Tesla Motors Opens Retail Store

Tesla Motors has opened their first retail store front to allow the masses access to their new cars. Of course, this is assuming you can afford the $109,000 price tag. "The company told the Associated Press that it is impressed with demand: it has taken 600 orders for the Roadster and has a waiting list of another 400. CEO Elon Musk owns the first one produced. The fancy showroom near Beverly Hills takes its inspiration from Apple stores, Musk said. [...] The company plans to make a luxury sedan next year called the Whitestar that will come in two versions: an all-electric model that will run entirely on its lithium ion battery pack, and a range-extended vehicle that will also use liquid fuel to extend its range. The Roadster will have a range of 220 miles per charge and the mileage equivalent of 135 miles per gallon."

Congrats, Tesla

[Rei]

And, for those of you with more down to earth budgets, there's always Aptera [youtube.com], which starts shipping this winter (although reservations are filled through almost the end of '09 already). 2+1 seater, hyperefficient, space-age styling, 120 miles for all-electric or 40 miles electric + 130mpg. Test drives and factory tours start in a month or so.

If they bring it to the US (probably around the 2010 timeframe), there Mitsubishi i-EV [youtube.com] -- 4 seater, 100 miles, styled like a cross between a VW beetle and a PT cruiser, or perhaps between a Prius and a minivan.

There's also the Chevy Volt [youtube.com], late 2010, a 4 seater PHEV (40 miles electric, 50mpg after that) with "chopped" styling (I find it ugly, but a lot of people find it "sporty").

Lastly, as a bit more of a long shot, there's the VentureOne [youtube.com], a tandem two-seater cross between a car and a motorcycle that tilts into turns. 120 miles in the EV version, and should be pretty efficient, too.

Tesla Roadster in the Automotive X Prize

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla plans to compete for the Automotive X Prize, maybe with the Roadster (see Roadster Stat Page [xprizecars.com]), but more likely with the mentioned "Whitestar", about which nobody knows anything except that it has 4 seats and an optional range-extending ICE. The Roadster is actually only borderline able to compete - they have trouble with the 200 grams/mile CO2-equivalent emissions requirement. So it's likely they would have to drive slow (such a shame!).

Re:Air Bags

[dapyx]

It includes only "regular" air-bags, having an exemption from the "advanced" air-bag systems, which have been required in the United States since 1998. Such exemptions are common for compact roadsters, including Ferrari.

Re:Neat!

[Rei]

Cars like the Tesla will never come down in price that much, and even if they did, you wouldn't be able to afford upkeep on the batteries (they use laptop cells; they pamper them, but even still, that LiCoO2 cathode is still going to kill the cells after several years). Tesla is simply not designed around low price; it's designed around performance and range for a high-end target customer.

Now, this doesn't mean that *EVs* won't come down in price. There are already a number of them coming out (see my post further down) with prices in the $25-30k range that'll give you 0-60 in 7-10 seconds and 100-120 miles range, with the whole range of modern safety and comfort features. They use less energy-dense variants of li-ion, such as phosphates and spinels, that have vastly superior lifespans that should last at least a decade, and probably last the lifespan of the vehicle. The batteries should also be cheaper once they enter mass production due to their much cheaper raw ingredients.

Here's the Link

[Evets]

Oddly, the Tesla Motors website was missing from both the slashdot submission and the article.

http://www.teslamotors.com/ [teslamotors.com]

A fool and his money

[ChrisCampbell47]

... are soon parted.

Tesla's claims are terribly fraudulent [thetruthaboutcars.com]. 220 mile claimed range has already been shown to be as low as 93 miles. Transmissions seem to be vaporware. For that matter, so are production cars, as not a single one has been delivered (I don't count the single unit "delivered" to Elon Musk.

Tesla sounds cool, as do electric vehicles in general (including plug-in hybrids), but this is just another operation preying on people with too much money and not enough brains. I am firmly in the camp of those planning to buy an EV/PHEV soon, but I'm not drinking the Tesla Kool-Aid.

Re:Air Bags

[sm62704]

I'd like an "off" switch for the air bags. Tami's under five feet tall, which makes air bags dangerous and even deadly for her.

Re:That's cheap!

[AutopsyReport]

I would correct your mistake, but I run the risk of being modded Informative.

Re:I don't see the point...

[llZENll]

It's a dealership! No normal mechanics are trained or certified to repair or maintain Teslas cars, so they have to open a dealership in every area they wish to sell cars.

"Tesla Motors will service your car at our Tesla Stores. We plan to open the first Tesla Stores in our five key markets (metropolitan San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, and Miami), each offering direct sales and support for buyers and owners. Our first two stores will open in early 2008."

Re:Neat!

[tompaulco]

I pay about $2500 a year on gas. Yet if I had an electric car, I don't think it would really save me all that much because my local Electric company has the nerve to charge me for the electricity I use. Currently I pay about $2000 a year, but I imagine that would probably go up substantially if I had an electric car that needed charging up every day.

Re:Neat!

[LandDolphin]

the Verdienstkreutz Deutscher Adler, aka the Grand Service Cross of the Supreme Order of the German Eagle

Re:A fool and his money

[Rei]

The transmission problem is interesting. Basically, they had this neat idea to do clutchless shifting by having the motor controller adjust the RPM during the shift. The problem was something that they didn't count on: the motor had too much rotational inertia, so they couldn't adjust the RPM fast enough. So, the motor would tear up the transmission. It wasn't that the transmission was somehow bad; it was just that their idea was unworkable.

Tesla gets its stated range... if you drive it like a normal car. If you drive it like a sports car, no surprise, your range gets reduced, just like you get worse mileage on high power gasoline cars when you actually exploit their power instead of driving them normally.

Re:Neat!

[plague3106]

Same operating costs? Doubtful. You don't need a transmission, alternator or a host of other components of common cars today, so that's much cheaper. And assuming TM is accurate in the price of a full charge being less that $5, you won't have to pay the ~$3 / gallon of gas which ISN'T tax.

Nyet

[zogger]

It is much cheaper to get the equivalent energy at average US electric rates per mile driven then using either gasoline or diesel. It is something ludicrously cheaper like a few cents a mile. couple of quick googlized refs here http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/ [ecoworld.com]
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/electric-car1.htm [howstuffworks.com]

Granted, eventually you'll have to treplace the batts, but if they last ten years and the R&D goes on for ten years, I imagine tomorrow's prices will be considerable less for better quality batteries. And like gas cars, they will depreciate as you drive them off the lot, probably unless you get a collector car, like these first run Teslas will be. I don't see anyone actually losing money on them if they can afford the upfront costs. And for that matter, anyone who can afford one of these cars could also afford a solar rig setup to keep them charged, eventually that is paid off and it is more or less free driving.

The government will most likely go to odometer readings to charge taxes though, that will screw with your cost per mile again.

No free lunch, but you can get a cheaper lunch, and going all electric with personal production means eventually at least the cost of the fuel will be free, just leaving minimal maintenance and taxes.

I am not sure, but I bet the cheapest way right now for joe sixpack to get a functional all electric car that isn't exotic or supremely cobjobbed would be to get a well used prius, rip out the gas engine and tank (save them for later, see next), add additional batteries, now you have a full electric with some legs and it weighs less most likely. I don't know if anyone has done this yet, I know they made plugins that mean you lose most cargo space for the additional batts, but carrying around two engines, the ICE and the electric, plus the gas tank, plus the batteries, is just lame, it works but it is stoopid, twice as much weight as you want or need. The hybrid idea is OK- but not in the same frame, it is ridiculous really. The ICE and fuel tank need to be in a small trailer for trips, most of the time around town and commuting you can leave it unattached and just run pure electric. I could even see people not even buying the ICE trailer part if they only needed it a few times a year and just renting it on the odd weekends they need one.

Re:Where does the electricity come from?

[danzona]

Instead of filling your car with gas, you're using coal/oil power plants instead. I don't see what the true benefit really is.

I'm not sure if you are deliberately being obtuse, but in the US we get our electric power from the following (approximately, source: Wikipedia)
Coal: 49%
Natural gas: 20%
Nuclear: 19%
Hydroelectric: 7%
Other: 5%

You may not be American though, so in case you are French, you get your electric power from the following:
Nuclear: 78%
Hydroelectric: 11%
Coal: 4%
Natural gas: 4%
Other: 3%

Using a gasoline engine will never rid the US of dependency on foreign oil. Using a non gasoline engine, coupled with an energy program that emphasizes alternatives to fossil fuels has the possibility of ridding the US of dependency on foreign oil.

Re:Meaningless phrase

[compro01]

a gallon of gas has a semi-standard amount of energy. ~125,000 BTUs, ~131.8 megajoules or ~36.6 kilowatt-hours.

then just do distance/energy (miles and whatever energy unit above) and use that factor to get the equivalent MPG.

Re:Where does the electricity come from?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Where does our electricity for our homes come from? Fossil fuels?

In addition to the points others have made, such as:
  - Not all grid power is from fossil fuels.
  - Grid fossil fuel plants are more efficient.
it should be noted that a car can get a LOT better mileage-equivalent if it doesn't have to burn fuel to carry a heat engine around with it.

Also: Like a hybrid, an electric can recycle a lot of the power that would otherwise be lost to braking or engine-braking - either stop-and-go traffic or downhill driving - rather than burn more fuel to replace it later.

The batteries and motor have to be cooled.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

While lithium batteries are very efficient they still lose a small percentage of their power when operating. Electric motors do as well, and their controlling electronics ditto. Designing a cooling system for all of the above was a significant part of designing the car.

Two horsepower is 1491+ watts - about the power of the largest space heater you can run on a 15-amp circuit.

So keeping the batteries warm enough to operate efficiently in cold climates shouldn't be a problem - just restrict the cooling until they're warmed up. And while I don't know how the designers of the Tesla heat it, scavenging this "lost heat" to warm the passenger compartment, just as internal-combustion cars use cooling-system heat for the same purpose, would make sense.

The harder problem would be COOLING the vehicle in hot climates. (But since stealing power to air condition the vehicle tends to cost less in "mileage" than opening windows for ventilation and trashing the air friction, I suspect that the car will be air-conditioned despite the loss of "mileage".)

Re:Not entirely accurate either

[Wolfkin]

However, if you lived in a place with sane electricity prices, like where I currently live, that 75 kilowatt hours would cost you ~$7, or about the same as two gallons of gas.

Re:That's cheap!

[roman_mir]

and there I thought your post was not simply funny, and that it was in fact informative.

Re:Neat!

[Pragmatix]

In Virginia at least, gas tax money is separate from the General Fund and cannot be used for anything other than transportation related initiatives.

In fact, we recently had a pretty big budget shortfall, and even though I am sure the politicians wanted to pillage the transportation fund, they couldn't. I think only in emergency cases where one of the state entitlement programs (like pensions or medicare) is about to fail can the money be tapped.