Microsoft Should Abandon Vista? 1119
mr_mischief writes "An editorial written by Don Reisinger over at CNet's News.com takes Microsoft to task for the outright failure of Vista. He suggests that Vista may be the downfall of the company as, despite years in development, Vista was delivered to market too early. His suggestion? Support those who are running it, but otherwise ditch Vista and move on. 'Never before have I seen such an abysmal start to an operating system release. For almost a year, people have been adopting Vista and becoming incensed by how poorly it operates. Not only does it cost too much, it requires more to run than XP, there is still poor driver support ... With Mac OS X hot on its tail, Vista is simply not capable of competing at an OS level with some of the best software around. If Microsoft continues down this path, it will be Vista that will bring the software giant to its knees--not Bill Gates' departure.'"
Huh? worst start? (Score:5, Informative)
Progress (Score:1, Informative)
Re:leave it alone!! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Verdict is in? (Score:4, Informative)
Finally getting MythTV working with my remote, configuring my video drivers properly, and getting my SPDIF audio working were the final nails for me. Now Linux can do pretty much everything that Windows Media Center was doing for me before. I haven't rebooted from my Ubuntu partition in weeks. I find I'm far more efficient in this OS (even with the GL Desktop disabled!)
Re:MOD UP! (Score:2, Informative)
This reminds me..... (Score:4, Informative)
Now for you youngsters who don't know what I'm talking about, DOS 4.0 was a train wreck of an operating system that gave user's who 'upgraded' from 3.X nothing but bugs and heartache.
What's that old saying? Oh Yeah, it's "Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it." I guess 15-18 years is enough time to forget about past mistakes.
I use Vista daily. (Score:2, Informative)
I just played through Bioshock (which isn't coming to a Mac near you, BTW). A few times through the 30 or so hours I spent playing the game, the screen went black for 10 seconds, and then came back up. I didn't know what had happened the first time it did that until I quit the game, and there was a dialog box saying something about the video driver crashing, but apparently Vista reloaded the driver, with just a momentary hiccup. On a Mac or an XP box, a video driver crash generally means hitting the Reset button.
Aero has some nice eye candy, but I ended up turning it off because my Illustrator CS2 pallets were incompatible with it. QuickBooks 2006 won't run on Vista, but I already have my old XP system installed on a Virtual PC drive for other work that I do, so I'll probably install QB there.
My brother is using the 64 bit version of Vista for his video production work (since 32 bit Vista is capped at 3 GB of RAM), so I know that there's a lot more headaches with 64 bit Vista. But, I was a Mac user when Apple switched from OS 9 to OS X, and how many headaches there were with that. I've been in IT long enough to know that major OS upgrades always come with a price, but progress is generally worth it.
Yeah, the DRM sucks, but what can you do?
Oh, and if you want to turn off the "Allow or Deny" dialogs (which are EXTREMELY annoying), just go to the User Accounts Control Panel and turn off User Account Control.
Re:Verdict is in? (Score:3, Informative)
Yep, I've had signifigant problems. The removal of MS-CHAPv1 forced me to upgrade my office's vpn/router. Now works perfectly supporting both MS-CHAP 1 & 2. I have a couple of pieces of software that like to give me grief, but nothing I haven't worked around..
Memory useage sucks, I admit it freely. My laptop is a beefy box, but every now and then it slows to a crawl. There are bugs...oh yes there are bugs. Media Centre has issues at times with DivX files. Driver support is spotty at best. The Ultimate edition has got me diddly-squat over other editions really. UAC is retarded "Yes, I'm sure I want to move this file....yes, I want to connect to....aw fuckit"
I've grown to HATE Vista.
Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I really don't hate Vista. It works - for the most part. Things are signifigantly more stable even now than back in the pre-release days (I've been testing since Beta 1), and I have hope that SP1 will fix some of the more annoying crap. Drivers are coming...although in the same vein you can't blame Microsoft when vendors choose to discontinue driver support for (x) product - thats the manufacturer's business choice.
I in no way think Microsoft released the next thing to perfection in Vista....but I really don't think it is complete ass either. Look at the release of Win95, or XP, and you'll see a similar pattern of spotty driver support, some applications failing to work, etc. The only real problem this time is everyone seems so hell-bent to beat on Microsoft that they're causing alot of the issues, being writing dodgy drivers, or software bugs in their products, etc.
I'm no Microsoft lover, be assured....but if the vendor community as a whole actually worked with Microsoft (and Microsoft with them) to get their shit done right, then quite frankly Vista wont suck...at least not as much
Vista right now is very WinME-like, but the OS does have potential. At least I can still surf for porn
Re:Second Edition (Score:3, Informative)
If you need OS 9 on an Intel Mac, you'll have to run an app like Sheepshaver [beauchesne.info].
Mac isn't the best example for backwards compatibility. When they decide they're going to change, they're done. And since they do both the hardware AND software, it's dead.
Re:I use Vista daily. (Score:4, Informative)
Indeed. I wonder whether 64bit will ever be ready for the mainstream. At some time it will have to be, I guess, but when is that? Certainly not before 32bit become rather painful.
The main problem with Windows and 64bit is that you need all new drivers, because pretty much every driver is in kernel space. And then there is the horridness of the 32bit subsystem: 32bit libraries go into WoW64, 64bit libraries go into System32. Sounds like Alice in Wonderland, doesn't it? Dropping the 16bit subsystem didn't help either, because it seems a lot of installers still need it.
Of course Linux has it own problems with 64bit. RedHat tries to be as compatible as possible, but only to RedHat. And Debian goes "pure64", with no compatibility whatsoever, and certainly not to RedHat. Until this problem is resolved, 64bit Linux will go nowhere either.
Re:Real problem (Score:2, Informative)
The even more real problem is that hard drive speeds haven't made any huge increases. That is the real bottleneck in personal computer performance. Maybe when we start moving towards solid-state hard drives things will speed up.
Re:Cluestick to Microsoft: Focus on Fundamentals.. (Score:1, Informative)
++ This is in Vista. On the left pane of an Open dialog, you can add/remove favorite folders
- Expose. Enough said.
++ A big part of Vista was reworking the GUI backend and adding a composition layer, making this possible. In fact 3rd parties have already created expose clones. They're not perfect, but it's getting there. Now imagine if Vista put expose in the OS by default... that would bring a whole other level of hate from the apple fanatics.
- A built in spell checker / Dictionary / Thesaurus, with quick access to wikipedia
++ This exists in Office, but where are you suggesting this goes? In notepad? The yells of bloat would be overwhelming.
- A search that isn't broken (Thx WinXP!)
++ Have you tried the search in Vista? It's find-as-you type in every explorer window (the top right). It also works great from the start menu. Very conveniant to hit the windows key and type the program/file you want and find it instantly.
- The ability to re-locate, (or hide) the dam 'close' button
++ Why? Below you lament over the lack of a good "kill" feature. Why would you allow a program to take the UI equivalent of that from the user?
- Title bars that stop sucking up valuable screen space, instead of being small movable tabs like in BeOS
++ I had to go look up what you meant, but to me having tabs takes up the same visual space and adds clutter. How often do you think "oh I wish this title bar was a tab instead, it's blocking so much stuff in the top right corner". Plus you can see through the Aero glass now
- Virtual Desktops
++ Not exactly sure what you're asking for here. There's a VM client that's free from MS. There's also plenty of multiple desktop software solutions out there.
- An OS that gets FASTER from version to version (again BeOS)
++ This would be nice. But the eye candy will slow it down one way or another. I mean, just above you ask for expose. A feature that requires a video card to run smoothly.
- A proper KILL command -- I'm admin on the dam box, let me kill that process.
++ This I would like. Task manager doesn't cut it. Process explorer (from MS) is pretty good but not built in.
- Unified widgets/gadgets: NO, I don't want seperate run-times for Yahoo, Google, Apple, Microsoft, insert flavor of the month company because they decided to do their own implementation.
++ Don't know much about this so won't comment.
- A home folder without spaces that doesn't move with almost every version of windows.
- A file system that doesn't suck. YES, I want to be able to start my filenames with spaces for sorting purposes (Thx Explorer. NOT.) have my filenames contain colons, end with a period or question mark. And treat the underscore as a virtual space, so we don't have to quote filenames in our command scripts. A way to "tag" files, so I can visually see BOTH a heirarchy, AND flat filesystem.
++ I would like to see these, although the whole naming thing isn't that important to me.
- Config files that can be moved from system to system instead of hiding everything in the bloated registry
++ Yes.
- Free dev tools would be nice.
++ There's TONS of free stuff from MS. Pretty much every visual studio feature now has an "Express" version that is free. In fact you need to use Visual Studio 2005 Express to develop on the XNA (free) game engine for both windows and xbox360
- Stop rebooting my dam system everytime you update system software. Or at least give me notification/icon that a reboot is required BEFORE installing.
++ This bugs me too. Although most software nowadays warns me to close certain programs in order to avoid a reboot.
Re:woa wooooaaaa woah (Score:5, Informative)
To make matters worse, they were recently upgraded to Office 2007.
At such a *low* resolution, with all the fancy eye-candy they have added, there is a little tiny window in the center of the monitor where I can actually see what I'm working on. There is so much wasted space (i.e., a 1/4" bar that says "Click here to enable Instant Search") that there is hardly any room to get any work done. It almost feels like I'm trying to view a document on a PocketPC or something... To make matters worse, I'm a touch typist and seldom use the mouse for something like Print Preview (Alt-F-V in the past) and now when I try to do that, it pops up a dialog telling me that I'm about to Convert my document instead of Preview it. Thanks, Microsoft, thanks a lot!
Re:Cluestick to Microsoft: Focus on Fundamentals.. (Score:1, Informative)
The new standard file dialogs in Vista use the same Favorites panel as Explorer. Drag a folder there, and it shows up pretty much everywhere. (Not all apps seem to pick up the Vista dialog though. Not sure why yet.)
- Expose. Enough said.
Good luck shutting up the Mac fanboys. (As opposed to Mac users, like myself.)
- A built in spell checker / Dictionary / Thesaurus, with quick access to wikipedia
Agreed.
- A search that isn't broken (Thx WinXP!)
Vista has that. Google is trying to legislate it out of existence because they "don't know how" to disable Microsoft's built-in indexer service.
- A proper KILL command -- I'm admin on the dam box, let me kill that process.
Right click the task bar, and select Task Manager. (Ctrl-Shift-Esc also works.) Click "Show processes from all users". Right click a process, and select "End Process".
- Unified widgets/gadgets...
That's a universal problem. A common runtime for Dashboard, Yahoo Widgets, Sidebar, and Plasma would be sweet, but it'll happen when pigs fly.
- A home folder without spaces that doesn't move with almost every version of windows.
The bad news: They changed it again in Vista. The good news: No more spaces. "Documents and Settings" has been replaced with "Users", and that "My Foo" crap is gone. It's just nice one-word folders now: C:\Users\[username]\Documents.
- Free dev tools would be nice.
Check out the free-as-in-beer Visual Studio Express Editions, or just download the
- Stop rebooting my dam system everytime you update system software. Or at least give me notification/icon that a reboot is required BEFORE installing.
Amen, brother. Mac OS X does a much better job of this.
Re:New Coke wasn't a failure (Score:3, Informative)
The outpouring of nostalgia was unexpected and they jumped on it. Coke in many countries does not have any corn syrup (for example, coke in Mexico and in China), and yet is still marketed as Coke classic.
I personally prefer sugar Coke to corn syrup Coke and am always happy to be in a country where HFCS is not the sweetener of choice. But I don't think they did it on purpose.
Get decalf. And an enter key. (Score:5, Informative)
Reading a text block like that is the visual equivelant of listening to those sped up caveats they spit out at the end of car commercials - their must be something in there...but who the hell knows, I stopped paying attention 8 words in.
Re:All the Puppy does is Wine. (Score:4, Informative)
And Outlook, Jesus. Outlook/Exchange is a fricking deal breaker, you will run up against that wall over and over again, and trying to sell people on OWA or Lotus does not work. Outlook is one of those apps that does not have an OSS equivalent, and if you say "Evolution" you're telling me that you have no idea why people use Outlook.
Re:MOD UP! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I use Vista daily. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Whatever (Score:2, Informative)
Um, what? Why would they include any of those things in the first place? If that's your frustration with Windows, well, its a pretty poor reason to be frustrated.
Anywho, if you want a good cmd shell, get powershell [msdn.com] for Vista. Vista also comes with IE; you may not like it, but complaining it doesn't come with FF would be like complaining linux doesn't come with Opera or Safari.
If you really want to do python, you should check out IronPython [codeplex.com]. Supposedly its faster than many of the other Phython implementations out there.
Re:Whatever (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Second Edition (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Real problem (Score:5, Informative)
Windows XP will run for years+ without needing a reinstall, it has excellent hardware support and will run practically any software. It works fine on 5-year-old or ultra-cheap hardware. It has a familiar interface, good-enough network support for file sharing etc. Basically it does everything people need from it. So they have no motivation to go to Vista, which by all accounts provides an overall worse user experience than XP, while costing a lot more and requiring a fuckton more hardware power.
Packard Bell Navigator (Score:2, Informative)
(hey look, someone has screen shots [toastytech.com])
Re:Whatever (Score:2, Informative)
Crusades are not part of the Christian faith in itself - at least I could not find a licence to kill in Jesus' teachings or biography.
Jihad, the Holy War, on the other hand, is an essential part of Islam. The school of thought that reduces Jihad to a fight within each person is not justified by looking at Muhammad's life.
At all times people have tried to justify violence with whatever religion was dominant where they lived. But there is a difference between Islam and Christianity in the ease with which you can patch together parts of the Qur'an to persecute other faiths.
Re:It's all just a misunderstanding. (Score:3, Informative)
Except for games I've been able to entirely replace my windows install. I've not once had to go out and muck about in the console or installing software on my own.
I suspect that for many hobbyists, this may be true these days. The problem, for those who would like to see Linux as a viable competitor for Windows on the general home or business user's desktop, is that the Linux world just hasn't reached the same level in some key application areas yet.
Compare and contrast, if you will, the big names in document/graphics preparation:
Of course, there are also more niche but essential products in diverse fields from CAD to image rendering, where the Linux world doesn't really have anything to compete with the big boys yet.
Then we have games for the home user (assuming they don't just use a console). On Windows, we've had things like Supreme Commander, Oblivion, etc. over the past year or two. Meanwhile, the Linux world isn't even close to Windows classics like Total Annihilation, Deus Ex or the Baldur's Gate series, all of which were out years ago, and still relies on emulation to support games like these (if you can get your graphics card drivers to work and your favourite games are all supported, that is).
Sure, Linux has good Internet tools: there are decent web browsers, e-mail clients, and the like, and that's a major stepping stone. There's also the LAMP stack for developing useful database applications, which is another important tick on the list. And it has increasingly respectable media support (though some sort of consolidation in this area is desperately needed, as is out-of-the-box support for things like digital cameras and camcorders that use proprietary Windows software to get the pics/vids off the hardware and into a standard format on the hard drive). But until there are serious document/graphics systems for business users (I'm not even going to enter into discussions about why the above-mentioned are not serious as far as professionals are concerned; we've had those discussions many times before) and serious games for the home market, Linux will never be a viable competitor for Windows in the eyes of many users, no matter how good the operating system itself may get. And that's just competing: to win, you need to have killer apps that aren't available on Windows, and right now there isn't a single one of those.
Of course, this is not an unassailable problem. While I call it as I see it for the relative quality and power of the Linux apps of today, I also see that with the right project leadership, the OSS model has the potential to bridge all of these gaps relatively quickly. The irony of this whole situation, coming back to the topic at hand, is that Microsoft is currently doing more to level the playing field than anything the Linux community could ever do, simply because it appears to be making Windows worse with each successive version. You just can't go around imposing unreliable operation and performance hits, both made worse due to DRM, and countless large updates to patch silly security holes on users forever. Sooner or later, karmic revenge will happen, and for my money, I think Vista is going to make that sooner rather than later.
So while they can't realistically abandon Vista at this stage, it might be smart for them to have a team working on a completely new approach in the background — new architecture, new programming models, new development practices, whatever it takes — with a view to producing a serious contender next time around. When you're the size of Microsoft, you get to survive one Big Mistake on the back of inertia and market forces, but probably not two in a row. They have a lot of smart developers at MS, and some very, very smart people working at Microsoft Research, but it's obvious that their current approach (probably at the business/management level more than anything technical) isn't working and they need to promote up some of those good people and try things a different way.