F-117A Stealth Fighter Retired 476
zonker writes "Nearly 30 years ago Lockheed Martin's elite Skunk Works team developed what would become the F-117A Nighthawk Stealth Fighter. A few of their earlier projects include the SR-71 Blackbird and U2 Dragon Lady spy planes. Today is the last for the Stealth Fighter, which is being replaced by the F-22 Raptor (another Skunk Works project)."
Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:4, Interesting)
Microprose (Score:4, Interesting)
It was quite an interesting change, whereas in most other combat flight simulators like Falcon 3.0 and F15 Strike Eagle I would be actively seeking a fight with any enemy on my radar and pumping them full of sidewinders or 20MM, in F117A the mission is to avoid the enemy patrols and ground radars
Deprecated Warfighting (Score:4, Interesting)
Two bombs, no Air-to-Air capability other than playing "How not to be seen." really well, and subsonic speeds just seemed to make the F-117 come across as oddball in my eyes. Either the F-22 has better stealth than we realize, or there's something newer, more stealthier and more secretive coming around.
A good plane (Score:5, Interesting)
We developed this plane in secret, with borrowed theories from the russians. The plane itself came out of a corporate Manhattan project, built by a combination of old salts who could wave their hands and make grumpy generalizations about engine configuration that hours of calculations would bear out and younger engineers employing technology that wasn't readily available outside the united states.
It was kept secret until we felt the need to unveil it as the epitome of american superiority in Panama and the gulf war. We spent a decade lauding the precision strike capability, ignoring reports that smart bombs were only so smart. Only in the past 5 years have we grudgingly come to accept that there were limitations to the strategy of aerial bombardment, limitations that hampered our ability to fight and killed civilians on the ground. But that doesn't make this plane or its pilots evil or murderous. We just became caught up in the technology, the gritty night vision cameras resulting in static filled screens where buildings used to be.
In a lot of ways, that is similar to our love affair with this plane. Ugly, but elegant. Unflyable without computer aided control but possessing strangely beautiful lines. Born of american ingenuity and sullied by hubris. It is a wonderful aircraft, and a great story. Thanks to the men (and women) who built it and flew it throughout the years.
Re:I still want to know... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:3, Interesting)
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_shuttle_thermal_protection_system [wikipedia.org]
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What are they working on now? (Score:5, Interesting)
The F-22 is the real "stealth fighter". The F-117A was the stealth attack craft/tactical bomber.
Fighters usually aren't all that super secret. But reconnaissance, and strategic assault vehicles. Now those are secret.
The F-117A's mission is likely to be super-seded by unmanned stealth drones.
The SR-71 was retired a while back. The F-117A was NOT a replacement for the SR-71. Rather, both operated concurrently for some time.
The mostly likely replacement for the Blackbird is the Aurora project. Sometimes caught by seismologists and observers. Rumored to use a a pulsating scramjet and being the mach 5-8 range.
Then there is the B2 (flying wing) bomber and the B1-B The B1-B being famous for numerous crashes. Though very few in later years. What was the change? The government had been only doing 85% of the maintenance recommended for the bombers by it's manufacturers. They began doing the full maintenance recommended maintenance, fluid changes, etc. Things ceased failing...go figure.
USAF Deception (Score:5, Interesting)
The F- designation was actually deliberate. The USAF didn't want enemies to know that this was a bomber, not a fighter, so they named it differently.
Re:Deprecated Warfighting (Score:5, Interesting)
The size was another compromise (smaller = easier to hide), and the engines didn't have afterburners to minimise the IR signature, which meant no supersonic flight. Radar technology wasn't advanced enough to build a low-observable (or Low Probability of Intercept, LPI) air search radar, and a 1970's radar would compromise the aircraft's stealthiness even when turned off.
Oddball maybe, but the F-117 was the best possible design with 1970s technology. To get it to work at all, everything else had to be sacrificed for the one mission that couldn't be done by any other platform: surprise attacks.
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:5, Interesting)
The thing that I always thought amazing at the time I worked with them was that the avionics seemed so outdated in an age where most older airframes where being fitted with glass. Lot's of round gages and such.
Re:What are they working on now? (Score:1, Interesting)
During the cold war getting funding was less of a problem due to the looming soviet threat and secrecy was more important.
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Deprecated Warfighting (Score:3, Interesting)
The F-22 might not have better stealth than we realize, but it is pretty clear that it is a whole new class of aircraft(beating expert F-15 pilots 3 to 1 is no joke) and it is stealthier than anything else that provides similar capabilities.
B-52 reverse-Stealth System (Score:4, Interesting)
A similar idea had been proposed for the B-52's a few years ago. Since you can't really make such a craft stealth, how do you keep them viable.
Well B-52s are mainly used in one of two capacities. Single bomber support role, carpet bombing (albeit with more intelligent bombs these days) in prep for a land transaction. Or the more purposeful original intention of a strategic bomber. In which case a whole flight of bombers would be sent out to level much foe.
But with radar and missiles, how can such aircraft get to their targets.
I used to work on a 90ft schooner (sailboat for the landlubbers). Anyways, we had a radar reflector that would make us show up much larger on radar.
The idea was to go the opposite route. Instead of stealth, have all the B-52's light up those radars as bright as they can. So instead of seeing the large B-52 on the radar you'd see something akin to the size of the ships in Independence Day. Huge giant radar blob. In fact dozens of giant radar blobs.
So yes, you'd know something was coming. The radar makes that clear. But trying to pin point it's exact position and mobilize fighters becomes more challenging because well, it's showing up in almost a mile of air space or more. I don't think the Air Force ever went thru with the expense. But one never knows...it might have been done and listed as $200 toilet seats.
Re:Microprose (Score:2, Interesting)
Sounds like F15 and F117 sims had some interesting fuel/speed-related glitches.
Ben Rich's Account of the F-117 (Score:2, Interesting)
My favorite story is Mr. Rich and a young sergeant standing outside a missle command trailer watching the F-117 go over. Rich goes into the van, and the Marines have no clue. They do pick up a bogie, but it's the T-38 chase plane that was several MILES behind the F-117....
Re:What are they working on now? (Score:4, Interesting)
The SR-71 is one of my all time favorite planes. One has to remember it was built with 1960's tech, as such digital computers and camera's weren't available yet.
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:5, Interesting)
You always knew when they were going to launch one because they would start sending out tankers (3 to 4) a good hour or so before they launched the Blackbird.
Re:Across the water (Score:1, Interesting)
Very few Americans will admit that. It's all USA USA USA F-22 Fuck Yeah! Of course vectored thrust is pretty neat, but now that they've started putting it on the missiles - "dogfighting" has become obsolete. You just have to watch the vids of the new missiles and see them leap off the rail, do a complete 180 and nail the drone that's flying BEHIND the shooting plane... gotcha. No more "best turn rate wins". Now it's who's got the better fire control radar and the better missiles.
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:5, Interesting)
More curious to me was the fact that the one we refueled had two LOX tanks, contrary to the manual's statement of only one. It had the normal one under the cockpit, and a second one in the airframe between the wings/engines. I surmise the second was a propulsion system oxidizer. The JP-7 fuel being a kerosene, the combination with LOX would have given it the propulsion profile of rocket motors being used from 1945 on. As a constantly afterburning ramjet at speed, the engines could have easily been adapted to do this.
And frankly I don't recall the one we loaded as having leaked, from hoses-on to taxi-out.
The F-22 is impressive to see (Score:5, Interesting)
No... (Score:3, Interesting)
> replaced by the F-22 Raptor
No it's not. The F-22 is an air-superiority fighter that is replacing the F-15 in that role. The F-117 is being replaced by nothing.
This retirement leaves the USAF with no dedicated long-range tactical interdictors at all. While this gives them an excuse to fly the otherwise ridiculously overpriced B-1 and B-2 on these missions, it also means that in a hot-war they have a very real capability shortfall past the range of the F-16 or F-35.
Maury
Re:I still want to know... (Score:2, Interesting)
SR71 took JP7 (Score:4, Interesting)
Not really. Depending upon the grade, it's its own distillate from the stack.
There's different grades of jet fuel. For the SR71, it was a very special blend, closer to diesel then kerosine, but still designed to be liquid in both far colder and far hotter temperatures.
The match trick works fine with it, for example.
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:3, Interesting)
Risks and rewards. (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't see that as particularly ironic. Just another example of the way things tend to get inverted when dealing with the use or threat of force - the "economy of negative value".
To deter or defeat aggressors - whether schoolyard bullies, criminals, or political aggressors - you need to be willing to RISK lives. But the goal is to attain some purpose, not to die. (When you must die, you try to sell your life as dearly as possible. But it's still better to accomplish the objective AND be alive to accomplish another.)
Making "dying in battle" a goal (rather than an unfortunate mishap) leads to poor strategy. While it does make it harder to turn the fighter away from his attack, it makes him prone to trade his life away cheaply. He'll go after low-value high-risk targets rather than picking off a low-risk target and getting away or attacking something of high value with a high risk of interception and incarceration. (You see a lot of this in the Middle East.)
It's not a very useful plane (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:1, Interesting)
Here's a hint: it's all about conditions. After all, jet engines burn jet fuel quite nicely, thank you; the correct conditions for easy combustion are deliberately created in the engine's combustion chamber. Unfortunately, sometimes empty or mostly-empty fuel tanks have the correct density of fuel fumes, oxygen, and ambient temperature to support a fuel-air explosion, given an ignition source, so it's very possible to have a bad day.
As a matter of fact, the very U.S. military you believe shot the plane down requires nitrogen purge systems on fuel tanks in its large transport aircraft. They install a liquid nitrogen tank somewhere onboard and use it to feed cold dry nitrogen gas into emptying fuel tanks so there's little or no oxygen to support fume combustion. Unfortunately this is viewed as too high an operational cost for commercial airliners, though I believe the NTSB and maybe even the FAA have pushed for requiring nitrogen purge in airliners in the wake of TWA 800.
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:3, Interesting)
That looks like the end of the world.
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:5, Interesting)
Its reported speed of Mach 3.2 was based on an average speed over a course; that wasn't necessarily the top. A Major Brian Shul reports having sustained Mach 3.5 at 80k ft. And an ex-USAF security police enlisted reports having guarded on in Thailand, and the pilot wore astronaut's wings (USAF astronaut standard is 50 miles, or 264k ft.). The former wouldn't require the mod I described, but the latter would have. The pressure suit used would have allowed flight to this altitude. In fact it does and then some -- it is the suit worn during ascent of the Space Shuttle.
I spoke with a colleague at another SAC base, and he "wouldn't deny" having seen one or more with this mod, but wouldn't say more.
The Blackbird had no effective stealth capability, so if one were still flying it'd be easily seen on today's modern radar and IR devices. Space program/satellite fans would have reported seeing something fitting the profile. Although I can only surmise what the second LOX tank was for, I have no doubt that if I saw it again, and the second fill port weren't removed, I could ID it.
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:What are they working on now? (Score:3, Interesting)
Travelling through Madrid airport in the summer of 2003 there was a series of display cases with every Lockhead Martin aircraft every made. Gorgeous little wooden carvings. When I saw this beauty [flickr.com] I nearly dropped from shock. Then I walked backwards on the travelator to snap the pic - hence the horrible blur. There is also a closeup [flickr.com].
Either somebody in the marketing department made a career ending mistake, or someone in the modelling department had some fun with the spanish public. There should be enough plane nuts on these here threads to decide...
Re:What are they working on now? (Score:1, Interesting)
My other guess is that the fighters we're seeing now will probably be the last generation of manned aircraft for that particular role. This is because the human element is the only thing seriously limiting the performance envelope. Fighters are pretty useless with a pilot that's been blacked out inside. Next step will probably employ virtualized operation from a ground based or forward air based command and control center. (Fighter jockeys will be flying by what is essentially a fancy R/C setup with VR helmets and sim cockpit modules.) If we start seeing stealthy planes for refueling and electronics intelligence, it shouldn't be long before drone squadrons operated by similar command and control aircraft are a reality. Drone fighters will have multiple advantages: in flight turnover to avoid fatigue, automating the boring parts of the mission, being expendable if necessary, and being able to manuver in ways that would kill pilots if you tried it in a manned aircraft.
Re:Fuel leaking SR-71's (Score:2, Interesting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-21_Tagboard [wikipedia.org]
http://www.habus.org/revealed/pics/gallery/a12drone.jpg [habus.org]
http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/771/504805.JPG [dkimages.com]
I loved that plane,.. thanks to Microprose.. (Score:3, Interesting)
(Admitedly they change the name / details somewhat) but god damn that was a brilliant simulation for the C64, really great gameplay - well thought out levels and sadly it even taught me some geography (I still know where those SAMS are located in the Libyan campaigns)