hairyfeet writes "Despite Microsoft releasing Windows Vista more than nine months ago the adoption rate has not been as Microsoft hoped. Bowing further to pressure from OEMs and consumers, Microsoft has extended the life of Windows XP, which was due to end sale by OEMs on January 1 next year, to a new date of June 30. Asked if this was an indication of a strong demand for XP, a Microsoft representative sought to downplay the extension, stating 'We wouldn't term it strong, we would describe this as accommodating a certain element who needs more time.'"
I'm glad somebody tagged this story with "!januaryfirst".
Now, when I browse the Slashdot archives trying to find stories where somebody mistakenly thought something what January 1 when it actually was not, this one will come up.
'We wouldn't term it strong, we would describe this as accommodating a certain element who needs more time.'
So let me get this straight... if its not demand that's changing this.. and its a certain element who needs more time, well then I am going to guess that its Microsoft that needs more time to push out Vista Service Pack 1. Then hopefully Windows Vista will have the bugs out and customers will want to migrate.
Some people won't move to the next Windows until SP2. A lot won't move until SP1 is out. SP1 isn't ready yet, ergo, accomodate the wait-for-SP1 crowd.
You'll see a lot of other interpretations on Slashdot, but I just don't see them bearing out for most businesses or in the non-Slashdot world in general.
Well, extended support for XP ends in 2014. Considering all of 2008,2009,2010,2011,2012 and 2013 will be the year of the Linux desktop, I highly doubt anyone will still be using XP by then.
Yes, that's obviously the case. Anyone who still trots out the old stupid chestnut "Windows is unstable" argument has either never used 2000 or XP, or is just lying in hopes of attracting attention from the gullible to his purely political motives (or both).
Actually, I think this is pretty fortuitous for Microsoft, despite the fact that it calls attention to Vista's lack of popularity. Computer stores around here are using the fact that they "still" sell computers with XP as a sales tool, and the support extension is a pretty nice method of keeping everyone happy and quiet while Microsoft does whatever they do to Vista to make it a reasonable upgrade. Although I've not used Vista beyond a few tries in the store and a minute or two at a friend's house, it seems from popular opinion (beyond the completely unsurprising groupthink here at Slashdot) that Vista was born prematurely, and Microsoft is fortunate to have a historical product like XP they can use as a tool of placation until the new one is what it always should have been.
XP *is* really good, and Microsoft is pretty lucky that Vista didn't come after, say, Windows 98 or ME, because those are not something they'd want to fall back upon in a situation like this. I guess the old saying is true -- business is as much about timing and luck as it is about skill.
Windows is still less stable than any other modern OS; while it's more stable than any previous MS offering, that's hardly saying much. My linux computers stay on for months at a time with no issues; I have to reboot my windows computers once a week or they slow to a crawl (never mind patch-and-reboot tuesdays!).
XP is *not* really good, it is merely good *enough*.
What are you doing to your windows computers? Mine stays up for months at a time. Dual core AMD, windows xp x64. I'm running a WAMP stack, skype, and play a MMORPG... what are you doing wrong? Or maybe you shoud just admit that you don't know how to admin a windows box like you do a linux machine. Maybe that is the difference.
> 'We wouldn't term it strong, we would describe this as accommodating
a certain element who needs more time.'"
Pressed for clarification, the Microsoft representative continued:
Q: "Would you term the market's adoption of Vista as slow?"
A: "We wouldn't term it slow, we would describe it as approaching that of a sloth on valium."
Some factors affect the uptake of Vista:
1. It needs a lot more RAM. Or atleast people seem to think so.
2. People are waiting for it to "settle down" - probably until Service Pack 1 is released.
3. There is a lot of confusion about different Vista [diffen.com] versions [microsoft.com].
There is also the issue of some drivers not being available [sony.com]. But things will settle down soon enough. One year is not that long of a timeframe to wean marketshare away from one operating system monopoly to another.
...but it was inevitable. Think about it: while Windows Vista is a great operating system and a recommended upgrade from Windows XP, it has been shown all too many times that there are still growing pains evident with it. There are many drivers that are still being tested and revised due to vastly new frameworks implemented by Microsoft (Creative's situation immediately comes to mind, even though it's thankfully been resolved). Furthermore, there are many software packages that have or will definitely have compatibility issues with Vista (financial applications are a huge example of this, since they tend to be much more conservative. I'm not including the super-large firms that absolutely need to continue relying on extremely antiquated software).
While officially removing Windows XP support will be mostly transparent to end users, developers will be forced to migrate all of their time and energy to a new operating system with a lot of changes under the hood instead of spending time steadily updating current software while researching and testing compatible Vista software as well. Many IT managers and decision-makers will have to devote much more energy to supporting Vista faster, which can result in less-than-stellar results (it's corporate habit to accept a new operating system much later than their introduction).
I think this is a good way for Microsoft to ensure that they keep the risks of transition as minimal as possible. Vista migration will undoubtedly happen, but it's best that it is slow and exceptional rather than rapid and disappointing (as many users are quickly finding out).
This is true. But then you run into interoperability issues within the company as well as with outside interests.
A couple of years ago, I started pushing for OpenOffice, instead of MS Office at my old company. Not even switching whole hod to Linux, just going to OOo. Did a whole usability analysis, cost structure, retraining, conversion of existing tools, all that crap. This was a $100M division of a 1/2 billion dollar company.
The reason it got shot down? All our clients/customers were on MS Office, and
...the allegations that their users claimed Vista is a pile of manure, the representative said "We wouldn't term it manure, we'd say it has very strong properties, promotes groth and has fertilizing capabilities."
..the allegations that their users claimed Vista is a pile of manure, the representative said "We wouldn't term it manure, we'd say it has very strong properties, promotes groth and has fertilizing capabilities."
Though that is what the rep claimed, independent testing showed that only odor has been inherited and rest of the beneficial aspects of manure have not been found in Vista.
by Anonymous Coward
on Friday September 28 2007, @12:51PM (#20785125)
"Extends XP's Life"
If I were a Windows user, this language would make me sick to my stomach. This is the reason I use GNU software: the "life" of that software is as long as somebody wants to use it. RMS isn't sitting in the offices of the FSF waiting to pull the plug on Linux 2.6 so that people have to buy Linux 2.8; (this might upset Linus a little bit too). Moreover, even "dead" GNU programs can come back to life, if somebody is willing to dig up the body and run it through the compile-o-matic.
If the market wants Windows XP, let them buy it until there isn't enough plastic left on Earth to mint another CD. Software can't "die" unless a very greedy vendor decides to murder it in cold blood. "Extends XP's Life" should be rewritten "Decides Not to Shank XP/XP Users".
Microsoft is playing chicken [wikipedia.org] with the free market, and they are going to lose.
This does not affect their income, but it affects their stock price. Financially I think you might be right. They keep selling licenses. This is a HUGE failure for MS management. Essentially, they spent countless millions on something that is going nowhere and their revenue stream continues to come from a product that has already been established. Since the stock market is forward looking, this completely shakes investor confidence that MS management knows their head from their arse. I honestly don't kn
Microsoft representative sought to downplay the extension, stating 'We wouldn't term it strong, we would describe this as accommodating a certain element who needs more time.'
Hmm...
Journalist: "Did Vista fail?" Microsoft Representative: "I wouldn't say it failed. I'd say it successfully failed in succeeding to fail in successful failure." Journalist: "Oh.. right, exactly what I had in mind!"
It's just so transparent when companies spin things, it hurts. And you know behind the curtains they shout and curse and spit, and say things like this:
"I am not sure how the company lost sight of what matters to our customers (both business and home) [..] our teams lost sight of what bug-free means, what resilience means, what full scenarios mean, what security means, what performance means, [..] I see lots of random features and some great vision, but that doesn't translate into great products. I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft."
And, as you know, this is an actual quote from Jim Allchin's private email to Gates and Ballmer. Regarding Vista. Not quite like their public claims of vicious unstoppable wildfire Vista success, now, is it.
Those of us who support Linux, I stated on the last article like this, the slower adoption of Vista is, the more time it buys Windows users. So consider this. What happens if we get a "Golden" Wine that can run some killer Windows App XP can, Vista can't. All the sudden you have a small targeted dent in MS's market share that makes a big dent.
What are some ways the calculating Linux user can use this to further undermine MS?
Why should a product that's designed to be used in a production environment receive an end-of-life? Shouldn't they have various platforms with ongoing support for different end-use? For example, companies have built software on Windows XP that refuse to work on later versions, or later versions have different properties (i.e. certain APIs no longer supported, 3rd party companion software that won't run on the new OS, different security model imposes different behaviour in the new OS, different licensing schemes not compatible with the software)... if MS cares about its developers that have invested in the platform they put out, wouldn't they keep supporting them? How could developers choose to program for a platform that's essentially a moving target that they can never lock down, and that they have to keep paying MS to use their own software, and even make changes to their software to accomodate MS's changes in their OS? Plus, every time you want to sell your solution to a customer, you have to charge them for MS's products as well. If you have software that requires Windows and Office, and you sell it to someone, you have to sell them Office and Windows and whatever other applications along with it, promoting MS's product, or at least putting your customers in the same position that MS is putting you in as a developer. Except that MS's support and guarantees are limited by their EULA. Isn't programming on Windows like an endless chase? Does it pay off in any way?
Well, the Windows API hasn't really been a "moving target" for quite a while. Since Windows NT. Yeah, things have been added, but if you followed the rules, a 32-bit app written in 1995 should work just fine on Vista. Games being the exception. The thing is, MANY developers, especially the "in-house" developers at a lot of businesses, haven't exactly been following the rules. Microsoft has been tolerant of that for a long time, but with Vista, they are finally saying "Look. You HAVE to use Win32 and follow a
I work in an organisation who has a Microsoft Enterprise Agreement license so on Vista's launch I installed Vista Enterprise on a pretty crappy work PC (Dell GX240) and Vista Ultimate on my home PC (self made Athlon XP 2000+) to see what it was like and I still use them daily.
And I have had no problems with instability and apart from an obscure Belkin USB IrDa device I have had no problems getting other devices to work, either with Vista drivers or XP Drivers and I find it stable and fast, apart for copying files which is a dog.
At this point you may be thinking "Ah, he thinks Vista is great", but you'd be wrong.
I quite like Aero, I love the way Vista Ultimate talks to my XBOX 360, but I'm left thinking "Is that it?" There is nothing there worth the £350 Microsoft is asking for the full version, asking that is taking the piss. The basic version I think is £100.. is it worth that.. even then probably not.
While we have no plans to roll out Vista at work at the moment, we said to any of the IT support staff they could install it if they liked on their PCs/Laptops and only 2 of us (including me) did it out of 120 people.
It seems no-one is really interested or cares about Vista.
Vista was designed for the movie industry, but Microsoft forgot that the movie industry is not buying vista, the customers have to.
Speaking of lost focus.
Charge people buying the internet FUD on Vista for XP today..... and then charge them again a year later when they have to upgrade to Vista!
Not really. Most systems are being bought w/ Vista and a "downgrade" to XP. For the price of Vista, you get Vista and XP. All you need to do is install Vista if they ever get enough bugs out of it for you to use it.
If Micro$oft put out good products, a lot of us would be out of a job!;->
Vista brings many new things to the table, especially in terms of increased usability. Some people need more time to adapt and move to the new OS, and Microsoft listened to them.
Yeah, plugging in your USB thumb drive and finding out the helper software won't run on Vista is really increased usability. Finding out that your two year old scanner won't work for lack of drivers is increased usability.
Hmmm.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
eve-ry-one
pronoun
Every person; everybody.
Re:Hmmm.... (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
5 Months? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:5 Months? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Now, when I browse the Slashdot archives trying to find stories where somebody mistakenly thought something what January 1 when it actually was not, this one will come up.
Re:5 Months? (Score:5, Funny)
Jan 1 -> July 1 is 6 months.
Jan 1 -> June 30 is, truncated to an integer number of months, 5 months.
Parent
Re:5 Months? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:5 Months? (Score:5, Funny)
* I used Excel to do this math, and checked it with a virtual slide rule.
Parent
5 months? (Score:5, Funny)
RTFA ... it's 5 months from Jan 31 (Score:3, Informative)
RTFA ... it's 5 months from Jan 31 to June 30.
Defeated by themselves... (Score:5, Funny)
Sooner or later this was gonna happen.
Re:Defeated by themselves... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Defeated by themselves... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Defeated by themselves... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Vista SP1 Delayed (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the way I read this. (Score:3, Insightful)
You'll see a lot of other interpretations on Slashdot, but I just don't see them bearing out for most businesses or in the non-Slashdot world in general.
Re:Boiling frog (Score:5, Funny)
Why would you want to jump out of the Microsoft love-pot? It's nice and warm. Come join us. We can be the best of friends.
One of us! One of us!
Parent
Activation servers? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Activation servers? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Activation servers? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Activation servers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Activation servers? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
XP Works (Score:5, Insightful)
XP Sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:XP Works (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, I think this is pretty fortuitous for Microsoft, despite the fact that it calls attention to Vista's lack of popularity. Computer stores around here are using the fact that they "still" sell computers with XP as a sales tool, and the support extension is a pretty nice method of keeping everyone happy and quiet while Microsoft does whatever they do to Vista to make it a reasonable upgrade. Although I've not used Vista beyond a few tries in the store and a minute or two at a friend's house, it seems from popular opinion (beyond the completely unsurprising groupthink here at Slashdot) that Vista was born prematurely, and Microsoft is fortunate to have a historical product like XP they can use as a tool of placation until the new one is what it always should have been.
XP *is* really good, and Microsoft is pretty lucky that Vista didn't come after, say, Windows 98 or ME, because those are not something they'd want to fall back upon in a situation like this. I guess the old saying is true -- business is as much about timing and luck as it is about skill.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
XP is *not* really good, it is merely good *enough*.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Indications, Clarifications, Underestimations (Score:3, Funny)
Pressed for clarification, the Microsoft representative continued:
Q: "Would you term the market's adoption of Vista as slow?"
A: "We wouldn't term it slow, we would describe it as approaching that of a sloth on valium."
Why the uptake is slow (Score:5, Informative)
1. It needs a lot more RAM. Or atleast people seem to think so.
2. People are waiting for it to "settle down" - probably until Service Pack 1 is released.
3. There is a lot of confusion about different Vista [diffen.com] versions [microsoft.com].
There is also the issue of some drivers not being available [sony.com]. But things will settle down soon enough. One year is not that long of a timeframe to wean marketshare away from one operating system monopoly to another.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You have to scroll down to the bottom to read about the other versions.
Re:Why the uptake is slow (Score:4, Funny)
(aka, obligatory Penny Arcade post)
Parent
Good Decision (Score:3, Insightful)
...but it was inevitable. Think about it: while Windows Vista is a great operating system and a recommended upgrade from Windows XP, it has been shown all too many times that there are still growing pains evident with it. There are many drivers that are still being tested and revised due to vastly new frameworks implemented by Microsoft (Creative's situation immediately comes to mind, even though it's thankfully been resolved). Furthermore, there are many software packages that have or will definitely have compatibility issues with Vista (financial applications are a huge example of this, since they tend to be much more conservative. I'm not including the super-large firms that absolutely need to continue relying on extremely antiquated software).
While officially removing Windows XP support will be mostly transparent to end users, developers will be forced to migrate all of their time and energy to a new operating system with a lot of changes under the hood instead of spending time steadily updating current software while researching and testing compatible Vista software as well. Many IT managers and decision-makers will have to devote much more energy to supporting Vista faster, which can result in less-than-stellar results (it's corporate habit to accept a new operating system much later than their introduction).
I think this is a good way for Microsoft to ensure that they keep the risks of transition as minimal as possible. Vista migration will undoubtedly happen, but it's best that it is slow and exceptional rather than rapid and disappointing (as many users are quickly finding out).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
A couple of years ago, I started pushing for OpenOffice, instead of MS Office at my old company. Not even switching whole hod to Linux, just going to OOo. Did a whole usability analysis, cost structure, retraining, conversion of existing tools, all that crap. This was a $100M division of a 1/2 billion dollar company.
The reason it got shot down? All our clients/customers were on MS Office, and
Asked what he says to (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Though that is what the rep claimed, independent testing showed that only odor has been inherited and rest of the beneficial aspects of manure have not been found in Vista.
notevenitsmother (Score:4, Funny)
Microsoft playing Chicken (Score:5, Insightful)
If I were a Windows user, this language would make me sick to my stomach. This is the reason I use GNU software: the "life" of that software is as long as somebody wants to use it. RMS isn't sitting in the offices of the FSF waiting to pull the plug on Linux 2.6 so that people have to buy Linux 2.8; (this might upset Linus a little bit too). Moreover, even "dead" GNU programs can come back to life, if somebody is willing to dig up the body and run it through the compile-o-matic.
If the market wants Windows XP, let them buy it until there isn't enough plastic left on Earth to mint another CD. Software can't "die" unless a very greedy vendor decides to murder it in cold blood. "Extends XP's Life" should be rewritten "Decides Not to Shank XP/XP Users".
Microsoft is playing chicken [wikipedia.org] with the free market, and they are going to lose.
OK by MS? (Score:4, Insightful)
These people are still buying a MS Windows license. Maybe they'll even buy an upgrade to Vista later.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
This does not affect their income, but it affects their stock price.
Financially I think you might be right. They keep selling licenses. This is a HUGE failure for MS management. Essentially, they spent countless millions on something that is going nowhere and their revenue stream continues to come from a product that has already been established. Since the stock market is forward looking, this completely shakes investor confidence that MS management knows their head from their arse. I honestly don't kn
I love PR speak (Score:4, Interesting)
Hmm...
Journalist: "Did Vista fail?"
Microsoft Representative: "I wouldn't say it failed. I'd say it successfully failed in succeeding to fail in successful failure."
Journalist: "Oh.. right, exactly what I had in mind!"
It's just so transparent when companies spin things, it hurts. And you know behind the curtains they shout and curse and spit, and say things like this:
"I am not sure how the company lost sight of what matters to our customers (both business and home) [..] our teams lost sight of what bug-free means, what resilience means, what full scenarios mean, what security means, what performance means, [..] I see lots of random features and some great vision, but that doesn't translate into great products. I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft."
And, as you know, this is an actual quote from Jim Allchin's private email to Gates and Ballmer. Regarding Vista. Not quite like their public claims of vicious unstoppable wildfire Vista success, now, is it.
Can Linux Users make that 6 months count? (Score:3, Insightful)
What are some ways the calculating Linux user can use this to further undermine MS?
I don't get it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The thing is, MANY developers, especially the "in-house" developers at a lot of businesses, haven't exactly been following the rules. Microsoft has been tolerant of that for a long time, but with Vista, they are finally saying "Look. You HAVE to use Win32 and follow a
Been running Vista since launch with no problems (Score:5, Interesting)
And I have had no problems with instability and apart from an obscure Belkin USB IrDa device I have had no problems getting other devices to work, either with Vista drivers or XP Drivers and I find it stable and fast, apart for copying files which is a dog.
At this point you may be thinking "Ah, he thinks Vista is great", but you'd be wrong. I quite like Aero, I love the way Vista Ultimate talks to my XBOX 360, but I'm left thinking "Is that it?" There is nothing there worth the £350 Microsoft is asking for the full version, asking that is taking the piss. The basic version I think is £100.. is it worth that.. even then probably not.
While we have no plans to roll out Vista at work at the moment, we said to any of the IT support staff they could install it if they liked on their PCs/Laptops and only 2 of us (including me) did it out of 120 people.
It seems no-one is really interested or cares about Vista.
Jonathan
~~~~~~~~
http://www.irvtheswerve.net/ [irvtheswerve.net]
Who cares (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Is this a PR guy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just say no to mandatory registration, dongles and other similar shenanigans.
This isn't even a "pro free software" or "anti commercial" thing. Not all
commercial software vendors choose to treat their customers like this.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not really. Most systems are being bought w/ Vista and a "downgrade" to XP. For the price of Vista, you get Vista and XP. All you need to do is install Vista if they ever get enough bugs out of it for you to use it.
If Micro$oft put out good products, a lot of us would be out of a job! ;->
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, plugging in your USB thumb drive and finding out the helper software won't run on Vista is really increased usability. Finding out that your two year old scanner won't work for lack of drivers is increased usability.