score:3, Insightful)
There are many, many quirks in Firefox, not just Thunderbird, that should be fixed, but no technically oriented manager to organize that. For example, the CPU hogging bug has been there for at least 5 years. Winifred has insufficient control over those who work for her, because she doesn't understand what they do. The Firefox CPU hogging and memory gobbling bug would take some serious troubleshooting to find, and no one wants to do the work, apparently. See Firefox development sometimes resembles playing. [slashdot.org]
Don't let ignorant and managers destroy your programming efforts. Find some way to have them removed.
Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have a problems about how she is doing in that role, then say so, but otherwise you are complaining about the wrong person.
That doesn't follow (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Winifred is the problem, not Thunderbird. (Score:4, Informative)
You mean the one where If you open a lot of windows and tabs in Firefox on a laptop, and put the laptop in and out of standby, you will eventually notice that the laptop fan is running all the time, even when there is no activity. That's the CPU bug, and it can potentially shorten the life of your laptop [slashdot.org]? It looks like it's fixed [mozilla.org]. As for a "memory gobbling bug", you'll have to describe in much more detail what you mean. Firefox seems to use less memory than other browsers [mozillazine.org], and in addition, about 100 memory leak bugs have been fixed in the past year [mozilla.org].
If you see a quirk in Firefox, simply write up a bug report specifying in enough detail what the problem is, and it will be fixed. Whining about them on Slashdot is about the least effective thing you can do.
What about Eudora? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Which was preferable to saying "We've got this odd legacy product we don't want to publicly kill but aren't interested in it and the minimal revenue stream we see from it." So the solution was to gift it to the Mozilla Foundation and let them be responsible for it's sinking or swimming.
Since that magnanimous gesture (and I'm being overly cynical, it probably was the best thing thing f
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Yeah, replying to myself...
Penelope [mozilla.org] is the Thundora name. It's got a Talk [mozilla.org] page, mostly full of wishlists.
The great news is it looks like the entire Qualcomm team went with Eudora, so it's skilled coders well familiar with the territory. How they interact with the Tbird team is hard to tell from a cursory lookover.
Frankly I'm betting their value is as a team of experienced email developers, and any code they can reuse from Eudora is just gravy compared to their skillsets and understanding of the problem
Oh my.... (Score:2, Interesting)
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as a spin-off with it's own group progress would be more steady and less tied to progress with firefox.
Why throw out TB? (Score:4, Funny)
Of course the most obvious answer... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's just a case of glory seekers. From the Mozillazine forums/Bugzilla, it appears MScott is pretty much the only truly dedicated developer of Thunderbird. It's not as "sexy" as Firefox, so people want to contribute to the browser instead. Firefox has brand recognition to almost make it a household name like IE is now. Thunderbird, not nearly so much.
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Saddening. (Score:2)
Firefox is cool, and exciting - and it generates millions of dollars in kickbacks from Google from the default search bar. Thunderbid enjoys no such advantage. What's more, there are several good alternatives to Thunderbird, and a smaller development community. I can't help thinking this mainly comes down to politics within Mozilla,
Another wake up call... (Score:3, Interesting)
MoFo/MoCo are owned in a serious financial way by Google. Remember the Mozilla Suite was dumped in a similar, though worse, manner just a few years ago when Google poored money all over the cash strapped Mozilla that AOL left behind. Google wasn't interested in financing the suite. Google probably stipulates that their financing only go to Firefox development, where Google is front and center in the users face. Google isn't likely to help finance a mail client where they don't see any return on investment. Google wants you to use Gmail for the ads.
The funds Mozilla had before the Google deal were likely diverted from the suite to Thunderbird and other applications. Mozilla has likely exhausted those funds now. Thunderbird developers should join the SeaMonkey community. Together the community and the projects might survive this.
Future prediction of a friend: When the government cracks down on MoFo's shady tax history, MoFo will go under and Google will likely buy MoCo and spin it as if they saved Mozilla.
http://www.scroogle.org/mozilla.html [scroogle.org]
Inability To Manage a Product Line (Score:5, Funny)
Idiocy or deliberate sabotage? (Score:2, Insightful)
Perhaps Mozilla need a business orientated product manager to take Thunderbird out into the world. In ditching XULRunner and now looking to rid themselves of TB, they're left fighting a losing battle. Imagin
gmail (Score:5, Insightful)
The Thunderbird Foundation? (Score:3, Interesting)
The Calendar extension needs more work, and so does the Address book. I need to be able to get the Address book to export to Outlook CSVs so that I can import them into my Yahoo address book, or my Timex Datalink Watch or iPaq because the Thunderbird CSV files don't work with those applications.
Having data syncing with the calendar and address book with mobile devices, PDAs, watches, etc would be a good thing as well.
Has Mozilla forgotten their mission ? (Score:5, Interesting)
- They are becoming beholden to Google and a single project (Firefox). We don't need another Opera (nothing wrong with Opera per se), or another browser created by yet another software company. OSS is supposed to be a *different* business model, with a *broader* vision, benefitting the public, not just Google proxies or lackies.
-It would seem that they endanger their status as a 501c3 public charity/foundation, and thus their tax-exempt status. IIRC, a 501c3 cannot accept more than 10% of their funding from any one source. At the moment Mozilla is rapidly looking like they are doing coding for hire (Firefox for Google).
- Pushing Thunderbird forward *within* Mozilla would at least maintain some sense that 1) they are promulgating a broader mission, 2) they are doing more than what Google asks them to.
- If Google's funding is truly earmarked for Firefox (as suggested in this thread), Mozilla should end that right now, and stipulate to Google that at least some reasonable fraction of their "donation" (e.g. 30%) MUST be in the form of an "unrestricted grant", that could and will be use for other projects in the foundation, like Thunderbird.
Mozilla is nuts for focusing on Firefox at the expense of Thunderbird. They are losing sight of their entire unique contribution to the community, and their larger mission.
Email is an essential function of the Internet and modern computing. If Thunderbird isn't doing so well, Mozilla should be fixing the problem and addressing those issues head-on, rather than jettisoning and punting on it.
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No, email has become an essential function for informing me how I can use {herbal, synthetic, generic} products to expand my {penis, breasts, volume}.
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They are catchy and easy to remember, and somewhat related to each other still, so there's been no reason to change them again.
It also appears to be a legend in North America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbird_(mytholog y) [wikipedia.org]
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Re:Geez (Score:4, Insightful)
Ultimately, I just wonder if it has enough developer person-hours to compete with Outlook. Firefox definitely does.
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