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KDE and KOffice Rebuke OOXML, GNOME Dithers 398

Posted by Zonk
from the ooffice-politics dept.
Peter writes "Free Software Foundation president Richard Stallman and ITWire have praised KDE and KOffice developers for taking a principled stand against OOXML, while raising serious concerns about the GNOME Foundation's decision to give credibility to Microsoft's broken format. This comes on the heels of GNOME co-founder Miguel de Icaza's depiction of OOXML as a 'superb standard', and GNOME Foundation director Quim Gil's stonewalling of the patent-free Ogg Vorbis / Theora format on behalf of Nokia. Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?"
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KDE and KOffice Rebuke OOXML, GNOME Dithers

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  • by nofrak (889021) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:27PM (#21656871) Homepage
    is to constantly fight about it amongst ourselves. That'll do the trick.
    • by phasm42 (588479) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:34PM (#21657005)

      Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?
      Found out on the next exciting episode of Desktop Drama!
    • ...if we didn't?

      Especially on an issue where it really does matter.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      This isn't about open source, this is about Free Software.

      I will follow Stallman.
    • Well, these are serious questions that we need to ask, and because they are so important, you can't expect everyone to immediately agree. It is better that we are debating the question, rather than simply following what one man has to say (regardless of the fact that I agree with what he has to say, it is still good to debate it).
    • by Znork (31774)
      "is to constantly fight about it amongst ourselves."

      It's called competition. And evolution.

      And yes, in the long term, it actually will do the trick.

      The free software community, through dissent and conflict, becomes infinitely adaptable to any and all niches. Compare with monolithic entities like Microsoft with much stronger direction; when they decide to go down a number of dead ends they end up with products like Vista, with no fallbacks, unable to fill new niches like the low-end sub $200 pc's.

      I'll take d
    • by Grishnakh (216268) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @03:29PM (#21660533)
      The problem is that what you characterize as "infighting" isn't really. Let me draw an analogy.

      Suppose you have a sports team, let's say football (it doesn't matter which type). We have a game between team A and Team B. Team A is pretty decently organized, and works fairly well together. Team B has some problems, however: one player is constantly starting fights with other players on his team, and frequently recruits others on the team to his faction to help in his fights with the other factions. Consequently, the team does very poorly in the competition because they're always "infighting". But then it's discovered that that one fight-starting player is actually being paid, under the table, by Team A just to stir up trouble on his team!!! So is it really infighting? I'd call it "sabotage" instead.

      This is exactly what's happening with open-source, specifically with GNOME and Miguel de Icaza. He's really an agent for Microsoft, in some way. It's not clear yet whether he's actually being paid off by them, or if he's just a willing stooge who loves them so much that he's lost his grip on reality. It doesn't matter either way, though, because the effect is the same: it factionalizes open-source and creates problems, helping MS.

      Personally, I think open-source projects need to cut him off altogether. When you have gangrene in one of your limbs, you amputate it before it spreads. If GNOME isn't willing to throw him out, then GNU needs to drop support for GNOME, and all other open-source projects do too. They need to stop the cancer before it spreads.
    • by WebCowboy (196209) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @08:58PM (#21665373)
      Miguel may have been a founder of the GNOME project, but he is not even on the GNOME foundation board anymore. His opinion matters no more than that of anyone else who contributes code to GNOME. Though he has written some excellent software his baffling statements probably with respect to OOXML will not likely be taken seriously.

      RMS is worried about compromising on principles of Free software by putting efforts into making software that reads or writes this technically and philosophically nasty format. Since when has AVOIDING interoperability furthered the spread of Free software? Linus has yielded to pragmatism many times in the past (using BitKeeper for example, and being cautious about GPL3) whereas RMS remains steadfastly rigid in his ideals at all levels. RMS' stance is admirable, but look at where the Linux kernel is...then look at how far the HURD has come in comparison. Perhaps some pragmatism isn't always a bad thing?

      Now, as far as compromising "principle" with the pragmatic decision to work on making GNOME read the OOXML format, where exactly is this a more serious concern than with countless other interoperability projects? What about the work that went into making NTFS mountable in Linux? What about the Samba project? What about the ability of OpenOffice, KOffice, AbiWord, GNUMeric, etc. to at least partially support Microsoft's legacy binary file formats already? Where do we draw the "principled" line here? Microsoft's "core dump" binary formats, NTFS file system, CIFS and the Active Directory are not proper open standards yet great effort has been made thus far to reverse-engineer and deal with them so as to break down the Microsoft lock-in. How come, all of the sudden, RMS has to chime in about OOXML and now suddenly we should all ignore it on principle?

      Perhaps the KDE people should become even more principled and drop all the hooks it has with Samba to browse and be browsed on Microsoft's "network neighbourhood". Perhaps Linux-based OSes should not only all drop GNOME as the default desktop, they should also drop the ability to mount NTFS volumes too. After all, if we're gonna snub OOXML because it's crap and it's closed, then we should be consistent and do the same across the board.
  • Sigh. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by AdamWill (604569) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:30PM (#21656931) Homepage
    As was extensively explained in various GNOME places recently, Miguel is not GNOME, and has borderline zero impact or influence on GNOME at present (hence the best 'looks-serious' tag the author could find for him was "co-founder"; Woz was the co-founder of Apple, does that mean he's running iPod codec policy?) . Quim Gil is rather more directly involved in GNOME right now, but he also works for Nokia. He also clearly does not set Nokia's corporate policy. Therefore what he's doing on that bug report is reporting a corporate policy that stinks. This is obviously an uncomfortable position for him, but has sod all to do with GNOME.
    • by segedunum (883035)

      Quim Gil is rather more directly involved in GNOME right now, but he also works for Nokia. He also clearly does not set Nokia's corporate policy. Therefore what he's doing on that bug report is reporting a corporate policy that stinks. This is obviously an uncomfortable position for him, but has sod all to do with GNOME.

      He's heavily involved with Gnome, and on a bug report within an open source project that is Gnome related he is regurgitating a corporate policy that is totally at odds with the free and op

      • Re:Sigh. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by AdamWill (604569) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @01:48PM (#21658559) Homepage
        How can he 'separate the two'?

        Nokia obviously does not want to support Vorbis. That's not Quim's decision to make. He can't change reality on the bug report and say "sure, Nokia will support Vorbis tomorrow, everything will be fine and dandy", because it's clearly *not going to happen*. But Nokia's policy is not GNOME's, and what Nokia does really has no implications for what GNOME does.

        I really don't understand what you expect Quim to do on this bug report, or why you think it implies anything in particular about *GNOME's* policies, rather than Nokia's.
  • by RandoX (828285) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:30PM (#21656933)
    Gnu drama.
  • by sayfawa (1099071) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:32PM (#21656969)
    Gnome does *not* support OOXML becoming a standard. The *only* thing they are doing with it is trying to make sure that *if* and when it becomes a standard that it's good enough and open enough for Free software like Gnome apps to able to implement it. But they are *not* helping to get it passed.

    Furthuremore, this crap article praises KDE for backing ODF implying that Gnome isn't. Of course Gnome backs ODF.

    Finally, look for Jeff Waugh's comments in the comment section of TFA to see how it really is.
    • by sayfawa (1099071) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:47PM (#21657303)
      There are so many TFA's. I had assumed by the /. title that the main one was this which I had read earlier:
      KDE takes stand on OOXML; Gnome dithers [itwire.com].

      But I still stand by my comments. And here, just to cut to the chase, is one of Jeff Waugh's comments from the article linked above:

      The GNOME Foundation is not in bed with Microsoft or Novell on this issue. Our statement is very clear about our attitude towards OOXML and our participation in ECMA TC45-M. We're there to ensure that we have sufficient documentation for FLOSS project to implement it. We're not endorsing, contributing to or developing the OOXML specification or its standardisation. (In fact, it has had a positive contribution to my work against OOXML locally...) Whatever happens with ISO, it's important for FLOSS products to implement it such that users have the opportunity to embrace Software Freedom without cutting themselves off from their own documents, or collaboration with their friends and colleagues. We don't have to like OOXML, Microsoft or the Microsoft/Novell deal to implement it, and have an open and pragmatic approach to delivering Software Freedom to as many users as we possibly can. We fiercely compete with Microsoft, and we're not about to give their monopoly a leg up by boycotting their stupid format. We want *MORE* FLOSS users, not fewer. There is a complete valid disagreement about the *perception* of GNOME involvement in TC45-M and how Microsoft might use it (and we'll make it very clear to national bodies and BRM delegates what our position is and why we're involved in the ECMA group), but nothing deserving demonisation of GNOME or suggestions that it has "sold out" to any corporation. That is simply not the case, and it is unnecessarily divisive to suggest so.
    • by renoX (11677)
      >>The *only* thing they are doing with it is trying to make sure that *if* and when it becomes a standard that it's good enough and open enough for Free software like Gnome apps to able to implement it.>Of course Gnome backs ODF.

      In thoughts only AFAIK: which Gnome component is going to use ODF? Do they have someone working on the standardisation board to ensure that ODF is really good?

      IMHO, it's much more important to have a great ODF and a great support for ODF than Microsoft Office XML: so every
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by kilgortrout (674919)
      Gnome is in a tough spot caused by its founder, Miguel de Icaza. Given Icaza's incredibly stupid and harmful MS pandering over OOXML and other MS technologies, anything short of Gnome's total renunciation of OOXML is viewed with suspicion. Jeff Waugh's comments and Gnome's position seem reasonable to me but then crazy Miguel pops up somewhere spouting nonsense about what a wonderful standard OOXML is. This coupled with Gnome's participation in the standardization process understandably makes people nervous.
  • grow a pair! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mseidl (828824) * on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:35PM (#21657019) Homepage
    For the love of god, why don't people have balls(women excluded)? I'm getting tired of people bowing down to pressure or being bought out. Doesn't anybody stand up for what they believe in anymore? I mean, way to go KDE. But, Gnome? I mean, as a community aren't we supposed to stand up for the FREE as in FREEDOM we claim that open source is? I mean, this isn't just the Gnome community, I'm talking about the community as a whole. We need to stop OOXML. It's a big bloated piece of crap, shilled out at the last moment simply because MS saw a threat. But this rant isn't even about OOXML alone. Just now Ogg was kicked out of the HTML5 spec due to pressure from Nokia and Apple. I mean, WTF! Ogg was a great choice, good quality, free as in beer, and free as in freedom. The best of both worlds.

    Anyways, I'm done talking.

    • by caluml (551744)

      why don't people have balls [wikipedia.org](women excluded)?
      Theirs are just inside, hidden away from view, and feet.

      Doesn't anybody stand up for what they believe in anymore?
      Sure, I'm sure it's great being homeless with a clean conscience.
      However, Miguel does seem like a major sell out. I'm glad I don't use Gnome or Novell.
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by 0racle (667029)
      Perhaps the GNOME people believe that they are not the people to decide how you use your system and therefore just provide tools to do what ever they think you might want to do.
    • Re:grow a pair! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by msevior (145103) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @06:19PM (#21663515)
      As an AbiWord developer all I can say is we want to support any format that our users have on their computer.

      The work that Jody does helps in this regard.

      If the KOffice guys want to not import ooxml then they're making their program less useful to their users.

      Martin Sevior
  • More weight to KDE (Score:4, Insightful)

    by FutureDomain (1073116) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:35PM (#21657035)

    Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?

    With Linus preferring KDE, could Stallman's support put more weight behind KDE? I'm rather surprised that the GNOME Foundation's decision. They could at least have kept their mouths shut instead of praising OOXML, which severely damages their credibility in the GNU world.

    • by steveha (103154) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @02:39PM (#21659605) Homepage
      I'm rather surprised that the GNOME Foundation's decision. They could at least have kept their mouths shut instead of praising OOXML, which severely damages their credibility in the GNU world.

      Who is "they"? Who is "them"?

      Has an official representative of the GNOME Foundation publicly stated that it is GNOME Foundation policy to praise OOXML? Has the GNOME Foundation, as a group, taken any kind of official position on OOXML (other than "we want the specs for it so we can interoperate with OOXML users")?

      Miguel de Icaza, who is not the GNOME Foundation, did call it "a superb standard". The GNOME Foundation did not endorse his comments, but it did release this statment:

      http://www.gnome.org/press/releases/ecma-tc45-statement.html [gnome.org]

      Here's my favorite quote from the above statement:

      While Microsoft should be applauded for releasing information about the Office document formats, their manoeuvres around the standards process demonstrate that they are not pursuing standardisation as a platform for innovation for the entire industry. Indeed, Microsoft continues to behave in the abusive manner of an unreformed, convicted monopolist with no passion for true industry collaboration in the interests of users.


      If you have some examples of the GNOME Foundation praising OOXML, be sure to post them here. But at the moment I do not believe your complaints are supported by the facts.

      P.S. As for Richard Stallman, he won't be completely satisfied with any desktop environment until he can get one where the whole environment is GPLv3 and there is no proprietary software available. Both GNOME and KDE have proprietary software available.

      steveha
  • by mlwmohawk (801821) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:37PM (#21657073)
    I am reminded of Henry Kissinger's famous quote: "Even a paranoid has some real enemies."

    I appreciate RMS and his views. He is a pragmatic alarmist, he is playing the chess game that is computers several moves ahead of most people. That's why so many take his statements with a grain of salt, they don't see he has been "right," consistently, for over two decades, often years before the first real signs begin to show.

    GNU/Linux and F/OSS have enemies. It is an undeniable fact. There are people working against us. One need only hop over to groklaw and see the black hand of Microsoft (and greed of course) guiding that whole thing. So, maybe we are paranoid, but even paranoids have real enemies.

    I am really starting to believe that GNOME is a trojan horse, or at least some aspects of it. I don't trust Miguel de Icaza, he's either incompetent of a shill and he's potentially dangerous.
    • I am really starting to believe that GNOME is a trojan horse, or at least some aspects of it.

      Whatever the motives of individuals behind the Gnome project, it has contributed one of only 4 fully fledged (only 2 free), stable and heavy-weight desktop managers around. Not only that but it has contributed a toolkit of the highest quality and literally hundreds of excellent applications.

      Let's face it - just as KDE didn't die when gnome was founded in reaction to linking to non-GPL code, so Gnome won't die if

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Trax (93121)
      Miguel De Icaza has not been active in the GNOME community for at least the last 5 years. So don't connect Miguel's actions and speech with the GNOME community.

      As another post said read Jeff Waugh's comments in the previously mentioned article. Read before you assume.
    • by noldrin (635339) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @01:30PM (#21658197)
      I think this is the best analysis of RMS I've seen on Slashdot. RMS is fighting a principled struggle, it won't necessarily make him popular, but I thank him for doing so. I know when I met him and told him that I admired his work, he made sure to admonish me for not coding myself.

      I think XFCE is about to eat GNOME's lunch. I just tried it again for the first time in several years, and wow has it matured. You can keep using the same GNOME applications and have nice looking GTK, but have an interface that's easy to use, feature rich, fast and it just works better.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by christurkel (520220)
      he's either incompetent of a shill and he's potentially dangerous.

      I think he is naive; I honestly believe he thinks MSOOXML is a good thing, based on his experience with .Net and Mono, but the two are very different thing with completely different agendas. MS sees value in having .Net/Mono out there to further it's adoption. MSOOXML is tool for lock in, embrace, extend extinquish. Protect the Office monopoly.
  • by gosand (234100) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:43PM (#21657209)
    Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?"


    As a long time KDE user, I sincerely hope not.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:53PM (#21657419)
    1. KDE was good, but not free (Free? phree?) enough.
    2. Gnome was established because we couldn't accept that un-free KDE?
    3. KDE fixed its problems and Gnome became Microsoft's bitch
    4. ???
    5. Profit!!!
    • by mdielmann (514750)

      1. KDE was good, but not free (Free? phree?) enough.
      2. Gnome was established because we couldn't accept that un-free KDE?
      3. KDE fixed its problems and Gnome became Microsoft's bitch
      4. ???
      5. Profit!!!
      Note that the number of steps between 3 and 5 is somewhere between 1 and infinity. I suspect that the number is closer to infinity. While I'm aware that this is a mathematical impossibility, I stand behind my statement.
  • by Mazin07 (999269) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @12:55PM (#21657473) Homepage
    Tune in next episode as exciting new revelations are unveiled!
  • by bhunachchicken (834243) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @01:06PM (#21657669) Homepage

    ... what Miguel de Icaza's obsession with shoving Microsoft technologies in to Gnome?

    1. .NET (Mono)
    2. OOXML
    3. ???

    Is it to try and attract Windows developers to the Linux platform? Is it to ease transition from Windows to Linux? Is it to make it easier for Microsoft to threaten the entire community with patent infringement threats..? What is it?

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by katz (36161)
      don't forget GNOME's Registrar, a concept copied from the Microsoft Windows' Registry...
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by raddan (519638)

      ... what Miguel de Icaza's obsession with shoving Microsoft technologies in to Gnome?
      4. Profit.
    • by wasabii (693236) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @04:30PM (#21661635)
      It's because he's pragmatic. You know, not religious. Not a fundamentalist crazy-person.

      I like Mono. It lets me write C# on Linux. Does it hurt you? Apparently it must, how I have no idea.

      I want to open OOXML documents. Does this hurt you? Got me. You seem to think it does.
  • I will say yet again: I hope Miguel de Icaza takes responsibility when Microsoft's stranglehold over the open source software I like grows. Because he sure seems to be infatuated with the company and their products.
  • considering that GNOME was RMS's baby to start with. Which is something I hold against him. There are many factors which prevent Linux from being widely acceptable, but having GNOME vs KDE business belongs to the major one.
  • Confusion Part Two (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ajs318 (655362) <(sd_resp2) (at) (earthshod.co.uk)> on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @01:34PM (#21658267)
    Once upon a time, KDE was lambasted for using the not-Free-enough Qt libraries. There was a project to replace Qt and create a truly free KDE; but in the end, Trolltech released Qt under the GPL. And not the mealy-mouthed LGPL, like the GNOME libraries, which allows use in Caged software; but the full-on, not-sharing-is-stealing GPL. So the leeches still had to pay to use Qt in a Caged application; but if you played fair and wrote Free software, you could use Qt with the blessing of the copyright holders. (This didn't please the Windows fans. Windows users, raised on a diet of "illegally copying the Software is my way of Sticking It to the Man, and if you don't pay me $49 for this crapplication to do something petty that Unix has had since forever that I built with my pirate copy of Visual Studio, I'll turn off saving and bring up nag screens every five minutes", bitched loudly that there was no GPL Qt for Windows -- but the only thing stopping them porting it was the fact that the average Windows user would rather drown in shit than make the effort to swim.)

    Now, the "freedom" to write Caged applications is a thorny issue. But I see it like this, and I'm sure RMS does too: in a nation where the ownership of slaves is forbidden, citizens tend to be freer on average than in a nation where the ownership of slaves is permitted. So KDE are actively promoting freedom, by taking a stand against OOXML. Novell and GNOME and Mono are getting rather too cosy in bed with Microsoft for comfort. It's very hard not to think about Microsoft pulling some kind of bait-and-switch operation which would put OSS users in trouble. If this happens, I think it's actually more likely that the Governments of the world would just pass Enabling Acts to annul whatever IP Microsoft are trying to abuse; but that's still a waste of taxpayers' money that doesn't have to happen, and by the time it gets to that stage the damage (in terms of unopenable public and private records) will be severe.

    Not everyone is as responsible a citizen as you. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you, and just because you don't understand the importance of having access to Source Code doesn't mean it isn't every bit as big a deal, in its own right, as slavery.
  • by apokryphos (869208) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @01:48PM (#21658555) Homepage
    I'm getting pretty tired of this ongoing OOXML issue; the FUD surrounding it is astounding. The article on itwire hasn't helped anyone since it's pretty clueless, looking for buzzwords and then reaching bizarre conclusions. Let's get a few facts down here:
    • GNOME (and Novell) do not support the standardisation of OOXML. They are both members of the ODF alliance [odfalliance.org], both use it as the default file format, and if it was even remotely realistic to have a decent office product without OOXML support (where the Windows desktop is unfortunately in such an insane over-dominance currently), then they would of course be all for it.
    • The implementation of OOXML is all about interoperability. I don't see anyone (wrongly) trashing Samba as a project, and yet its existence and the effort to implement OOXML support is virtually identical in terms of free software.
    • You like software freedom and hate the software patent system? Great, so do I. Free implementations of proprietary solutions, though, are a good thing; not a single one of my friends are going to be using Linux if they can't submit their assignments to their lecturers. We need interoperability, to ease the transition for people coming from the proprietary world.
    • The KDE/Koffice developers issued a statement [kde.org] basically saying they didn't have the resources or the time to implement OOXML, and suddenly a lot of silly talk gets thrown at GNOME. If I volunteered to implement OOXML support in Koffice I doubt (i) that they would object, and for sure that (ii) any distribution would not include it.
    • Even if you dislike Jeff Waugh, it's pretty tough to find a rational basis for criticising him based on the podcast or his approach to the problem other than (i) not getting the GNOME statement [gnome.org] (again, which you really can't fault) out soon enough, or (ii) giving Roy the publicity he wants.
    • The itwire article plays Roy as some sort of victim in the podcast talk. That is ridiculous. Unfortunately -- and to the detriment of the FLOSS community -- Roy is an incredibly prolific, poisonous [google.nl] person willing to do or say anything that might cook up some self-publicity, and with an irrational hatred of Novell. And in fact on the contrary, Roy skipped around every question that was directly asked to him; instead opting to just give background on Microsoft's "evil" nature and talking about how bad OOXML is (both of which we palpably know).
    • Finally, even if you decide to ignore all the other above facts, please tell me why you're not also staging wide protests against OpenOffice.org or your distribution for including OOXML support, as well.
    To save any comments of bias, I'm an ardent KDE aficionado.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by WhiteWolf666 (145211)
      I don't see why anyone is defending OOXML.

      No one uses it, yet. It's not a pragmatic standard, and it's definitely not an "official" standard (as in ISO).

      More likely than not, if I sent out DOCX files from my business, I would be asked to send either PDF or DOC.

      Until OOXML is ubiquitous, which will not happen for several years, there is no reason to not push ODF instead, particularly because ODF's got quite a bit of momentum internationally. Especially if the ODF plugin for MS Office continues to work proper
  • by seebs (15766) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @02:02PM (#21658849) Homepage
    Bill's married. It will never work.
  • Gnome issue (Score:3, Interesting)

    by GeekDork (194851) on Tuesday December 11, 2007 @05:04PM (#21662263)

    The one big problem with Gnome is that it embodies exactly what ordinary folk would imagine when you asked them about the meaning of "computer nerd". The image is that of a clumsy, pimply boy living somewhere in a basement, desperately trying to be anti-establishment. In a way, it wants to be a techno-hippie. Now imagine that the nerd's world was suddenly turned upside down by his views becoming mainstream, at least to a certain degree. By now, it has become kind of common to think and say that Microsoft is the devil, that the whole proprietary software crap should be buried in an unmarked grave, etc.

    That's exactly the situation Icaza and his cronies are finding themselves in. They wanted to be rebels, even saviors. One sign of that is the (rather fruitless) experiment that is Gnome. In an attempt to describe it, I arrived at the following:

    Gnome is like the intersection of the Apple and Microsoft design teams without the resources or the skills.

    Or in other words: Epic fail! You want proof? Until today, Gnome has consistently failed to even grow a usable file selection dialog. I rest my case.

    Ironically, denouncing the rest of the "scene" has that way become the logical way to again be different. It's a purely religious reflex: if someone threatens your perceived dominance, it is declared evil. If you think about it, deep in its absolute retardedness, it's kinda cute on that level.

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