Verizon, Copper, Fiber, and the Truth

Alexander Graham Cracker writes "Starting last spring, reports began surfacing of Verizon routinely disabling copper as it installed its fiber-based FiOS service. We discussed the issue here a couple of times. In my experience, every time Verizon has installed FiOS at a friend's house, they have insisted they have to cut off the copper and move the POTS to the fiber. By doing so, they block anyone else such as COVAD or Cavalier from renting the copper for competitive access. Sources report that today, at a hearing of the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet, Verizon executive VP Thomas Tauke denied ever doing that. (The transcript should be up in a day or so. The AP coverage does not mention this detail.) I wonder if Rep. Markey's staff is interested in hearing from people who experienced Verizon disabling copper, and without notice?"

New twist on RTFA...

[Otter]

Ummm, maybe it would have made sense to hold off on this story until it's found to be true, instead of telling us that "sources report" something that's not in the linked article? Far be it from me to doubt Alexander Graham Cracker's "sources", but just on principle...

Not for me

[joe_cot]

They left my copper in, because it was too difficult to remove. However, even when he was trying to do so , I was well aware he was going to remove the copper.

I generally stick around when contractors are rewiring my house, but I suppose if you're not one of those people, it may come as a surprise. It's probably one of those things on the checklist of stuff to mention, and it doesn't happen sometimes. I've had friends get fiber, be told they're removing the copper, asked them to not remove it, and there were no problems.

Also, I had a bird's nest of copper in my house. I got FiOS so my phone and internet would be over a clear digital connection, and it hasn't gone down since the day it went in (early this summer). I could care less about the speed.

Re:Not really surprised

[bigdady92]

No they can't. Verizon laid the line, it's not a public utility like cable at all. It's VZ property, there can be no other competitors. AT&T won't let VZ near their fibre and vice versa.

Re:Happened to me

[Shimmer]

I assume you're joking, but in case you're not: The phone company has a separate power source that operates even when the consumer power lines are down. Sending this electricity through copper lines to operate household phones works fine. But glass fiber is not quite as electrically conductive.

Re:Wait, I'm confused -- who started the mess?

[chill]

It is cost prohibitive. You claim that their customers would be loyal for years and years, but it would be trivial for Verizon to say "Three months free for anyone who switches from Covad!" and crush them.

The only reason Verizon and AT&T can afford it is because of the decades spent as a government granted monopolist and the wealth that generated. They only want to prevent competition from following the path they themselves trod.

Happened to Me Too!

[queenb**ch]

We had FIOSS put in because the 7 MB/sec line was faster and cheaper than the T-1. They not only cut our copper, but they dug up and removed most of the copper cabling from the neighborhood. They said that with the price of copper, it would be recycled and it would keep it from being stolen since it wasn't being used anymore. It sounded suspicious to me, but I stood in what was then my front yard and watched them do it.

2 cents,

Queen B.

Mod parent up

[CallFinalClass]

I'm outta mod points... just when I need them...

Re:Happened to me

[Anonymous Coward]

When we had FiOS installed, they cut the copper cable TV wire, but left the copper POTS intact (which we use). In our case they only cut the last 5-6 feet of coax, leaving the wire itself in the ground. I believe it was the tech who installed our system who told me that they do it so that customers don't switch back to cable, after Verison installs the $1000-$2000 worth of equipment onto the house on their own dime.

Cheers.

Re:Are they cutting it at the demarcation point?

[Anonymous Coward]

They cut up to the demarcation point.
And install a new Fibre-Cu interface.
They also put an 8hr battery backup (for power outage) in your garage.

Re:Only on slashdot

[Psyberian]

All this is well and good. But for the thousands of CLECs, Competitive Local Exchange Carriers, they are out of luck. What Verizon and other incumbent carriers need is to be forced, because otherwise they won't, to sell dark fiber like they had to sell unbundled copper loops. Without this unbundled copper there would be no speakeasy or other non-bell dsl carriers.

Last spring?

[Spazmania]

spring, reports began surfacing of Verizon routinely disabling copper as it installed its fiber-based FiOS service

Last spring? I had FiOS installed in early to mid 2005 and the installer asked to remove my copper. At the time I hadn't yet cancelled my T1. But for that I've no doubt he'd have removed it.

The monopoly IS the problem.

[WindBourne]

the problem here, is that verizon is bringing in FIOS to those communities who allow them to change the twisted pair monopoly to a fiber monopoly WITH no competition from old twisted pair. So, there are only 2 choices to these homes (most all of the cable contracts do not require resellers be allowed). I am guessing that it will require a new president who is not part of the establishment (perhaps paul or obama) who will do the right thing as opposed to what brings their party more money.

Re:New twist on RTFA...

[oahazmatt]

When I have a friend who actually works for Verizon and claims that this happened, I tend to believe it. He's pretty ticked about it, because he didn't find out they disabled the copper until after the install.

Some Ideas are Worth Keeping, Some Not.

[Erris]

Fiber == Future. Copper == Past. This is the idea of capitalism, we want an even playing field for companies so that they can edge out the competition with better prices/ideas. Verizon is doing that, and quiet well.

If things really were free, you would be right. They are not and you are selling yourself out. It was a sin for government to grant Ma Bell a monopoly. To undo that sin, the public servitude must be liberated and the Bell holdings must be dissolved. The other answer is to have a completely public network that everyone can use. Any combination of the two will favor one company over the others and this is why US networks have gone from world supremacy to third rate status. Verizon is doing what they are doing so that others won't be able to serve you. When they are finished robbing you of choice they will take your freedom.

Re:Not really surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a political decision not a technical constraint. The Powell FCC ruled that they do not need to share the unregulated fiber; the 96 Telecom Act required they share the copper.

Re:Not really surprised

[Ambiguous Coward]

This is entirely my point...in many cases, it is NOT dependant on population density. It is dependant on whether or not they have to bother to compete. In my case, they don't. I either pay for their over-priced "service," or I'm stuck on 56k, dense population or not.

Which, again, is precisely what Verizon is attempting. Do not give these companies ANY good faith. They squandered that long ago. Given the chance, they will do as little as possible to make as much as possible. The vast majority of their revenue from your bill consists of the overhead cost of providing service, not the incremental upgrades. That is, if they charge you $40 to provide service, and $10 for each incremental upgrade, they would just as soon scrap the upgrades, charge the base cost for the base service, and just charge it to more people (and change their letterhead to read: "Made possible by a monopoly near you"). The only reason they offer the incremental upgrades is for competition.

-G

Covad's 15 Mbps offerings

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, they are explicitly trying to block Covad's ADSL2. Here's a link:

http://speakeasy.net/business/adsl2/ [speakeasy.net]

Notice that 15 Mbps is far better than what the Telco's are offering. ATT in particular, who will only give you 6 Mbps for Internet access, out of the 100 Mbps that their U-Verse lines are capabable of.

Also note that ADSL2 is only now just being rolled out to select areas, and is for business. Once competition heats up, the price will drop.

Sigh. I wish I had it now.

So yes, keep your copper lines.

Re:Happened to me

[ivan256]

The other part of that story is that the the phone cables are the lowest on the poles, so something hitting the lines has to take out the high-voltage power lines, the lower voltage power lines, and the cable TV lines before the phone service is knocked out. If something takes out the whole pole, your phone goes out too, even though the telco's CO has a big battery/generator to backup the phone power.

Re:Happened to Me Too!

[tlhIngan]

They not only cut our copper, but they dug up and removed most of the copper cabling from the neighborhood. They said that with the price of copper, it would be recycled and it would keep it from being stolen since it wasn't being used anymore.

I hope you got a rebate for the exchange of the copper on your next bill. :)

For anyone else, when this happens, tell them to leave the copper with you, so YOU can recycle it for a buck or two. :)

Except if it's on their side of the demarc box, it's their copper. If it's on your side, then yes, you have a say in it, since you own that copper. That's the sole reason why the demarc box exists - or even why it's called a demarc box. It tells you which wire belongs to whom.

natural monoply

[falconwolf]

And who told you that you can't allow a competitor to run a new cable to your property? It wasn't Verizon who made a regulation making them the sole provider -- it was your local and State government. Don't be mad at Verizon because your government is completely fraudulent and corrupt -- if you vote, kick everyone out on the next election, and keep doing it until someone removes the monopoly provisions.

Actually the best way to deal with a Natural Monopoly [wikipedia.org] like landlines [wikipedia.org] is to separate the infrastructure from services. Maybe instead of a business owning the infrastructure local governments, nonprofits, or business can own it but then they are required to allow open access. This is what's being done in northeastern Utah with a Broadband Utopia [ieee.org]. A group of communities in the area built the infrastructure and allows anyone to offer any services it is capable of. It could be internet access, phone service, "cable" tv, or any combination (Triple Play". How would you like a 30 megabit per second, mps, connection? That's what's available now however speeds could get to 100mps.

I'll add some more

[Anonymous Coward]

In my case, they cut from the demarc to the telephone pole (as the rest of the block is mostly Cu.
The Cu end of the Fibre-Cu interface plugged into the old plug in my demarc box.

So, the old demarc (aka telco box) had screws which coupled the wire to a RJ-45(?, I forget which standard is Ether and which one is telco, but you get the idea) male plug. This male plug then went into a 1st female plug in the telco box. My house wiring terminated as a male RJ-45 plug which went into a 2nd female plug in the telco box. There is some switch which only connects the 1st & 2nd plug when the box is closed (as I found out when re-wiring the house and testing my new phone wires).

The Fibre-Cu interface has a male Cu RJ-45 that then plugs into the 1st female plug in the telco box.

Ideally, they would place the back-up supply directly across the wall from the Fibre-Cu interface (think sandwich with the wall in the middle). They punch a hole through the wall for the cord for the back-up to the Fibre-Cu. Once again, ideally all of this would be in your garage.
In my 1935 no-garage house, we had to do some finagling (which I directed).

And, yes they told me ahead of time that they were cutting the Cu.

Re:Happened to Me Too!

[Dun Malg]

But *do* they own it? They're bringing in a new service. If Verizon isn't the one who laid down the copper originally, I'm not sure it's Verizon's to pull out.

The copper belongs to whomever operates the system. That's what makes them your Incumbent Local Exchange Carrier. Access to their infrastructure is what they sell. In your case, it belongs to Verizon. It's 99.999% likely that it was also installed by Verizon (or rather, by GTE or Bell Atlantic before they merged) as it's almost unheard of for an area to change ILECs.

Re:The monopoly IS the problem.

[Belacgod]

Don't be fooled-Obama's a great guy, but he's a Chicago machine politician. He's as much a part of the Establishment as anyone.

Re:Not really surprised

[teebob21]

I wonder if a land owner could make a case to receive rent from Verizon of putting private property (fiber) into the public right-of-way access across the his land. I'd imagine that many lawyers would jump at the chance to try for a suit that would be that widespread and lucrative.

Not any lawyers worth their salt, I'd imagine. Public easements are declared explicitly in property deeds and titles. They are a known burden (legal term, not in the typical sense of the word) when the owner bought the property, and any objections must be made and satisfied prior to sale. Now, if Verizon or Quest or Comcast were to install a feeder line or a customer drop through my property and outside the easement without permission, you would have the makings of a civil suit. However, rather than pay me rent into perpetuity, the operators would likely relocate the line into the easement, and settle for the reasonable cost of damage to the lawn.

Any further legal action (on the basis of an easement violation) would be frivolous and likely get dismissed from court.

Not here

[s2jcpete]

I had fios installed 2 months ago in Richmond, VA. I read the original article on slashdot, and asked the fios tech about cutting the copper. He said they didn't do that because there was a 30 day cancel policy and it would be to expensive to come back out. I still have a copper phone line, and fios at the same time. It causes issues for my billing though because they are "mixed media" and I don't get a bundle package.

Re:Happened to me

[fahrbot-bot]

They also put a battery in my basement to give me eight hours of phone service during a power outage.

I hope they told you that when the battery needs to be replaced, you'll have to pay for the new one... It's in the fine print. Enjoy.