Auto Mileage Standards Raised to 35 mpg

Ponca City, We Love You writes "The Senate just passed a bill that will increase auto mileage standards for the first time in three decades. The auto industry's fleet of new cars, sport utility vehicles, pickup trucks and vans will have to average 35 mpg by 2020, a significant increase over the 2008 requirement of 27.5 mpg average. For consumers, the legislation will mean that over the next dozen years auto companies will likely build more diesel-powered SUVs and gas-electric hybrid cars as well as vehicles that can run on 85 percent ethanol. Automakers had vehemently opposed legislation in June that contained the same mileage requirements and Fortune magazine reported that American automakers were starting the miles-per-gallon race far behind Japan and that the new standards could doom US automakers. At the time, Chrysler officially put the cost of meeting the proposed rules at $6,700 per vehicle. The White House announced the President will sign the bill if it comes to his desk."

Remember US gallons are smaller...

[megla]

...so before all us Brits start going on about how our cars perform so much better, you need to multiply US MPG figures by 1.2 to make them equivilant to UK MPG figures, as an Imperial gallon > US gallon.

Re:Only 35?

[ishmaelflood]

"Different engines have drastically different amounts of CO2/Gallon emissions"

No they don't. All the carbon in the fuel ends up as carbon, carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide. CO is oxidised to CO2 in the cat, and C will be oxidised in the cats of 2010 diesel engines. C (soot) is not a problem in current gasoline engines.

"They are weakly correlated to be sure"

They are strongly correlated. >>0.9

Stop talking out your arse.

Re:It's about damn time

[_merlin]

That's absolute rubbish. Japanese cars are more reliable than anything coming out of the US. It's far more common to see a twenty year old Toyota than a Ford from the same year. American cars are built to look impressive, but that's about as far as it goes. The build quality is atrocious, and they aren't efficient or practical, either.

Re:Remember US gallons are smaller...

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the brits had already joined the rest of the world in buying their petrol in metric units?

Re:Fuel Efficiency and E85

[Osty]

The thing is, the CO2 is not from carbon being pulled out of the ground but instead from carbon dioxide being scrubbed by crops from the atmosphere, so it's atmospheric CO2-neutral regardless of the efficiency.

Beyond that, the original poster missed this from the E85 article:

Depending on composition and source, E85 has an octane rating of 100 to 105 compared to regular gasoline's typical rating of 87 for regular and 93 for premium. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines, which can lower emissions.

In other words, in a flex-fuel engine you're probably not going to see better emissions since cylinder compression will be set to the fuel with the lowest requirement. In an E85-only engine, you can run a higher compression and burn your fuel more efficiently, thus creating fewer emissions.

Re:Why aren't they doing this /anyway/?

[ChangeOnInstall]

People in Norway manage fine with small cars. People in the Northern parts of Russia manage fine with small cars. Snow really is no excuse for large cars unless you are actually going to drive off road or your local government can't do their job properly and keep the roads clear.

It's a culture thing.

In the cities, Americans don't have any problem driving small cars (or no cars at all), just like folks in other countries.

But whether you like it or not, this country has a tremendous amount of suburban population. When density is lower, it takes quite a bit more time to clear the snow. The suburbs also require a vehicle to get anywhere (little to nothing is in walking distance) and there is no worthwhile public transportation. Add to this the fact that American culture is not a fan of waiting on its government to fix things.

peak oil

[hitchhacker]

Oil - proved reserves for the world (billion barrels):
1,312,000,000,000 bbl
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2178rank.html [cia.gov]
(notice Canada's oil shale is second to Saudi Arabia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale [wikipedia.org]

Oil - consumption for the world (bbl per day):
82,590,000 bbl/day
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2174rank.html [cia.gov]

I agree that, even now, we will be seeing an exponential increase in the price of oil. That doesn't diminish the fact that Hubbert's "peak oil" is real, and will occur on a global scale in a matter of decades if not already.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil#Conservative_predictions_of_future_oil_production [wikipedia.org]

I work in the oil exploration industry.. Oil isn't so easy to find, you know.

-metric

Re:Why aren't they doing this /anyway/?

[Stevecrox]

You obviously don't know why people in the UK pay so much extra, the government levies a tax on the fuel a "fuel tax" if you will. This fuel tax is then spent on maintaining the roads, public transport and other road related things. Alot of americans argue they have poor public transport, a gradually increased fuel tax would allow your government to improve such services and the quality of your roads. A fuel tax theoretically provides a buffer against rising oil costs as well.

There's the knock on effects as well, my performance motorcycle does 60MPG, my last motorcycle did 110MPG, my parents car does 54MPG on average, my various work mates cars all do 40+MPG. When I needed to get to a neighbouring town 6/7 miles away I had the choice of various buses and a train (it actually took as long to get there by train/bus as it normally does by car.)

The *high* fuel costs in america are already getting people to consider better performing cars why not capatilise on this and use it to improve your infrastructure as well.

Re:Remember US gallons are smaller...

[johnny maxwell]

For everone else in the world:

1 / 30 mpg = 7.8 litre / 100 km
1 / 27.5 mpg = 8.6 litre / 100 km

Assuming 1 gallon to be 231 in^3 (you have to love those units!)

Re:Finally.

[mazarin5]

Unfortunately, Ohio has made those chains illegal, claiming they tear up the roads. I still drive a sedan, but I just keep a shovel in the back.

Widespread ethanol blends - and the water scam

[murderlegendre]

In case you aren't aware, gasoline-ethanol blends are subject to a little trick known as the water scam. As you are probably aware, water is not soluble in gasoline - but water is soluble in ethanol, and this ethanol-water mix is partially soluble in gasoline. In short, water can be mixed into gasoline-ethanol blends.. I'm sure you can see where this is going.

As high-ethanol blends such as E85 become more widespread, and fuel prices climb, the opportunity and ability to scam the consumer will multiply. Fortunately, testing for water in gasoline blends is relatively simple, requiring only a simple, inexpensive test kit.

Believe it or not, I actually managed to get an Amoco station shut down (temporarily) in the late 1980s for pulling just this scam. I was in tech school at the time, and noticed that fuel from this station had a way of making my fuel-finicky BMW motorbike run very badly. Did the test, found something like 8-10% water, and called the regulatory authority. Saw the closed sign on the station several days later..

Re:Finally.

[init100]

If you know how to drive with your car in all conditions

In the US, is it required to take a slippery driving course to get a drivers' license? Or is it up to the individual states? Anyway, it is mandatory here (in Sweden)since some time ago, and it was quite interesting. You learned what to do and what to not do, as well as what happens if you do the wrong thing (such as turning and braking at the same time).

Re:destroy the US automakers ?

[savuporo]

I'm too lazy to search for a link, but I have read many times that most of the resource consumption a car will have over its lifetime has already happened by the time it leaves the production plant. Yes, you are too lazy to pay attention, and dont do your research. You are referring to the infamous CNW Marketing "Dust-to-dust" lifecycle cost analysis, which came out with a silly claim that a Hummer is greener than a prius. Well, if you wouldnt get your news from tabloids, you would know that this was a paid "research" and has been debunked six ways to sunday [grist.org].

Completely electric car has far FEWER parts than a gasoline one, less maintenance, less fluids and so on, which in itself constitutes a huge decrease in lifecycle costs, both cash and environmental impact. Of course, auto industry dont like this idea, as parts sales if often bigger cash cow for them than selling the cars themselves.
As to the battery, it depends. Lithium phosphate batteries, like the ones GM is planning for Volt plug-in, are the most environmentally benign ones possible. And they get more likely recycled than your engine oil.
Should we ever run out of metals that go into them, there are huge off-earth resources waiting to be stripmined, should we ever muster the will to go and get them.
I know little about the environmental impact of current battery production, but I imagine it is not pretty
You should have stopped at "I know little"

And for us that don't know gallons and miles...

[linhux]

35 miles per gallon = 0.067 liters per kilometer [google.se]

Re:It's about damn time

[bhiestand]

Also, I believe that Toyota and Honda make their cars in the US now while the "American" brands make their cars in Mexico or some such place...

If by make you mean assemble, then yes. I believe it was required by some of the trade agreements that Toyota open plants in America to sell cars on the American market. Many of the parts are still made elsewhere. Many American automakers assemble their vehicles in Detroit but manufacture many of their parts elsewhere. Remember, only 25% of a product needs to be manufactured in the USA to bear the "Made in the USA" label.

I guarantee the majority of the circuitry and electronics come from Taiwan, the upholstery is produced in Puerto Rico, and the simpler parts are made outside of the US by nearly every manufacturer.

Re:Americans should just stop with big engines!

[Xafier]

The US has politicians that don't want to charge more tax and get more money? Wow... we could do with a few of those!

I think the US pays roughly 1/3 the price for petrol that we do in the UK, if they really wanted people to start helping the environment, they'd add tax onto fuel costs, forcing people to get smaller cars, and with the spare tax money they could use it to fund research into better, renewable fuel sources...

But of course, that makes FAR too much sense for any politician to think about, and certainly nobody would vote for wanting to pay more, so it's unlikely to happen

Re:Mazda 626 1988 running 45% ethanol no problems

[Anonymous Coward]

"Bah, in Sweden I've got a Mazda 626 from 1988 "

I wonder how your car goes in the long term. Ethanol is a solvent for many of the materials used as seals in the typical fuel system of a car.

You can replace them with parts that aren't effected by Ethanol, but these parts are more expensive, and so not normally fitted.

I suggest you call Mazda ASAP, and check that it is OK to run your car on high ethanol concentrations. Many cars are fine on E10 or less, but can have expensive repair costs on higher concentrations. If in doubt, find out if they make any changes to the car before being sold in Brazil, where their fuel is E85 (mainly to prop up the farming industry).

I know that Holden commodores (Pontiac G8s in USA) have @120 parts changed to be sold in countries with E80 or higher.

Re:Why aren't they doing this /anyway/?

[Nimey]

Data point: '05 Civic Hybrid CVT. Over the last 40K miles or so, I've averaged 47.4 miles per gallon. My commute is about 35 miles and most of it is on a highway with a 55 MPH speed limit. Fuel economy goes up when it's warm and I don't run the AC, and down when I do or when it's cold like it is now. I think my record efficiency for a tank of gas was something like 54 MPG and the worst 32 (on a trip with someone else switching off and lots of highway construction).

Re:Only 35?

[Temkin]

Cat's were not required until 1973 in the US. It's a carburated engine, so if you add one, the extremely rich mixture causes the exotherm to exceed 750 deg/C and destroys the catalyst. They couldn't add a catalytic converter until they could control the mixture enough to prevent it.

This is why there were so many mechanical fuel injection systems and oddball "electric carburator's" in the 70's.

Re:Only 35?

[pafrusurewa]

Lumpy, don't forget that when non-US countries state their fuel economy they are using non-US gallons.

Huh? Actually, the rest of the world uses those newfangled things called "liter" and "kilometer." In many countries fuel economy is stated in liters per 100 kilometers, which is exactly what you're suggesting.

Re:It's about damn time

[mrbooze]

Man, it's not like this isn't *exactly* the sort of thing Consumer Reports collects reams of data on.

From their October 2007 report:

Reliability trends
Our latest survey tracks a decade's worth of trouble

Over the years, the reliability of Toyota-built vehicles (including Lexus and Scion) has been nothing short of sterling. However, our 2007 Annual Car Reliability Survey indicates that the Japanese automaker has slipped a bit. Three models manufactured by Toyota, including a version of the top-selling Camry, now rate below average in our predicted reliability.

By contrast, Ford's domestic makes have made considerable improvements in reliability. Of the Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury models in our survey, 93 percent scored average or better in predicted reliability.

Other news from our latest survey:

Overall, Asian models still dominate in reliability, accounting for 34 of the 39 models in the Most reliable new car list. Thirty-one are Japanese and three are South Korean.

Despite Toyota's problems, the automaker still ranks third overall in reliability, behind only Honda and Subaru, with 17 models in the best list. Honda has seven with a smaller model lineup.

Only four domestic models made the Most reliable list: the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Pontiac Vibe, and the two-wheel-drive Ford F-150 with the V6 engine. U.S. makes, however, account for almost half the models--20 of 44--on the Least reliable list. There are 13 from GM, 6 from Chrysler, and 1 from Ford.

European makes account for 17 models on the Least reliable list. This includes six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi.

Re:by 2020...

[hawk]

>was during Reagan. His administration also introduced the
>catalytic converter as a requirement, too

Wow, that Reagann could do *anything*. Mandating catalytic converters five years before he was elected. Wow.

Catalytic converters were the only way (almost) to meet emission requirements at the time. Thus, they appeared on every vehicle sold in the US starting in 1975, save for honda with that silly dual-chamber cvcc engine, which managed to put it off until 1979. Reagan was elected in 1980.

What's not mentioned here is the number of lives this will cost. Though I don't know it off the top of my hed, the number of lives lost per year per pound of removed mass on an automobile is a known figure. Yes, there are other safety mechanisms, but to deny that lighter cars cost lives is simply dishonest (but you may honestly argue that the tradeoff is worthwhile).

hawk, still irritated that Sen. Bryan left office voluntarily instead of giving us the pleasure of voting him out.

Re:RANT: MPG vs L/100km - why not km/L?

[Blkdeath]

Consider 20 miles per gallon, 50 miles to destination, 2.5 gallons of gas, at $3.00/gal is $7.50. (It's 50km to your destination, you get 12L/100km, how much does it cost if gas costs $1.00/L? $6.00, but good luck performing that in your head at highway speeds if I didn't give you round numbers to work with...)

50kms = half of 100kms so if I get 12l/100km and I only need to drive half of that I'll consume 6l and gas right now is about $1.00/litre so it's an easy $6.

That's the beauty of metric. It's all base-10. Slide a decimal place around and calculations are almost non-existant.

Your rant reminds me of an American gentleman who once scorned the metric system because he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that 1/4lb of meat is enough for a healthy sandwich so he doesn't have to think at the deli counter. (Strange, since that equates to 113 grams. When working in restaurants I've always made sandwiches with about 80 grams, but I suppose 113 grams or thereabouts would make a healthy sandwich. {shrug} I guess you can insert some sort of American weight stereotype here :)