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Comcast Confirmed as Discriminating Against FileSharing Traffic 532

An anonymous reader writes "Comcast has been singled out as discriminating against filesharing traffic in quantitative tests conducted by the Associated Press. MSNBC's coverage of the discovery is quite even-handed. The site notes that while illegal content trading is a common use of the technology, Bittorrent is emerging as an effective medium for transferring 'weighty' legal content as well. 'Comcast's technology kicks in, though not consistently, when one BitTorrent user attempts to share a complete file with another user. Each PC gets a message invisible to the user that looks like it comes from the other computer, telling it to stop communicating. But neither message originated from the other computer -- it comes from Comcast.'" This is confirmation of anecdotal evidence presented by Comcast users back in August.
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Comcast Confirmed as Discriminating Against FileSharing Traffic

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  • Encrypt Everything (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Snowgen ( 586732 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:26AM (#21042323) Homepage
    They're basically doing this with a "man in the middle" attack by sending false messages to both parties in the communication, pretending to be the other. This is why all net traffic needs to be encrypted and signed.
  • World of Warcraft (Score:5, Insightful)

    by whisper_jeff ( 680366 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:28AM (#21042349)
    If one wishes to find a legitimate example of bittorrent sharing of legitimate files, one need look no further than the largest MMORPG on the market - World of Warcraft. Patches are automatically (assuming the user doesn't disable the feature) downloaded using bittorrent. And Blizzard is more than aware of and approving of this, given that they programmed the feature. Needless to say, I think any internet service provider who disrupts a consumer's legitimate use of their internet connection is a service provider that doesn't deserve the consumer's money...
  • by fz00 ( 466988 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:30AM (#21042377) Homepage
    After Comcast loses all their customers to DSL, will they complain about [whatever DSL company]'s unfair monopoly advantage?
  • Title Inapt (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jkabbe ( 631234 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:30AM (#21042393)
    When I read the words "discriminating against" I assumed that Comcast was simply giving higher priority to non-bittorrent traffic. Given what they are doing, I think "interfering with" would be better language. This isn't just a passive downgrading. This is active blocking.
  • LOL (Score:3, Insightful)

    by zoomshorts ( 137587 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:33AM (#21042455)
    But we now have the "Hammer" method. Boycott the bastards, no matter what the cost.
    Then when the people we use as an alternative to Comcast start to mess with us, just
    DROP them too.

    Simple market response.
  • Comcast... Where? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kainaw ( 676073 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:34AM (#21042457) Homepage Journal
    Comcast is in many different cities - each office running independently of all others. Which offices are blocking bittorrent? I use it all the time, on Comcast, without any trouble. I have more issues at work (with traffic shaping junk) than Comcast. So, I do not see how this is a company-wide problem. It may be something only used in problematic areas.
  • Re:Yea, right (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:35AM (#21042495)
    It's not the legality that Comcast takes issue with, it's the use of bandwidth. You're not supposed to actually use the bandwidth you buy, you see.
  • by jimicus ( 737525 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:51AM (#21042857)
    A technical defense is to block RST packets. Probably not hard to do under Linux, and likely trivial.

    Also probably very silly to do. And won't work unless both ends of the communication are doing it.
  • Re:Common carrier (Score:4, Insightful)

    by moderatorrater ( 1095745 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:52AM (#21042879)
    Yes, but sending fraudulent messages could be against the law, which is what they're doing here.
  • by headbulb ( 534102 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:53AM (#21042911)
    All net traffic? Why? That isn't addressing the original issue of the carrier messing with packets it shouldn't.

    Instead if all traffic being encrypted along with taking lots of otherwise unused cpu and perhaps Bandwidth. Lists of ip address that are suspect will have their packets dropped at random instead.

    The fight isn't on any technical means, it's more on a political means.

    So in the end, encryption while a good technical work around. Is escalating the fight. This isn't what we should be fighting for, we should be fighting for common carrier status, and for the people to have more rights then corporations.

    If a corporation isn't able to get customers without coercing people into it. Then that corp isn't serving the people as it should and shouldn't be propped up. (other words they need to change their business modal)

    Lets make this a I want my rights back instead of a fine I will just encrypt my traffic fight.

  • by quantum bit ( 225091 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:57AM (#21043007) Journal

    A technical defense is to block RST packets. Probably not hard to do under Linux, and likely trivial.
    Sure you could modify the source to ignore the RST flag, but that would probably completely hose your networking, since it's sort of an integral part of TCP/IP functioning. Sometimes the packet with FIN set does get lost.

    I guess it might work for a while until you ran out of memory for tracking state of all the connections that never close. :D
  • Re:Encryption (Score:3, Insightful)

    by CodeBuster ( 516420 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @11:58AM (#21043021)
    Comcast and the others who engage in packet shaping are only hastening the day when encrypted protocols protected by strong encryption (AES probably) are commonplace. Perhaps they realize this and are using the packet shapers as a stop-gap measure while they upgrade their infrastructure to handle the increased loads, but I doubt it.
  • Re:Common carrier (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Frosty Piss ( 770223 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @12:04PM (#21043135)

    Yes but even as a land lord there are strong restrictions on your ability to evict people. It can take weeks or months after a violation is identified.
    Look, the landlord analogy doesn't apply, Interweb access isn't the same at all. Comcast sells a consumer service over its own equipment which is not a "common carrier". It's not a house. You're not just "sitting" on their service. There is a contract. Part of the contract allows Comcast to restrict ("throttle") p2p if they want. Maybe it's at the request of media providers, maybe because of the way cable networks function, it actually does degrade the service. It doesn't matter, Comcast can turn it off completely if they want. It's life.
  • Re:Against the TOS (Score:1, Insightful)

    by zsouthboy ( 1136757 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @12:11PM (#21043257)
    Yeah, the "word" server can arbitrarily be applied to anything.

    I'm not allowed to send emails anymore - I'm "serving" them to an SMTP server.
  • Re:LOL (Score:5, Insightful)

    by glindsey ( 73730 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @12:18PM (#21043377)

    But we now have the "Hammer" method. Boycott the bastards, no matter what the cost.
    Then when the people we use as an alternative to Comcast start to mess with us, just
    DROP them too.
    What a great idea! Okay, let me see, what's my alternative to Comcast? I know, DSL! Oh, wait, my house is too far from the CO, and AT&T isn't interested in expanding service in our location. Okay then, I'll go to FiOS! Oh, wait, it isn't available in my state. Alright, how about a satellite service? What's that? Half-second lag times? Well, that just about destroys any gaming or VoIP links, and costs a ridiculous amount in both startup and monthly costs, so that's out... Wireless? Nope, nothing in our area.

    My choices are literally dial-up, Comcast, or nothing. And dial-up and nothing aren't really options because I often have to VPN into my office from home.

    Ah yes, simple market response. I can choose any broadband provider I want, as long as it's Comcast.
  • Re:Yea, right (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Impy the Impiuos Imp ( 442658 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @12:19PM (#21043395) Journal
    In their (partial) defense, their business model is probably something like:

    - Offer a huge bandwidth that most people won't use

    - Some will use it, costing us more than we charge, but that's overwhelmed by increased business by people who want the bandwidth from the ad while not actually using it

    But then this happens:

    - Whoops! File sharing is a Killer App that many people are using.

    - On average we are now losing money.

    Of course, the proper course of action is to alter their contracts (after the current ones expire) to charge more money for more use, perhaps in various rates. Yes, that will drive people to other companies who don't do this...who will also lose money.

    Let the market figure it out.

    Anyway, wouldn't generating fake signals to alter the operation of your applications be illegal? That's above and beyond throttling or blocking (gray enough as it is.)
  • Re:Against the TOS (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19, 2007 @12:22PM (#21043453)
    Server / client is an arbitrary distinction and not part of the TCP/UDP/ICMP/IP protocol (which is what the Internet is). Therefore prohibiting running a "server" means that Comcast is only supporting part of the protocol suite, and therefore cannot call it "Internet access". In other words, this would be fraud (false advertising).

    It doesn't matter what the TOS are, because a TOS can't supersede the law.
  • by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @12:24PM (#21043481)
    Your idea would be terribly damaging for the Internet. Innovators need to be able to provide online services without individually registering themselves with every ISP on the planet. Allowing this would make ISPs the gatekeepers and judges of the Internet, and I don't want that.
  • Re:Encryption (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ZeroFactorial ( 1025676 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @12:43PM (#21043809)
    Given the nature of the "man-in-the-middle" approach they've taken here, it won't be long before they try to foil the encryption, too.

    That's the entire premise of a man-in-the-middle attack - give both sides false keys, but hang onto the false keys and the real keys yourself, then encrypt/decrypt accordingly with appropriate keys in each direction to keep them oblivious to your presence.

    Taking a stance like "well at least we still have encryption," rather than fighting for your rights is extremely dangerous. People keep saying "they aren't a common carrier, so they're within their rights."

    What the hell? When is it within a carrier's rights to WILLFULLY LIE ABOUT OR MODIFY the correspondence or transmission they've been entrusted to carry?
    If the US postal service opened your mail and scribbled out sections of your letters, would you still feel so copacetic about things? I know I wouldn't....

    This is a step towards being subjugated exactly like China.
    Step 1) Comcast imposes "totally legal" restrictions on internet traffic.
    Step 2) United States Government makes deal with Comcast to be sole provider for govt networks.
    Step 3) Congress passes legislation to help put other providers out of business.
    Step 4) Comcast becomes primary provider in US.
    Step 5) Government officials give kickbacks to Comcast to regulate "perfectly legally" what internet traffic is allowed to pass.
    Step 6) The US is adopted by a loving family, with an older brother named communist China.

    Okay, so it's a stretch.... but this IS the beginning of a violation of rights. There is no shortage of evidence that the constitution was created to protect people from violations such as this, EVEN if you've agreed to it!

    Why do you think we don't allowed indentured servitude anymore? It was a contract that was entered into willfully..... The law is there to PROTECT people from jackass people/companies like Comcast who try to decide that it's within their rights to violate peoples' rights, just because the law says they can.

    To quote the declaration of independence.

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
    WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. Whether we like it or not - those elected officials were picked BY us from AMONG us. If we are too stupid to choose people who will do something about it (and if we are unwilling to run for office ourselves) then we are consenting to whatever happens!

    This is exactly a situation where if what Comcast is doing is "legal" it's time to enact some legislation to ensure that this kind of completely unethical behavior (which SHOULD be illegal) never happens again.

    The law is(read: SHOULD BE) there to protect you and me, not big business. We have a congress, and not a king, for just this sort of situation.

    Help me Obi-wan Kenobi(read: voters of the USA). You're my only hope.
  • by Mad Dog Manley ( 93208 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @12:50PM (#21043933)
    If I remember correctly, Comcast says that something like 1% of the user base causes 15% of the bandwidth, etc. Therefore, they throttle the thing that takes up the most bandwidth (torrents), in the name of helping out all the other users.

    Correction... they throttle in order to get the 15% back and resell it to more users, without having to upgrade existing infrastructure.
  • Re:you know ... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by immcintosh ( 1089551 ) <slashdot@ianmcin ... .org minus punct> on Friday October 19, 2007 @12:53PM (#21043999) Homepage
    Except for the fact that vast tracts of the good ol' US are exactly like he's describing. As soon as you move out of a major metropolitan area, your options start to get extremely limited.
  • Re:LOL (Score:2, Insightful)

    by doctrbl ( 306815 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @01:12PM (#21044335)
    And the response from free-marketeers: start your own ISP, provide the services that you want, and watch the money roll in!

    This of course ignores the reality of barriers to entry, both on the business side (in the way of fees required to operate, etc), and on the personal side (I'd rather not quit my job in order to be an ISP startup, just because Comcast is awful).

  • Re:LOL (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jythie ( 914043 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @01:17PM (#21044435)
    Or in cases like this, when there is no one else to go to.

    Comcast thrives in broadband because in many regions it is your only choice. You can't get alternative cable modem ISPs and DLS is not always available. Market forces are unlikly to effect them much.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19, 2007 @01:33PM (#21044745)
    A protocol based on UDP, with every packet encrypted (or at least signed!) so the endpoints can ignore packets which have been inserted/tampered with by any middle-men.
  • Re:Common carrier (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Zenaku ( 821866 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @01:34PM (#21044771)
    Having my choice of two equally horrid alternatives somehow gives me no comfort.

    As I mentioned, DSL is an option here. Qwest owns the lines. And I already employed the suggested vote-with-your-dollars strategy because they suck. So what would you have me do? Keep switching back and forth between them every month? And by the way, DSL requires doing business with Qwest because they own the phone lines, so the dial-up option doesn't change anything.

    My point is that you act as though its a free and open market and gee-golly if someone doesn't like how they do business we can just find another provider -- and that's bull. Two providers does not add up to consumer freedom of choice. It's not helpful to excuse a company's bad policies by noting that one can "freely choose" equivalent or worse options. You're saying that because Comcast is still the more palatable of two rotten providers, whatever level of service they provide must be okay then, right?

    Great. And if I don't like eating dirt, I can always eat shit instead or just go hungry. Lucky me.
  • by thejynxed ( 831517 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @02:02PM (#21045309)
    IPTables

    #!/bin/sh
    #Replace 6883 with you BT port
    BT_PORT=6883

    #Flush the filters
    iptables -F

    #Apply new filters
    iptables -A INPUT -i lo -j ACCEPT
    #Comcast BitTorrent seeding block workaround
    iptables -A INPUT -p tcp --dport $BT_PORT --tcp-flags RST RST -j DROP
    iptables -A INPUT -m state --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT
    #BitTorrent
    iptables -A INPUT -m state --state NEW -m tcp -p tcp --dport $BT_PORT -j ACCEPT
    iptables -A INPUT -m state --state NEW -m udp -p udp --dport $BT_PORT -j ACCEPT
    iptables -A INPUT -j REJECT --reject-with icmp-host-prohibited
    IPFW

    #Replace bt port with your actual port number
    ipfw add deny tcp from any to any {bt port} in tcpflags rst

  • by nuzak ( 959558 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @02:49PM (#21046049) Journal
    > how exactly is WoW supposed to open up ports on my router?

    It's called UPnP. Most home routers speak it, and most decent BT clients use it. It's convenient, and not really a security risk if your router's smart enough to not enable it on the WAN interface. Sadly, some actually do.
  • Re:Yea, right (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Arterion ( 941661 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @05:15PM (#21048413)
    - On average we are now losing money.

    This is a common misconception some people seem to have. Not following an avenue or course of action that would result in increased profits is NOT THE SAME as losing money. It's making less money. Losing money would be having to spend more than you made, and we both know that's not what's happening. It's a typical "investor class" mentality to look at not making money the same as actually losing money. There's something to be said for making a little less money, but also offering a better service. Human decency is what I'd call it. Poor business sense might be what someone else calls it. Go figure.
  • Re:ha (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Agripa ( 139780 ) on Friday October 19, 2007 @08:30PM (#21051031)
    Maybe. One thing I am certain about however is that Comcast is courting a tragedy of the commons. As more high volume internet traffic has to resort to obfuscation, it will become more difficult to apply accurate traffic shaping where it is really useful. What do you do when everything looks like IPSEC and SSL or - God forbid - streaming video?

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