Hotmail Doesn't Work With Linux Firefox 2.0 396
An anonymous reader tips a column up at freesoftwaremagazine.com in which the writer discovers that the latest UI enhancements that Hotmail has recently introduced don't work with Firefox 2.0 under Linux. The writer concludes that the webmail interface has been artificially limited by basic user-agent sniffing. The solution is simple enough — spoofing the User Agent that Firefox reports.
Kind of Misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
So there must be some new enhancements that maybe only subscribers get to use? Or perhaps these are more office tools that don't work in Firefox. Ok, well, before I go on, I wish someone somewhere would have pointed out that the Google apps are both free and work in Firefox. So that's sounding more and more like an easy choice/solution for Mitch Meyran's problems.
I would posit, however, that since Google's apps are probably for the most part built using GWT I'd bet that Microsoft's equivalent will be based on Silverlight. I have no idea since I have not used this but I do know that Firefox's Silverlight plugin is in beta [mozillalinks.org]. What does surprise me is that my company allows me to use Outlook Web Interface which 1) works in Linux & 2) works in Firefox 2.0. Most surprisingly it's quite slick!
So if I may state my opinion, you're probably suffering from Microsoft's attempt to assert its dominance by forcing you to use Explorer in Windows. So if they are forcing you into this ultimatum, you can either respond by bending to their will and falling into their Monopolistic strong arm practices or you can look for another solution that meets your needs. It would be an easy choice for me but you're the consumer with the money, it's your choice.
Hotmail? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hotmail? (Score:5, Insightful)
Spoofing user agent is no solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Spoofing the user agent is no solution, even if it does work. That's what Micro$oft wants you to do so that it appears that more people are using IE than actually are. The numbers game is far more important than the number of users who actually use Firefox.
The best solution is to dump hotmail and move to a better free email client like Gmail or Yahoo.
Re:Hotmail? (Score:5, Insightful)
again with the user agent excludes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Nor with Opera (Score:5, Insightful)
The only way to reply to messages is to choose "plain text" instead of rich text. Rich text is the default, but you are not able to type anything. So, choose plain text. Except that when you do that, a random half of the time, Hotmail erases your entire message.
In order to use Hotmail with any ability with Opera, Ive had to develop a several step workaround, just to reply to email. Thats one (more) reason why the upcoming Yahoo/MS merger worries me. If Yahoo mail goes the way of Hotmail, my workaround will move from occasional to every single damn time.
Re:This seems desperate... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why assume it's malicious, when this sort of issue is well known to anyone who's ever tried to support multiple browsers through UA sniffing?
Re:Kind of Misleading (Score:2, Insightful)
Thats the problem with the world, without knowing the target environment, simple changes affect the end user experience in unpredictable ways. Now I am not saying go use IE, I personally hate IE and haven't used it in years, but without the plugins which can affect any aspect of the end user experience you can guarantee what your end user will see. But people will bitch all the same about things which are within their control to change.
Re:Kind of Misleading (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:This seems desperate... (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? That's really what you think about the people that administer a giant network used by millions of people - that they're just dumb? If there IS an oversight here, why are you assuming that it's some amateur attempt to punish Firefox users (who have been using the service happily for years now), when it's more likely just a misconfigured agent sniffer that needs to be fine tuned around the new FF version's specific appearance on a Linux box? If you, personally, are so much smarter than the software and network engineers that maintain that system, and really think that MS would not care about preventing people from using their system and seeing the advertisements there, which generate revenue, then why aren't you doing something more successful than they are? Or, are you just taking time away from whatever your "smarter than most of the staff at Microsoft" talents normally have you doing on a typical Friday? Give it a rest.
Yahoo! Trainwreck Coming (Score:5, Insightful)
The Internet itself is a hothouse for competition. The global environment for megacorps, though, is precisely the opposite. When the business drives the apps, which it always will at that scale, the Internet's flexibility will become a hothouse for monopolies. Since the entire world depends on the Internet, that Internet monoculture must be stopped. That's why people have governments: to stop the ambitious among them from exploiting advantages that hurt everyone else.
There is every evidence that Microsoft's control of Yahoo would be a disaster, and no evidence that it would be good for anyone but Microsoft (and maybe the Yahoo shareholders they buy off). If the deal goes through, that's the proof that the people need to change our governments to actually protect us, instead of serving these monopolies.
Re:Kind of Misleading (Score:2, Insightful)
This is a non-story, and these kind of "stories" are making Slashdot feel more and more like digg. Microsoft leveraging their popular products to artificially limit the functionality of Linux users? SRSLY? SOMEONE ALERT THE INTERNETZ!! WE'VE GOT BREAKING NEWS! Hotmail works fine from Linux + FireFox - I too tried it last night. It's got some deprecated functionality, but that's pretty much par for the course with Microsoft-oriented webapps under Linux.
Also, exchanges like the following really do nothing to enhance anyones perception of Linux users -
The article doesn't indicate if he has paid for a subscription or not (just says "subscribed"), but responses like the above annoy the piss out of me. Everyone who cares knows that Microsoft does this. Everyone who cares, knows that in an ideal world, standards would prevail and that Microsoft's tactics in the market aren't very ethical. Why we have to continue to broadcast it with some kind of obnoxious, faux-righteous indignation is beyond me - it really only alienates people and strengthens Microsoft's point that Linux is only for pot-smoking, Hobbit-reading, half-commie hippies [theregister.co.uk]. Unless the guy paid for his subscription, his tone is just uncalled for (and even if he did, I think its still obnoxious.)
One day, I'd like to be able to suggest Linux without having to fight these perceptions, and if Mitch (and people like him) would tone it down a little bit, that would make things much easier.
Anti competition anybody? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hotmail? (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthering my theory is the fact that the invites YahooGroups lists send to msn.com addresses are bounced as spam. Why would Microsoft do this? There is of course no logical reason, nor any civilized reason. One could pretend this is a competitive thing -- reject the competitor's attempt to grow their user base. More realistically msn.com bouncing perfectly reasonable email will simply cause people with msn.com addresses to abandon those addresses -- success from Microsoft's point of view.
Microsoft doesn't need people who only email. They want to push people "forward", into more "advanced" features like Live -- where they can make some actual cash. Email is passe, so why have hundreds of millions of mailboxes to worry about? Of course, this is why they dispose of user email if said user is unable to access their mailbox for a remarkably short amount of time -- a month, IIRC. I used to set reminders so that this wouldn't happen to my backup hotmail.com accounts but now I just let it happen -- useless hotmail.com mailboxes being toasted by a useless company seems appropriately bizarre.
Microsoft isn't the only one doing this (Score:5, Insightful)
Web "developers" are simply dumb. That's all. Yes, this suddenly turns into a huge story because it's Microsoft. But, even in that case, I wouldn't be surprised if this is just somebody they hired in a low level position being ignorant.
Yahoo (Score:5, Insightful)
Makes you wonder what will happen if Microsoft acquires Yahoo.
Re:Hotmail? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Kind of Misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
This sort of thing is totally unacceptable. First, it might even be illegal as abuse of Microsoft's monopoly (yes, Hotmail 'works' on Linux, but it works better under Microsoft's OS). Second, there is no excuse for this. Last I checked, Gmail and Yahoo mail work perfectly fine, with all functionality, on Windows, OS X and Linux. As Microsoft has more money than both of these rivals, plainly it could support Firefox under Linux. But it prefers to leverage synergy with Windows (I almost choked on the marketspeak there, but you get what I mean).
So no, that this is 'par for the course' with Microsoft does not mean it is ok, and certainly does not mean it is not worthy of a Slashdot story. It is 100% worthy, word needs to get out about this sort of thing.
Re:Yahoo! Trainwreck Coming (Score:2, Insightful)
So, um, how do you have dominance over a monopoly?
Past 30+ years, Microsoft a selfish brat (Score:4, Insightful)
If the way Microsoft did business is very good, right, and moral, then why not teach this to our kids in our schools? Lacking in creativity? getting bad grades? Pay off your teacher. Buy your way through school through manipulation, power, and influence. Isn't that what Microsoft has done in the real world, except they have bought their way through the government enough to dispell public scrutiny? If we let Microsoft do this, are we not doing our kids a disservice because we are not teaching them the way the world is? Maybe the correct way is not democracy, but to make as much money as possible, any way you can, buying your way through life, and forgetting people who have less power than you?
If we would let Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer take over the world, I would have to say, your free speech would be removed, you would have to pay to post your words here on Slashdot, and your words would of course be censored, and only speech that would glorify Microsoft's cause as long as Bill and Steve could use it propaganda for their empire. They are no different than one country trying to take over the world. There are governments in their way and they will be dealt with accordingly.
Your choice. Freedom or Bondage. I want freedom. In everything I do, I do those things that promote those ideals. In regards to computing, I use a lot of Open Source software, like Linux and Mac OS X, Open Office, and Firefox (stuff Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer do not want me to use because it does not suit their purposes) not closed source garbage, like MS-Windows, Microsoft Office, or Internet Explorer (stuff that would lock me in to giving Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer perpetual money without them having to earn it from me.)
Re:Hotmail? (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree with your statement mostly but it is such a pain in the ass to switch if everything worked for you fine. Consider that my credit card company had a web interface that I always used to make payments suddenly added a whole new flash interface that would not work with firefox/linux. It was the correct version of flash, so I figured it was the credit card company's fault
Long story short, I complained to the company and within a week or two it was fixed without me doing a thing. (no updates)
P.S. This probably won't work in your case.
Re:Hotmail? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Kind of Misleading (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Kind of Misleading (Score:1, Insightful)
Miconfigured agent sniffer (Score:3, Insightful)
So it's either a dumb technical mistake, or a dumb PR/social one... and just because it may take a lot of technical skills (of many people) run run a site with millions of users, doesn't inherently mean that the "social" aspect of the skills are on par.
Also, given MS's track record, I don't really think it's unreasonable to believe that a sudden "incompatibility" with competing products might be deliberate... it's been a pretty standard practice even from the early DOS/win3.1 days.
the real solution is even simpler (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Kind of Misleading (Score:3, Insightful)
I have to say that I've been reading about how slashdot isn't what it used to be ever since 5-digit UIDs were the domain of noobs. First people said people ought to head to The Well, then Kuro5hin, then Ars Technica, then Digg, then Ars Technica again... yet, here we are, still arguing, discussing and talking about what sites are better than Slashdot. I say that's a tremendous statement about how good Slashdot actually is. And I'll even argue that comments like yours, pointing out the lameness of some of the articles, are part of what keeps Slashdot honest and Good(TM).