Windows 7 Won't Have Compact "MinWin" Kernel 580
An anonymous reader points us to an interview Microsoft's Windows 7 development chief, Steven Sinofsky, did with CNet. He reveals that Windows 7 will be a further evolution of Vista, and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. "We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7; in fact, they'll work the same. We're going to not introduce additional compatibilities, particularly in the driver model. Windows Vista was about improving those things. We are going to build on the success and the strength of the Windows Server 2008 kernel, and that has all of this work that you've been talking about. The key there is that the kernel in Windows Server 08 is an evolution of the kernel in Windows Vista, and then Windows 7 will be a further evolution of that kernel as well."
hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Insightful)
shall we have a pool as to what will be next?
(and yes I know powershell was released as an addon)
Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Cookie at the end of the page - very fitting (Score:5, Insightful)
Guarranteed To Suck (Score:5, Insightful)
..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (Score:5, Insightful)
Cynical First Post (Score:4, Insightful)
So the scaling back of Featues begins (Score:2, Insightful)
Now the same with Windows 7. The more and more I hear about it the less I'm inclined to beleive that this new OS release will fix the problems that have been all too evident with Vista ( slow file copy, nagware etc etc etc) that the majority (non
Everything seems to being rushed out. I wonder how many cases of Duct tape are being deivered to Microsoft this month.
Remember the slogan 'The WOW starts
All I here is "WOW is it that bad"
Will it become worse that Vista? That is the $64 Zillion question.
So the difference is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not only could the average user not find an advantage in Vista over XP (remember, users rarely care what's under the hood, they just want to use the system), now even geeks won't see a difference between the old and the new system?
Ok, let's be constructive. We heard now what will not be different between Vista and "Windows 7". So what will? Because, well, if it's the same... I'm no marketing guru, but I guess even the marketing guys in Redmond might have a hard time selling the same product again.
Some old story... (Score:5, Insightful)
What was that really good filesystem we were going to see in Windows XP, sorry I mean Vista?
Oh right, this time it is because of backwards compatibility, rather then any other reason. But still, people keep saying it, why doesn't MS just dump the crud, go with a great new secure system (MinWin sounded like a good start), and use emulation to support all the old software?
With drivers (the specific reason given here), they could easily have a backwards compatible layer implemented above the microkernal for drivers that needed it.
Meh.
So? (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, Vista has it's problems, granted, but can any informed person here state what's so bad about the Kernel itself, since that's what's causing all the fuss??
Hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me guess ... no WinFS either? (Score:3, Insightful)
Who would have thought Microsoft could have figured out a way to sell *two* Windows licenses per machine (one for Vista, and one XP license when people downgrade)? It's brilliant! Well, as long as too many people don't switch to other alternatives, but en masse migration is a long way off. Still, it would be nice if Microsoft offered a more modern "Vista replacement OS" once Windows XP is completely phased out. Windows 7 could fit that bill.
Well, unless it is so bad people will want to downgrade to Vista. That's a scary thought.
It Seems Obvious... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, that follows the pattern.
Re:So the difference is... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not only could the average user not find an advantage in Vista over XP (remember, users rarely care what's under the hood, they just want to use the system), now even geeks won't see a difference between the old and the new system?
Ok, let's be constructive. We heard now what will not be different between Vista and "Windows 7". So what will? Because, well, if it's the same... I'm no marketing guru, but I guess even the marketing guys in Redmond might have a hard time selling the same product again.
Ah. You are of course young and inexperienced, and you are unaware of the completely new and reworked[1] Start menu, improved compositing[2], and 3D multiple desktops placed on the faces of a Modron Clippy-like Windows/Office assistant who will put all the Cancel or Allow? messages in a funny-looking message balloon for your convenience[3].
[1] pinched from KDE
[2] ditto from Compiz
[3] don't ask.
Wait. (Score:5, Insightful)
Could you guys just go back and evolve Windows 2000 instead?
4. Profit! (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Promise the next version will be a geek's wet dream
2. Over the course of the several years of development, slowly step away from each and every major feature
3. Release the new version which is, at best, a minor upgrade from the previous version.
4. Profit!
We are currently at step 2.
Re:Guarranteed To Suck (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:So? (Score:3, Insightful)
Unbelievable (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Disappointing (Score:1, Insightful)
Microsoft had a golden era ? are you NUTS ? MS DOS was obsolete the day it was released, and so were any iteration of windows 3, win95, win98.. when Microsoft was releasing a MS DOS shell, people were using multimedia stuff on amiga and atari, and when Microsoft got serious about the enterprise with Windows NT, people already had Unix based for years, in fact Unix is older than MS DOS.. come on man, nothing exciting got out of Microsoft, every OS they put out had features done better by the competition.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Insightful)
What about the ability to slow down a computer to the point that you need a new computer, so you have to buy a new computer with another copy of Windows preinstalled?
Doesn't that count as a technological advancement?
That said, I still haven't read of a single feature of Vista that would compel me to shell out any more of my hard-earned money.
Further evolution of Windows Vista? (Score:2, Insightful)
So that's 'further evolution' as in "we're dropping loads of cool new features". Microsoft really have lost the plot in the last few years, and Canonical [wikipedia.org] for one are willing to capitalize on any weakness on Microsoft's part. They may still have the market share to impress, but Microsoft are going to have to make Windows 7 count in order to regain the sort of mind share they've lost as of late.
Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Insightful)
shall we have a pool as to what will be next?
Not Quite (Score:2, Insightful)
Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cookie at the end of the page - very fitting (Score:4, Insightful)
Offtopic? Look, Steve, stop wasting your mod points and go throw a chair. That comment hit the nail right on the head. What are you Microsoft shills worried about? I find all Microsoft programs to be user-hostile, especially the OSes.
Moving stuff that you knew where it was to somewhere you have to hunt for it, as Microsoft does with every new program and operating system, is as hostile as you can get. It's not just hostile, it's downright mean.
The incredibly long number you have to type in when you install a Microsoft OS (XP, Vista, presumably 7) is hostile. Having to activate is hostile. To demand that I trust you without your trusting me is hostile, would you put up with that from a human being?
The allow/disallow I keep reading about in Vista sounds hostile as all getout. Maybe they're reducing the user-hostility by ridding Windows 7 of it? I doubt that.
Why does Microsoft seemingly hate its customers? It is user-hostile as a company and as such can't possibly write non-user-hostile OSes or programs.
If I see that comment when I metamoderate, whoever modded it won't be getting any more mod points. The same goes for whoever modded a href="http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=565875&cid=23568891">this comment offftopic as well. Are there any mods today that don't work for Microsoft? This is just too obvious.
Re:Guarranteed To Suck (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't remember hearing that Python's dying, but maybe I've not been listening carefully enough.
It does make you wonder what people are going to be using in a couple of years' time, with all of these platforms and languages dying out...
Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (Score:3, Insightful)
I found this announcement disappointing because I had hoped that MS would make that clean break with Windows, and deal with backward-compatibility using virtualisation. I was about to say so, and cite Apple's use of emulation in the move from OS 9 to OS X as an example.
It's not a like-for-like comparison, though, because Apple's market share was negligible, and any negative impact would have limited consequences.
If virtualised backward-compatibility was done badly in a hypothetical Windows clean break, the repercussions for Microsoft would have the potential to dwarf any of the current dissatisfaction with Vista. Losing market share after introducing the new product could be a critical blow to them.
On the other hand, losing market share before introducing their clean break product could put them in an advantageous position. So yes, your idea has some merit. Sadly, I think your final statement is the most insightful of everything you have said.
MUST be backwards compatible (Score:3, Insightful)
This is the exact reason why Microsoft keeps extending its flawed product while pretending to fix it.
whut? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm guessing you haven't used it, since you mention hearing it's dying, but not your own experience with it. You should give it a go, it's actually rather nice in its c# form.
Given that it is compatible with both Linux and Mac versions of
While your at it, try IronPython, the
Compatibility will be Perfect! (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course the drivers and software that run on vista are going to run on Windows 7. Clearly, all they're going to do is rebrand Vista, change some eye candy, and pray it sells thistime around!
They'd be doing it now, but they need to wait long enough that people will believe they've done some actual work on it.
Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Computers != Microsoft.
Re:Losing small businesses (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (Score:4, Insightful)
Write a new, well-designed OS.
What's wrong with the design ?
Include a minimalist Win32 environment in a VM sandbox. Basically, Wine for Windows to run legacy apps.
Ah. So basically the same thing they did with NT ?
Apple has done it twice.
MacOS Classic -> MacOS X (basically the same as DOS-based Windows -> Windows NT, only a bit over half a decade later).
What's the second one ?
The Wow(tm) starts Later(tm). (Score:4, Insightful)
Vista's uptake has been stupendous, with copies flying off the shelves and midnight queues on release day turning into major street riots, police deploying water cannons and rubber bullets, to rival the release scenes for the PlayStation 3 and the Zune. It is expected to give a significant boost to the computer hardware industry, per the Mended Windows Theory of economics. But Windows 7 aims even higher.
"We have a radical vision for Windows 7," says Steve Sinofsky, corporate vice-marketer for development. "It's definitely the one to wait for. You should avoid buying any other operating system or even looking at them until you see Windows 7
So what will be the coolest new feature in Windows 7? According to Sinofsky, that's still being worked out. "We're going to look at a fundamental piece of enabling technology. Maybe it's hypervisors, or a new user interface paradigm for consumers, or rotating cubes like in Ubuntu, or WinFS, which is definitely due to ship with Windows NT 4 in 1994. Or whatever Apple puts in Mac OS 10.6, really. Hell, I dunno. What's really shiny?"
The much-derided Digital Rights Management system in Vista will be worked over. "We'll be including user-downloadable 'tilt bits,' which you can configure to your own liking. It'll require every user to supply a blood sample for DNA analysis, but of course that's only if you want to play *premium* content."
Independent bloggers Wiki Jelliffe, Patrick Durusau and Alex Brown were incontinent in their praise. "I am so excited about $NEXT_VERSION of Windows. It will surely go beyond just solving all of the problems with $CURRENT_VERSION, it will be an entirely new paradigm. Forget about security problems, that will be all fixed with $NEXT_VERSION. And they?ll finally be ridding themselves of $ANCIENT_LEGACY_STUFF. Also there will be $DATABASE_FILESYSTEM. It?ll be awesome! I wonder how $NEXT_VERSION will compare to $NEXT_NEXT_VERSION."
"It's too early for me to talk about it," added Sinofsky. "But over the next few months I think you're going to start hearing more and more."
Re:So? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cookie at the end of the page - very fitting (Score:4, Insightful)
Saying "Microsoft sux" is not remotely insightful, and is just going to stir people up. Any idiot can do that. What one should do is what you did, saying "Microsoft sux" and listing why you think so. That provides something to the discussion... "Microsoft sux" by itself is just trolling/flamebaiting. (nb: I'm not the mod you're bitching at, I don't have mod points today. But if I did, that's how I would've modded it, and why.)
Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Vista's mistakes are understandable from a certain point of view.
Really, they should take a major hint from apple. Go ahead and make major transitions, but use virtualization to bridge the gap. Under no circumstances break compatibility.
C//
Re:Guarranteed To Suck (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cookie at the end of the page - very fitting (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds to me like you believe that anything you're not comfortable with is hostile, whether it's sensible or not.
It's a hostile world we live in.
Precendents and why Microsoft won't.... (Score:3, Insightful)
By it either by using compatibility layers like Wine (which reaching a 1.0 milestone) or using virtual machines like VirtualBox, VMWare, Xen, etc... (I saw the "seamless integration" mode of VMWare on a MacOS X and its really nice). And these virtual machines are only running out-of-the-box plain Windows on out-of-the-box plain hosts. Imagine what Microsoft could achieve, given that they control the software and can re-design the "free Windows XP / Vista virtual OS" to take special advantage of the system and integrate even better.
I think the main reason they're not doing it is exactly that :
they maintain their market monopoly by leveraging the lock-in people are experiencing because of thousand of legacy Windows applications that they depend on.
If Microsoft go the "Virtual OS" route, they'll suddenly bring to the general population's attention that their software runs perfectly inside virtual machines. The users would suddenly realise they might NOT be forced to pay once again a Microsoft upgrade tax. They could use a well integrated virtual machine on which ever OS they chose and simply keep their old Windows version for which they've already bought a license anyway to run their legacy applications inside a virtual machine.
Suddenly Microsoft would be at risk of seeing masses of users switching to VMWare fusion running on Macs or the then descendants of EEE PCs (which, I suspect, by then could have enough horse power for a virtual machine. Although maybe not a Vista one)
Re:Cookie at the end of the page - very fitting (Score:3, Insightful)
I won't be running it, but that's because I don't buy pre-built machines with a license included and don't really use the PC for gaming, so the lineup of freebie operating systems does me fine.
Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
We're rolling it out, even though none of the IT staff (just the manager) wants to. We just see it as being a hassle -- retraining the staff as well as ourselves -- with no real benefit, as all the software anyone needs to use works fine on XP.
Not to mention that we'll now be running an OS which contains code specifically designed to prevent the computer from working. We've already had one system fail to activate using our key management server, and we've only rolled out half a dozen. In a perverse way, I'm actually looking forward to when every desktop is running Vista and then decides it's not activated and nobody can do any work while we try to fix a problem caused by code that shouldn't be there in the first place. A high profile screwup like that could be the death knell for shitty license activation schemes.
Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:5, Insightful)
Ubuntu failed miserably to work for me.
Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Compatibility will be Perfect! (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course the drivers and software that run on vista are going to run on Windows 7. Clearly, all they're going to do is rebrand Vista, change some eye candy, and pray it sells thistime around!
They'd be doing it now, but they need to wait long enough that people will believe they've done some actual work on it.
Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:3, Insightful)
DirectX 10 is going to be it then. Ever more games are going to start requiring it to use the best features. Same with graphics cards. What's the point of building that ubber quad core gaming beast with a nvidia 90000^2 graphics adapter if you are using directx 9 and it only looks like you are running a 6600?
If you want to keep running the latest software, including games, on a PC then the upgrade to vista is inevitable as night and day. Or you could just buy a ps3 [sony] or a xbox 360 [microsoft] and be done with it. Yes, you can also buy a Wii but I don't think you will be playing GTA4 on it.
Re:..and will lose the rumored MinWin kernel. (Score:3, Insightful)
Because Apple didn't have to deal with 10,000+ poorly written, complicated mission critical applications cobbled together from bits and pieces of whatnot over the past two decades. That's what Windows runs in the Enterprise and medium sized business. That's what Windows 7 (8, 9, 11, whatever) has to continue to run over the next decade, at least. Because many companies might change their desktop environments, perhaps even the server, but migrating to a "new" mission critical application is going to be a slow, slow, painful, painful series of processes (McKesson and Dairyland, I'm looking at you today).
Re:3, 2, 1.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Driver compatibility will come with time as people like Nvidia get their act together.
Streamlining Vista can already be done though, it doesn't have to take a lot of resources unless you want all the eye candy and the resources. I think you still have a valid point, with all the work that went into it you would think it would work faster. Personally I don't notice any lag, but I'm running on new hardware.
It remains to be seen what Windows 7 will offer that will redeem it. The vast majority of people see no reason to go to Vista and as a home user I understand their feelings. As a sysadmin though I understand why Vista is the way it is and how it's desirable for a corporate environment.
It's the same basic issue that developed when the 9x line died and everything moved to NT. We can all agree that the NT model is far superior to the old real-mode model. The problem is that you have a business optimized OS being pushed on home users, in an attempt to make the home users happier you screw the business users and you end up with Vista where no one is happy.
Of course if the whole thing was more modular then it would be less of an issue. Then Microsoft would be doing what the Unix world has been doing for 40 years and what Apple caught on to a few years ago.
Big companies take a long time to adapt though, look how long it took IBM to recover from a failing business model, almost 10 years. I think Windows 7 will be Microsoft's wake-up call if Vista isn't already. Execs have a habit of being hard-headed about stupid things though so I wouldn't be surprised if that was holding things up.
Read the first sentance of each answer. (Score:3, Insightful)
- Well, that's a great question.
- There are a number of elements of the question...
- In a way that's a different question.
- What I think I want to say is what I just said...
- I didn't actually say that.
I know that I've just pulled some quotes out of context and sometimes that makes things look worse than they are, but does anyone else see my problems? Do you have a hard time even reading the answers? Very disappointing but, again not unexpected of Microsoft.Re:hmmmmm Vista... powershell ... winfs..... etc (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll take some slight inconvenience like needing to get a new wireless card to know that I'm not being prepped to be screwed over.
Re:forget WinFS? (Score:3, Insightful)
It was always a metadata layer built on top of NTFS.
I'm not going to do the research on this to provide links, but I'm 99.9% sure of this.
The bennies were an ubiquitous API and unified approach to this stuff, that any 3rd party software could use, and even end users directly could manipulate it.
The problem is it may not be relevant anymore. With horsepower and disk space so high nowadays compared to then, the simple brute force of the currently used desktop search systembs by MS and google work well and dont require a revolutionary product.