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Canada Considering A Three Strikes And You're Off The Internet Policy? 470

Techdirt is reporting that Canada may be considering a "three strikes" policy which could see users internet access privileges revoked for file sharing violations. "Given how secretive the industry and the government have been about new copyright laws, perhaps this isn't too surprising. We do know that the industry was pushing for greater ISP liability as part of copyright law changes a few months back, so it wouldn't be surprising if ISPs were negotiating a "three strikes" type rule to avoid the liability issues. Of course, they probably want to keep it secret, as publicity (and resulting anger) about these types of laws in Europe has at least some politicians moving away from them. However, as the entertainment industry does keep succeeding in getting these types of laws to move forward, how long will it be before similar laws are proposed in the US, with "everyone else is doing it" as part of the reasoning?"
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Canada Considering A Three Strikes And You're Off The Internet Policy?

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  • by Archangel Michael ( 180766 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:49PM (#23381844) Journal
    I'd suggest that this law not be so one sided.

    How about a three strikes provision against the *IAA (or equivalent) as well. This way, if they accuse falsely three times, they get tossed. Seems only fair to me. :-D
  • by PC and Sony Fanboy ( 1248258 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:51PM (#23381886) Journal
    I'm canadian, and every time something controversial is proposed, the american media jumps all over it and says 'Canada is going to [insert crazy idea here]'.

    The way laws are passed here makes it very difficult for something controversial to pass, unless it is a human rights case. AND, even in the event that the federal government does pass a law, each province can ignore it by using the 'not-withstanding clause'.

    It sure is a horrible idea, but it would go against so many of our other laws that it would be struck down as soon as it was challenged even if it did get through the 3 readings and the senate and house of commons.

    I'd have to say that this sort of law would be much more likely in a place like the USA, where the government has already revoked so many of the rights of the citizens in the name of national security. I wonder how much pressure it would take to claim that piracy is a matter of national economic security...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:54PM (#23381920)
    File sharing? FILE SHARING? You gotta be joking! Oh, no, let's ignore.. oh I don't know... sexual predators... or, identity theft... and jump straight to the fsck'n FILE SHARING!

    That's it! I declare that the world has gone insane. Driven by corporate greed and stupidity!
  • No go (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ^_^x ( 178540 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:54PM (#23381926)
    Well, first off that would be illegal considering we already pay a levy to compensate for THEORETICAL copyright violations whenever we buy blank media. It is against the law to tax people for nothing at all (you at least have to have a "reason" even if it is not followed through on) so for this to happen they would have to repeal it. I don't see that as likely since not a cent AFAIK has gone to actually compensate artists - it's going straight into the government's pockets like a sin tax, and they're far too greedy to give up such easy money for doing nothing.
  • Good but... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by LWATCDR ( 28044 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:55PM (#23381946) Homepage Journal
    Will they then repeal the media tax?
  • Re:Sounds good (Score:5, Insightful)

    by scipiodog ( 1265802 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:56PM (#23381966)

    This is actually a very good point, in my opinion.

    Seriously, with the importance of the Internet in everyday life, is there a case that this actually infringes on a person's civil rights, or at least on their basic rights?

    Yes, I know Internet usage is not a civil right per se. However, in the USA and Canada, it's becoming extremely difficult to carry out certain basic functions off line. When is the last time you looked up something in a "phone book" made of paper?

    Banning someone from internet access for something so trivial would severely restrict their life, IMHO.

  • Re:sigh.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by linuxpyro ( 680927 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:59PM (#23382020)
    Dear Intelligent, Competent, and Caring People,

    Please consider running for office and giving us more options than shills, shysters, and despots.

    Thanks
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:07PM (#23382140)
    ...and the wealthy get really upset whenever something valuable is also abundant. The creation of artificial supply limitations, as a means of maintaining wealth and power, is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

    You cannot escape this by relocating. Stand and fight. Hold your ground. It is the only way to get what you want.
  • by greenbird ( 859670 ) * on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:10PM (#23382188)

    I'm canadian, and every time something controversial is proposed, the american media jumps all over it and says 'Canada is going to [insert crazy idea here]'.

    The way laws are passed here makes it very difficult for something controversial to pass, unless it is a human rights case. AND, even in the event that the federal government does pass a law, each province can ignore it by using the 'not-withstanding clause'.

    Yeah, because we all know the Canadians would never pass a stupid law [wired.com] at the behest of certain industry lobby groups or one that eliminated your ability to criticize [slashdot.org] certain groups because they might be offended by your criticism. And even if such stupid laws were passed they would be ignored by the provinces.

  • by ducman ( 107063 ) <[moc.desab-ytilaer] [ta] [todhsals]> on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:10PM (#23382194)
    I think the most worrying thing about this is not the law itself. It's the fact that someone will quickly realize that in order to implement the law it will be necessary for anyone accessing the Internet to be reliably identified. We really could be only a few years away from needing a "RealID" card to log on to a public wireless terminal in a coffee shop.
  • It started in schools, and quickly moved to the US Justice system. "Three Strikes And You're Out!". It sounds both reasonable, and incredibly American at the same time. If you've been in jail 2 times already and then steal a loaf of bread... "You're Out". By which they mean out of society for good. It's worked out so well, why not try it with the Internet?

    Here's the problem. In baseball, if you get three strikes - you're out for that particular try at batting. You're not out for the inning, you're not out for the game, and you're certainly not banned from ever playing baseball again for life.

    So, if we're going to base public policy on sports rules, could we at least restrict that to sports rules we actually understand? Seriously, that'd be a great start. Later we work on basing them on common sense or something.
  • Re:sigh.... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:13PM (#23382242)
    Dear linuxpyro,

    When given more options than shills, shysters, and despots, please make sure that said shills, shysters, and despots don't end up with 99.5% of the vote anyway.

    Thanks,
    Intelligent, Competent, and Caring Person
  • by alvinrod ( 889928 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:13PM (#23382250)
    Unfortunately, this still wouldn't do much if anything to prevent movie or song piracy. Have they forgotten that pirating music is as easy as purchasing a CD or DRM-free song and simply burning a CD and giving it to a friend? At best this just stops a few poeple from having an Internet connection, but when they could easilly haul a 500 GB external HD over to a friends house and load up all on manner of content, there's no way that it will curb the overall level of piracy to any extent. Hell, even if you were cut off, internet is only an unsecure access point or location with free internet away.

    There are always going to be a certain subset of people who feel that prices are too high and will seek alternative methods of acquiring songs, movies, or any other similar form of media. They could probably reduce the price to reduce the amount of people who resort to such methods, but the current price might be the one that maximizes revenue for all I know.

    Personally, I think the ideal solution is for the bands, songwriters, et al. to ditch the **AA (or equivalent in their countries) and use a model similar to what Radiohead or Trent Reznor used. Even when they offered their music for free, some people still donated money. Hell, if they were independent and sold tracks through Amazon, iTunes, or some other music store they'd get to keep everything that Amazon, Apple, etc. doesn't keep to cover distribution costs. That'd be somewhere in the neighborhood of $.75 or more per song sold. How much more likely would the poeple who either don't buy music now or refuse to pay the currents rates be to donate money to a band for purchasing their album if they knew that most of it wasn't going to a middleman that has a history of acting hostile towards its customers or that they would only need to offer up a few dollars, if anything?
  • Re:sigh.... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by genner ( 694963 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:15PM (#23382274)
    We would but no one gives us campagin money.
  • by Shagg ( 99693 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:15PM (#23382276)
    Three strikes of actually being found guilty in a court of law, or three strikes of wild accusations thrown around by anybody with content to protect (and very little, if any, proof)?
  • Re:sigh.... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by morgan_greywolf ( 835522 ) * on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:15PM (#23382284) Homepage Journal
    Dear linuxpyro,

    Where would we get the money needed for an election campaign? They only seem to be handing it out to shills, shysters and despots these days.

    Thanks,
    Association of Intelligent, Competent, and Caring People
  • Re:Sounds good (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:22PM (#23382406)

    When is the last time you looked up something in a "phone book" made of paper?
    When was the last time you searched for a specific product located in your neighborhood online and got results like 'Buy here!' Where here is a town 3 states away.
  • by SilverJets ( 131916 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:23PM (#23382418) Homepage
    Dear everyone,

    Please actually read the article that is linked. The French are reporting that apparently the Canadians are considering implementing this policy. That's second hand hearsay at best. And the quote included in the Slashdot article is from whomever made the original post on Techdirt.

  • by QCompson ( 675963 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:23PM (#23382422)

    File sharing? FILE SHARING? You gotta be joking! Oh, no, let's ignore.. oh I don't know... sexual predators... or, identity theft... and jump straight to the fsck'n FILE SHARING!
    "Sexual predators" are hardly being ignored. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of law enforcement agents sitting around in chat rooms right now pretending to be 14 year old girls in the hope that some idiot will talk with them and try to arrange a meeting. And, at least in the US, being caught as an internet sexual predator is not a three-strikes offense. It is a one-strike offense, with the end result likely being a long prison term and lifetime sex offender registration (along with heavy computer usage restrictions in many states).

    This is (ahem) child's play in comparison with the amount of resources allocated to stopping sexual predators online.
  • Re:Good but... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by PC and Sony Fanboy ( 1248258 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:24PM (#23382442) Journal
    I like the media tax. It isn't much at all, really... and it makes file sharing legal, since I'm already paying for it.
  • My plan to escape American ISP's and DMCA madness by going to Canada has been foiled!
    What the USA has, the right wingers of Canada desire.
    And since the Conservative party is in power in Canada, what the USA does, Canada does a year later.
  • by ebbomega ( 410207 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:31PM (#23382560) Journal
    What would you prefer to live in, a country that taxes you for data in light of the unavoidable piracy that the internet brings

    OR

    a country that allows recording companies to sue their customers for substantially more per CD indiscriminately without attention to proper due process to extort money out of people who can't afford lawyers?

    One seems the lesser of two evils. I'm happy with the one I'm given.
  • by StreetStealth ( 980200 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:33PM (#23382592) Journal
    Proposed legislation like this is based on an out-of-date mindset that internet access is some sort of above-and-beyond privilege to be closely regulated.

    To people who have worked in the paper-laden chambers of legislative bodies for many years and have their assistants print out their e-mails for them to read, perhaps it still looks this way to them. But it is not.

    Enough daily tasks, both personal and public, now require access to the internet such that I think it's time for internet access to be considered a civil right, to be suspended only for those genuinely too dangerous to remain at large.

    Denying internet access isn't like a sentence of probation anymore; it's more akin to house arrest and should only be applied when the punishment fits the crime.
  • by Duradin ( 1261418 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:39PM (#23382678)
    Free Speech is a right everywhere. Governments do not grant rights.

    Canadians have the right of free speech, however they allow their government to deny them the ability to exercise their natural right.
  • Re:sigh.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eln ( 21727 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:42PM (#23382730)
    It's easy to generate campaign money. All you have to do is become a shill, shyster, or despot and the money comes rolling in.
  • Solution is simple (Score:3, Insightful)

    by unity100 ( 970058 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:44PM (#23382750) Homepage Journal
    make a fuss about such stuff BEFORE they are even conceived. blow your representative's ears off with calls before they even hear of such a proposal or see it on their desk. do it now.
  • by Eco-Mono ( 978899 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:49PM (#23382816) Homepage

    Let me just take this opportunity to say that I am sick and tired of articles about some law that might be getting proposed for initial review in some obscure corner of a legislature somewhere. It reminds me of that one time everyone jumped down the Pope's throat for something that an editorialist speculated he'd be commenting on in his next encyclical. It's idle speculation. It's not even vaporware; we haven't heard anyone in the government say two bits about it, either for or against!

    C'mon, editors. I'm told you used to be more selective than to post this kind of nonsense. :/

  • Depends really (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:51PM (#23382846)
    I talked to a gentleman yesterday who could only get dialup access where he lived, so he never used the internet (too slow). For 5 years this person never got on the net, he didn't even know what google was (try explaining every aspect and function of Google to somebody with no background.)

    MOST people use the net daily, but older folks really don't depend on it.
  • by Beardo the Bearded ( 321478 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:56PM (#23382916)

    it's time for internet access to be considered a civil right, to be suspended only for those genuinely too dangerous to remain at large.

    Denying internet access isn't like a sentence of probation anymore; it's more akin to house arrest and should only be applied when the punishment fits the crime.
    Indeed.

    Now, who gets to say what is "too dangerous" to be allowed Internet access?

    Let's say I download (and legally, I might add) several gigs of mp3s. Apparently, this is causing millions of dollars in damages. Therefore, if I continue to have internet access, I am personally costing various industries millions of dollars a day!

    I'm a dangerous person. I'm exactly like a professional shoplifter. Except, weirdly enough, those guys still get to buy groceries FROM STORES.

    As always, contact your local MP.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:09PM (#23383072)
    There is no situation in which a person should be denied access to the internet. Kevin Mitnick's situation was a miscarriage of justice. Proposing "rules based" solutions for technical problems is the best way to prevent effective and much more efficient technical solutions. And, there is no way to keep someone from accessing the internet without creating an unnecessary, corrupt, and extremely inefficient infrastructure. And it likely would fail to do the stated task.
  • by BlueshiftVFX ( 1158033 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:31PM (#23383430)
    It must be easier for some people to mod you a troll then to accept the possibility that you may be right.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:50PM (#23383692)
    If you can restrict where people can assemble, then so much for freedom of assembly.

    Look at the extremes the governments go to in repressive regimes like russia or china or america to control the internet.

    Making it trivial to ban someone from the most democratic communication tool since the soap box seems a poor road to follow.

  • Telephones too? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:50PM (#23383702)
    Should we deny telephone usage to telemarket scammers and car use for those guilty of speeding 3 or more times?

  • by hvm2hvm ( 1208954 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:53PM (#23383748) Homepage
    Yeah, it's weird.. I mean he is obviously not a troll, he speaks, thinks and everything. Some trigger happy guy saw the AC score 0 and thought 'Fuck him, I have mod points, I'm god now'. Or maybe 'The world is all pink and fuzzy, nothing bad is going to happen if I ignore it and don't stand for myself'.
  • by Lijemo ( 740145 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:55PM (#23383762)

    how about you people just learn to obey the fucking law and stop stealing music and movies? who give a shit what happens to people ho dont give a shit about the content creators.

    Ah, so there is no need to make the punishment fit the crime, because you can avoid the punishment by just not doing the crime?

    In that case, lets institute a no-appeals death penalty for speeding, jay-walking, minor traffic violations, and late payment of income taxes. After all, who cares what happens to people who break the law?

  • by chdig ( 1050302 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @07:28PM (#23385606)
    While what you wrote is true, it's also misleading and missing in context.
    1 - Though there is a minority government, it's common practice for the parties to barter votes between issues. ie, if the opposition wants bill xx passed, they might agree to the government's copyright bill. True, though, it is more difficult to pass normal votes without a majority.
    2 - non-confidence votes are primarily for financial issues (like the annual budget) or highly sensitive issues (like Canada's role in Afghanistan), and a copyright law would be very unlikely to fall under this category.

    The irony, however, is that the best way the government can pass something is to make or attach it to a non-confidence vote. The opposition is so scared of an election that they'll pass things they don't agree with, just to avoid an election.
  • Damn! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bill_kress ( 99356 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @08:31PM (#23386168)
    I saw that heading and thought the only logical possibility is that someone finally decided to block bots by taking them offline until their machines can be cleaned.

    I never imagined they were actually proposing something THAT stupid.

    I just don't have the imagination I used to.

    Look, this is a democracy (at least in theory) right? In the constitution we GIVE them copyright to their creation for a LIMITED time, ONLY so that it spurs innovation and gets more "IP" into the public domain for us all, right?

    Well, I'm done with this shit. I say we vote to eliminate copyright protection all-together, across the board. Let them deal with that. If they want to stop making music because of it, I'll live. I'd prefer to have my music made by people who would make it regardless of if they got paid or not.

    If every single lab suddenly decides they can't make medicine any more because it's too expensive, others will pop up with better, less expensive techniques. Foundations will still do a lot of the research anyway (how much do we donate to cancer research each year? When they come up with something--who will reap the benefits of the medicine developed?)

    Let's get rid of it! Maybe we can experiment with that for couple decades and see how it goes--if it fails, I'm totally up for trying something else.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @08:54PM (#23386344)

    Complaining about the wealthy: poor people's way of making themselves feel better about being lazy.

  • by level_headed_midwest ( 888889 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2008 @12:15AM (#23387634)
    Well of course it's higher than China and any number of corrupt regimes worldwide- you don't have to stick people you've shot dead in jail.
  • by dryeo ( 100693 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2008 @12:17AM (#23387646)
    This is Canada, there is no crime. The artists get compensated every time I back up my computer or screw up and make a coaster.
    Just because drinking is a crime in certain countries should we in Canada have to pay the penalty?
  • by TheVelvetFlamebait ( 986083 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2008 @12:24AM (#23387690) Journal
    Same thing could be said about money. You can copy it, and you don't deprive anyone of its use, yet it means that the entire currency is devalued, and the currency that everyone else has ends up worth less than it did before the crime. The victims in this case are the people as a whole. In the case of copyright infringement, the damages are concentrated purely to copyright holders. You may not see it (or counterfeiting) as stealing, but there's no question of deprivation, victimhood, or morality; copyright infringement and counterfeiting are morally wrong, when measured against the morality of society as a whole. And no, before you jump to conclusions, I'm not part of the copyright lobby, just someone with the ability to reason.

    All this, of course, is completely beside the point, as I wasn't comparing copyright infringement with stealing in the first place.
  • by TheVelvetFlamebait ( 986083 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2008 @12:40AM (#23387784) Journal
    It's not just you (as you probably know); there are several people with the same criteria for paying for content. Who knows, there could develop a significant, thriving market for free music. You trade off price potentially with selection and quality. Perhaps there really is a significant number of people who's demand for music could be satisfied entirely by free music, but we can't really tell while those people help fill that demand with illegal music. Even you, I don't know you, your means, your taste in music, etc, but I suggest you try living without illegal music for a year and subsist entirely on free music. You may find it harder than you expected, especially since people can underestimate the influence that non-free music has on their tastes. You will see if your principle is feasible in practice.

    If you can live for a long time only on free music, and not buy/download a single piece of non-free music, then I grant you that it makes no difference whether or not you pirate it. However, it's a catch-22 in my favour, because if it truly doesn't make a difference to you, you don't need to break the law, and you wouldn't need to pirate anyway. But if you did for some insane reason, and you didn't advertise the fact, and you disabled uploads on any P2P network you use, then yes, your piracy wouldn't make a difference. The problem is the bar for that is set very high, not many people make it.
  • by LKM ( 227954 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2008 @02:05AM (#23388184)
    If you think both parties are still alike, you haven't learned anything during the past eight years.
  • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2008 @02:14AM (#23388238)
    On the other hand they keep trying their best to introduce new copyright bills and they keep withdrawing them in the face of public protest.

    If the Conservatives actually passed this kind of bill and all the people downloading music got kicked off the net, sued, charged, whatever, the next government would not be a Conservative one.

    Around here if you screw up you get voted out.
  • by TheVelvetFlamebait ( 986083 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2008 @03:32AM (#23388600) Journal
    No, but in the vast majority of cases, people don't just stick their illegal files on their hard-drives for decoration (there are far more legal ways to decorate your file-system!) They do the equivalent of spending it, which is to listen to it and to gain pleasure from it.
  • by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2008 @03:41AM (#23388644) Homepage

    You may not see it (or counterfeiting) as stealing, but there's no question of deprivation, victimhood, or morality; copyright infringement and counterfeiting are morally wrong, when measured against the morality of society as a whole.
    If money was worthless, we wouldn't use money. We would go back to the barter economy using things of real value, which might be expressed in dollars but isn't intrinsic to them. There's no way the physical value of that small roll of neatly printed paper equals the value of a car, money is just the representation of it. If I could print free money I'd be the richest man in the world because everything else is supposed to have an exchange rate to dollars, everyone else would get poorer because I've put in representations of value without contributing any value.

    I can copy around a public domain work all day long and people only get richer because the more people hear it the more people have gotten some utility from it, even though no money changes hands. In short, copying enriches people while counterfeiting deprives people of value. Restricting copying should not be a goal in itself, as certain people that want to treat ideas as real property with indefinate copyright and totally under the owner's control argue. Copyright should granted to promote the creation of works, not the perversion we see today.

    Yes, copyright holders are being deprived of value but if you want to talk morality I see far better arguments that copyright should be rebalanced to return some of the value not only given to the copyrigth holders, but also directly lost because of their restrictions returned to the people. I suppose you can read that as a "we want something for nothing" argument, but the truth is that copyright is a burden to society too. The mindless reproduction is one thing, but the limitation on derivates is restricting the free flow of thoughts and ideas and improvements which is the source of new works. I do think there should be reasonable compensation for coming up with new things, just not to hold them under lock and key almost forever.
  • by 2cute2kill ( 842451 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2008 @09:07AM (#23390118)
    The problem is that "eventually" can be a very long time.

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