The SUV Is Dethroned 1234
Wired's Autopia blog documents what we all knew was coming: rising gas prices have killed off the SUV. Auto industry watchers had predicted that the gas guzzlers in the "light truck" category would lose the ascendancy by 2010; no one expected their reign to end in a month, in the spring of 2008. Toyota, GM, Ford, and now Nissan have announced they will scale back truck and SUV production and ramp up that of smaller passenger cars. Of course there will always be a market for this class of vehicle, but its days on the top of the sales charts are done. "'All of our previous assumptions on the full-size pickup truck segment are off the table,' Bob Carter, Toyota division sales chief said last week during a conference call with reporters. Translation — we have no idea how low they'll go."
Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
Still, I have to see it to believe it. The current generation of SUVs will inevitable end up in the hands of young drivers. Those will be even less aware of the extra dangers a SUV presents while being in traffic. The SUV craze will have a significant impact for the years to come.
I urge anyone who owns an SUV and/or considers buying one to read "Big And Bad" by Malcolm Gladwel [gladwell.com].
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
Fortunately, these young people will not be able to afford to drive these out of their driveway.
Any SUV owners reading this? Look forward to watching the second hand sale value of your vehicle plummet even while fuel costs rise to the point where you can no longer afford to drive your (now) useless vehicle.
Don't like it? Bad luck. You can't say you weren't warned.
This is how economics is supposed to work! (Score:4, Insightful)
Also interesting to see whether the trend of people sensing safety while in those large vehicles will continue... Not so easy to go back to sedans while there are so many dangerous SUVs (tanks) out there on the roads, eh?
--
Hey code monkey... learn electronics! [nerdkits.com]
This is the silver lining (Score:4, Insightful)
And may I be the first to say... (Score:2, Insightful)
Stupid Ford (Score:4, Insightful)
I use my Ranger mostly as a commuter vehicle, but we need a truck for weekend projects like landscaping and hauling stuff. I'd never even consider commuting with a gas guzzler like an F-150.
I hope they figure this out before they close their last Ranger lines down.
SUVs were always a missed opportunity. (Score:5, Insightful)
That the car manufactures executives don't owe shareholders money, much less recieve compensation at all, is an afront to anyone who's ever put in 15 minutes of honest work in their life.
Very easy to bring them back (Score:5, Insightful)
My guess is that one of these companies will get smart and soon deliver just this. It should have enough batteries to last at least 10-20 miles and 2 small generator-motors. The reason for 2 is that the likelihood of 2 motors dying are slim. And only one would be needed to cruise a truck with load. From a business POV, it would make sense to buy these if they could reduce their delivery costs or have dual use on them. From the automakers POV, the 2 small generators-motors may be the exact type that is going in their cars. IOW, fewer number of unique parts. Heck, the truck could use 2 motors identical from 1 taken from a car hybrid.
Dude! (Score:5, Insightful)
Ryan Fenton
Re:Your car is too fat. Uncle Sam needs to trim it (Score:4, Insightful)
Okay, twitter, let me see if I can follow your logic:
The problem was caused by government, government, and then government. Demonstrating the common affliction of irrational faith in government, your solution is now more government!
A big "duh" to the auto industry (Score:5, Insightful)
Up here in the Great White North it's been a constant barrage of news stories: truck plants closing unexpectedly in Ontario, tens of thousands out of work. Apparently neither GM nor Ford actually anticipated a) fuel prices rising this high and b) consumers actually (gasp!) shopping for fuel economy as a result. Almost as if the 1970s never happened.
The other interesting thing is that hybrids are just about sold out entirely in western Canada. Months long waiting lists. Not so surprising, as I'm sure the auto industry never produced *that* many compared to regular cars. What is surprising is that Honda Civics are also sold out all over the place.
All of this followed by nightly news stories of these poor SUV drivers who are scrambling to replace their vehicles - only to discover the resale is next to nothing (I heard a report claiming used SUV prices are down 30% in the past month or two alone), and smaller vehicles are getting hard to find. Again, DUH. Economists, the oil industry - damn near everyone has been predicting this for YEARS. Everyone except the auto industry. I hope Ford and GM go bankrupt for their shortsightedness.
Re:This is how economics is supposed to work! (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate SUVs with a passion. Glad to see them go.
SUVs were always mostly a waste (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Very easy to bring them back (Score:2, Insightful)
My guess is that one of these companies will get smart and soon deliver just this.
I think your idea is very good and makes sense. I would bet $100 that the first to market will be a Japanese car company, probably Toyota.
Uncle Sam is too fat. You need to trim it. (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to cut down on corruption, simplify the laws and reduce the role of government.
Sure, government is responsible. (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a list of government problems, mostly anti-trust issues and corporate welfare:
Regulation that makes sense:
The contnued availability of cheap cars from Japan show that the technology to do all of the above has been around for more than 30 years and it's not terribly expansive. Instead of promoting such things, government has been busy supporting companies that rip us all off. That's a crime.
Re:Your car is too fat. Uncle Sam needs to trim it (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd like to drive a hybrid, but the premium is too high for it to make sense. I would consider trading off for a 4cyl car, but again, mine is paid off. Suppose I'll drive it until it dies.
And heck, gas would need to get a lot higher than it is for it to be worth financing another car when you factor in a monthly payment.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
The importance is, for most owners, a necessary expense. The SUV is essentially a face-saving minivan. Guys and girls who wake up one day realizing that they have 2.5 children and a hockey game or ballerina class to chauffeur around on saturday mornings need to feel like they haven't yet abandoned their youthful carefree lifestyle.
The SUV is a way to convince themselves that they are something they're not.
For the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with ending up with the kids and white picket fence. I think it's a problem when you try and ignore or cover it with your choice of vehicle.
Re:A big "duh" to the auto industry (Score:5, Insightful)
Now I drive my 15 year old Civic most days, and I have my CR-V for those times that I need AWD / greater clearance / etc.
The real answer is that the American auto companies got complacent and lazy while the trucks were selling well. They made a ton of profits, built generally good products (my GM truck was about the most reliable thing I've ever owned, considering the rough service life it saw) and ignored R&D for the inevitable price spike in fuel. They're getting exactly what they deserve - years of profit-taking with little investment in innovation, and the market is now crushing them. Market forces at work, folks.
Re:SUVs aren't dead (Score:2, Insightful)
No it's not (Score:2, Insightful)
"If SUVs are too expensive to own, people will stop buying them and trade to more fuel-efficient vehicles."
What your short sighted mind doesn't seem to comprehend is the regulatory function of the government. It can define the rules and
levels out the playing field when the free market fails to regulate itself.
SUV's are the epitome of consumer irresponsibility with these behemoths causing problems related to pollution [sierraclub.org] as well as road safety [nytimes.com] and Political Instability [iags.org]
With the "free market" continuously failing to address these "externalities" it is a surprise to me that no action has been taken before in the past. These asshole vehicles should have been taxed the fuck out of ages ago to make them as expensive and unattractive as possible
Re:This is how economics is supposed to work! (Score:5, Insightful)
I get suspicious too when I hear about targeted taxes and subsidies. It's dangerous ground on which to tread. I always hope for economically sensible policies, and of course am usually disappointed. But reasonable policies that take advantage of natural market forces by making users pay for their externalities do have a place.
What if gas prices drop again? (Score:3, Insightful)
I guess I am worried that the current high price may in part be due to people speculating that we have reached peak oil (or that at least supply can no longer match demand.) If people buy oil futures in speculation of an oil shock that may not be as big as expected then prices will fall again.
If prices fall then people might go back to old habits and then when they rise again people might just expect prices to drop again like it did in 2008.
I guess I am hoping for a nice steady rise so we can switch to renewable sources as quickly as and painlessly as possible. Of course if we were to pass regulation to encourage a switch to a better energy source before we reach peak oil then we would make the transition a lot less painfully than we would if we just wait for peak oil and then let the market force the change. Yes the free market will make sure that eventually we will all be using renewable resources. The only question is what will the economy be like by then? Will we have a middle class at all at that point? The sooner we get to work ending the oil age and going on to something better then the better off we will all be in the long run.
Re:This is how economics is supposed to work! (Score:1, Insightful)
For example, heavier SUVs tear up the roads quicker. Is it fair for me in my half ton compact to pay my taxes for the wear you put on the roads in your 2+ ton SUV. Maybe we should find some way to categorize vehicles by weight and tax them accordingly.( *gasp* - would that be a "per-catagory tax"?)
Also, I will be just as affected by global warming as you are even though you have contributed more to it.
See... thats why free markets suck. Anything that can not be monetized is ignored or taken advantage of.
Re:This is how economics is supposed to work! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
He states facts in a most mildly inflammatory way while still making his viewpoint known - SUV resale values are going down hard as gas prices go up - and you answer by looking forward to killing people with your unnecessarily oversized vehicle. You do realize that you exemplify most (and perhaps all, though we're lacking some information) of the negative stereotypes of people who drive SUVs, don't you?
Re:This is how economics is supposed to work! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stupid Ford (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:This is how economics is supposed to work! (Score:3, Insightful)
But the OPEC countries do a lot of artificial manipulation of oil prices in the first place, so this isn't pure market either.
I think scenestar and tronbradia above debunked the rest of your arguments pretty well.
Theyre NOT SUV's, get with the program! (Score:2, Insightful)
They're "crossovers". Didn't you get the memo?
Re:SUVs were always mostly a waste (Score:3, Insightful)
If you need large passenger seating, there are minivans.
There is a better solution for "large passenger seating" (that could be parsed in an alternate, amusing way): it's called a "bus" or a "train."
Re:completely missing the point with SUV's. (Score:5, Insightful)
But cmon, they are still the safest for the people inside
Really? I've driven a few. They almost universally have a large placard, big and obvious, on the driver side sun screen panel: "This vehicle has a high risk of roll over, resulting in serious injury or death." I've seen an SUV flip on the highway right in front of me when the driver attempted to pass another car at high speed. The resulting wreck was most likely not survivable.
"But it's better if somebody crashes into you." I've got a better idea. How about we stop driving like a bunch of fucking morons? Is it really that hard to NOT CRASH INTO SHIT? Maybe somebody should take your license.
Re:What if gas prices drop again? (Score:3, Insightful)
In 2002 the Netherlands (and some more) switched to the Euro. 1 liter of Euro95 at that moment costed us about 1 Euro. At this moment the price is round 1.6 Euro. In the last year prices went up with about 15 cents and they're expected to rise another 30 to 40 cents this year.
And yes, you're reading it right. In the Netherlands a gallon of Euro95 would cost you 6 Euro, that's allmost $10 a gallon...
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
If you can't see the difference between laughing at someone for losing money buying a luxury good you find reprehensible and saying you're going to be happy when you run someone over and kill them with your vehicle, then you belong with that borderline sociopath and fellow SUV owner named Soporific.
Keep the gas guzzler. (Score:4, Insightful)
Very few people are actually doing the math.
One thing that is important to understand: GM, Ford, and Chrysler have been selling these things with 0% financing and allowing 0% down for some time now. As a buyer, taking this offer is a good idea, even if you can afford to pay cash. Most people can't though, and the financing is the only thing that allows them to afford the vehicle.
As we all know, any new car depreciates the moment you drive it off the lot. So everyone taking these 0%/0-down deals is upside-down on their vehicle on day one. (Whereas someone with a "traditional" car loan where 20% of the money or so was used as a down payment would still be right-side-up on day one).
Now you have the current energy crisis on top of it, and a sudden spike of 30% in gas prices has eroded another 30% of equity for a guy who wasn't right-side-up to begin with.
Small cars are hot now, and they're in shorter supply. So manufacturers don't need to offer 0% loans on them.
So here's what the idiots do: sell the SUV at any price, get a smaller car. Eat the negative equity. Go from a 0% loan into a 6% loan.
Example:
You have a 2007 Chevy Tahoe. It gets 17mpg city/highway combined according to the new 2008 EPA numbers. 1 year old, 0% loan on $40,000 for 5 years. You've paid back $8,000, owe $32,000. It's worth $20,000 on the market if you're lucky. $12,000 in negative equity there.
Buy a 2008 Honda Accord, 4 cylinder. EPA combined mileage = 24mpg.
According to the fueleconomy.gov site, the Tahoe will cost $3475/year @ 15k miles per year. The Accord will be $2464/year. So it will take roughly TWELVE YEARS or 180,000 miles to overcome the negative equity alone. Heaven forbid we include sales tax and depreciation on the new vehicle into the equation.
Even if you bought a Prius (46mpg, $1282/yr) it'd take 65k miles, or 5.5 years, to make up the difference.
Moral of the story: keep the gas guzzler.
Re:SUVs were always mostly a waste (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Uncle Sam is too fat. You need to trim it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
~S
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
I take my 2.5 kids up the mountain 4x4ing and fishing all year round in my Liberty. My kids will not only learn a love of nature, but they'll keep those memories forever. Who am I to whine about the few $$ more per tank. Thats why I work, to buy and do the things I want. Don't see many civics up there... Beautiful mountains, waterfalls, lakes, wildlife...
Wait, I got it.... I'll take a picture of it for you, then you could see what I'm covering up...
I too drive one of these horrible useless vehicles for similar reasons. Perhaps some slashdot poster can help me out...where I can find an eight-bike rack for a Prius? http://www.catastrophicerror.com/~endo/lottabikes.jpg [catastrophicerror.com]
Re:And may I be the first to say... (Score:2, Insightful)
As for Slashdot's hate against SUVs. I can certainly see the points against it - Unsafe for *other* drivers (It's certainly safer for the person in it), rising petrol prices, lowering value and actual vehicle expense. And sure, there are enough people who have an SUV who don't NEED one. But honestly, you act like there is absolutely NO reason to get an SUV.
Putting purebred off-roading SUVs like Land Rovers and whatnot to the side, you can't deny that proper SUV's give you something other cars don't. Boot space. We've got a 3.3L Toyota Kluger that we wouldn't be able to live without. It comfortably fits our German Shepherd, plus whatever we need to take wherever. Sure, a lot of the times the boot remains empty and wasted (apart from our dog), but then again, there's the family vacation where it can take a full boot full of stuff as well as luggage on the roof. We don't need to hire another car to take us there.
"So get a wagon you say!" - but a wagon is gonna struggle with a family of 5 and luggage. 500Nm of torque certainly gets it happily up that mountain we're driving to for our vacation. Of course, the thing you sacrifice is the money you have to play for that 16L/100km of petrol.
But honestly speaking. You're doing well and have enough money. You have a family and need a large vehicle with lots of boot space. Now does it really make sense to get that wagon which is gonna struggle up that hill everytime you drive it fully packed? What's wrong with getting what you pay for?
Next Slashdot readers are gonna say everyone needs to get 1.4L VW Golf's because it makes sense financially. If you really can't understand why the car market ranges between cheap cars and Ferrari's, well...You're paying a lot of money for a product. One you're probably going to be using a lot. Do you want one that you despise to get into and drive, or do you want to pay an extra bit of money so that you enjoy driving it, and find it very comfortable.
It's the same reason I'm currently buying a 1994 Prelude VTiR instead of a 1989 Corolla beater for my first car. I want something I want to get into drive, not something I despise.
I'm sure people question why we would want the server box with the 1000W power supply when we could do it just as well with half that. Why we would buy a new processor instead of run on our old Pentium 2s for years back. A mix of 'requirements' and 'if I'm spending money, I want it to go *well*'.
That being said, I *do* think that a lot of people buy SUVs without even thinking twice about the running costs of one. While that is stupid, it's also annoyingly bigoted to act like all SUV drivers are morons and it "serves them right". C'mon Slashdot.
~Jarik
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
Nah. Unless you're hitting a bus or a large truck, an SUV will plow through stuff by sheer mass alone. If you do hit the same size as or bigger than you, then that truck frame will absorb less than a car's crumple zone and you'll get hit worse. The biggest problem with SUVs is the same one as with Jeeps in the 80's. They're trucks with a high center of gravity and people buy them for the power and try to drive them like a Porsche Boxster. Hilarity ensues for anybody not caught up or related to someone in the accident.
The real problem with SUVs in Europe is that nearly all parking is sized for cars, and often for compact or economy models at that. Some stupid (single occupant) rich bitch in a town in southern France (can't remember which one) yelled at my sister for almost opening the door of our rental car into the side of her precious SUV. There was no more than an inch or two to spare on each side of her vehicle to the edges of her parking stall in a full lot. I was too dumbstruck by her arrogance to turn the tables and ream her out the way she really deserved to be. If we had stayed in France long enough for it to happen again, that next SUV owner wouldn't have been as fortunate.
I suspect, given the same situation, other Frenchmen would have found the vocabulary. Being an SUV owner in Europe is probably more pain than it's worth in terms of conspicuous consumption and feeling above the masses.
Re:Greedy Americans (Score:3, Insightful)
Apparently, you haven't heard of the concept of "Rapture".
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
I also believe in getting my kids into nature, but (!!): what will be left of that nature for them to enjoy ? Of course 1 SUV driving up and down a mountain does not make much pollution, but if everyone did it ? And all those communities you drive through to get there ? What happens to their nature ? And of course you are teaching your kids that the way to enjoy nature is to drive first, so they too may continue this cycle.
But on the other hand it was our parents generation that helped destroy a lot of the local nature that was within walking/cycling distance of their/our homes, so we must go further to find it for our kids ! And, yes, in USA the distances are further, and public transport worse than in my native Europe.
Re:Keep the gas guzzler. (Score:3, Insightful)
Or a 2008 CR-V @ 23mpg (combined) - though my 2002 get better...
Re:Uncle Sam is too fat. You need to trim it. (Score:1, Insightful)
Or take a look at the wikipedia article on political corruption [wikipedia.org]: "The argument that corruption necessarily follows from the opportunity is weakened by the existence of countries with low to non-existent corruption but large public sectors, like the Nordic countries.".
If you know of more reliable data than the CPI, feel free to post a link.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep, you definitely need a 4WD SUV to take the highway up the mountain to the paved turnoff leading to the trailhead parking lot. And while you're taking pictures, send me one of the Honda Civic and the VW Beetle parked next to you in the same lot. (I live in Colorado, BTW. See 'em parked side-by-side all the time.)
I'd estimate that MAYBE one in 10,000 SUV owners have EVER used their vehicle under the off-road conditions for which it was originally designed. And even then 99% of the time they're back home shuffling kids to soccer and groceries from the store.
Too many idiots bought them for what they could do, someday, maybe, and not for what they "actually" do day-in-and-day-out.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
Hell, the cops will tell you to get on the sidewalk. The bicycle cops? Ride on the sidewalk.
Any spot where I can travel at a dangerous enough speed (20mph) also has low pedestrian traffic. Any any smart bike rider will maintain lower speed around pedestrians. I've actually never seen nor heard of a bicycle/ped crash.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:4, Insightful)
* consumption isn't all THAT low from what I hear from my 2-wheeled-colleagues
* it might be nice in warm / dryish countries, I for one don't look forward to arriving all drenched at work
* I for one feel quite a bit more safe being surrounded by a steel cage & airbags-combination
* it's just not practical to strap 2 kids, a wife and a bag full of groceries on top of it
IMHO : bikes is more about 'that sense of freedom' than transport, cars are more about convenience than play. That said, it's always a blurry line off course...
Re:Good riddance! (Score:4, Insightful)
And even so, I'm willing to be that you could have bought a Liberty or even a Tacoma and stuck a small two-wheeled trailer on the back for the half-dozen times you actually needed to carry eight bikes, and then not have been stuck with a gas guzzler the other five days of the week when you're simply commuting to work. (The fact that you felt you had to take a picture of all those bikes together tends to indicate that it was an exception and not the rule.)
Everyone thinks they're a special case, but add all of those special cases together and you create an enormous demand that drives up the prices for everyone else. And where I grew up, thinking solely of your own needs with no regard whatsoever for how it might impact others was considered to be a 'might selfish.
Re:Cable TV (Score:3, Insightful)
Lookup "supply and demand", and then tell me what happens when someone consumes too much of a limited resource. Hint: The price of said reasource begins to skyrocket, impacting everyone.
Translation: You're driving up prices for those who CAN'T afford it.
"Too many hot rod kids out there driving like assholes."
They're not the only ones, apparently.
idid (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
OK, I know station wagons aren't exactly considered chic in the US, but there are quite a lot of modern ones being made for the European market that could easily be sold in the US. And the reason SUVs are popular in the first place is because of marketing, I bet you could do the same for station wagons (come up with a new name, bling them up)...
Engine size (Score:2, Insightful)
OK, if you have a huge trailer to haul around on a regular basis, you might need a big engine. But, for the daily commute, I would make the case that 100-120 HP is enough to power a standard-sized sedan. This means an engine displacement of 1.6-2.0 liters, not the huge 3 liter engine that you often see in American sedans. My moderately-sized French-made station wagon has a 1.6 liter engine, giving me a fuel consumption of 0.07 l/km (it's a 2000 model, a newer one would probably be 0.06 or even 0.05 l/km) - this is 47 mpg in US terms. No need for hybrids, just moderately sized standard diesel or gasoline engines.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
You're carrying bikes for eight people and no one has a spot for a trailer? No one has parents or friends with a house and driveway? Heck, I've seen some flatbeds where people back 'em up to the side of a garage and then push 'em vertical. Takes up maybe eight square feet. No RV/"toy" paid parking lots near you?
And a Yakama car rack with gutter posts will hold four bikes easily. (Been there, done that.) Yeah, it might cost $600 for posts, rails, and racks, but that's a darn site better than an extra $8,000 or more for a bigger vehicle. Plus operating costs.
Or a smaller truck/car with a heavy-duty trailer hitch rack can hold three or four. (Mine does three, and folds up when not in use.)
And you can buy a car for day-to-day use, and then figure out something else for those special cases. (Heck, with the bottom dropping out of the huge SUV/truck market, you could have bought a car and then picked up a used truck for a song. (grin)).
Re:A big "duh" to the auto industry (Score:4, Insightful)
The other thing about them is that they cost a fortune to make, both in money and energy. Here in Ireland at least the only reason they're affordable is down to the tax breaks you get for being "environmentally friendly".
Electric hybrids are (at the minute at least) a feel good car. Be it a pious or those completely pointless lexus v8's. The way the market is really heading is towards lighter and more aerodynamic cars with real world effective energy saving measures like BMW's stop-start technolodgy, and regenerative braking. About time cars got lighter too if you're asking me.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
Small cars can brake and swerve... (Score:4, Insightful)
This is why so many SUVs go off the roads every time it snows. 4WD means you can accelerate well so you scoot along the freeway pretty much as normal. First sign of trouble, you've got nothing. No brakes, no steering, so guess what happens next...?
Nonsense. (Score:1, Insightful)
How did the human race possible survive before 1990? Astonishing how we could have lived with just cars!
Re:Everybody hates a truck until... (Score:5, Insightful)
Road service is pretty much up to the job where I live. Oops, I forgot
(b) it floods
I'd rather have a boat than a truck in that case. Or a hovercraft.
(c) they are moving
Last time I moved, I rented a truck. I mean, a _real_ truck (7.5 ton). I only needed it for a day.
(d) they drive into a ditch
I usually don't. My dad does that a lot, but then again, he's got a 4WD and thinks he won't get stuck. He usually needs to call someone with a fscking tractor to pull him out, though.
(e) they need a truck but only have a little munchkin car
See (c). When I need a truck, I rent one. That's easy with all the money I save by not owning a truck. Heck, I even have money left over.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
Well no wonder. Who would want to walk on a sidewalk with bikes passing at 20mph.
A bike's place is on the road with the other vehicles. Those riding bikes should obey the rules of the road, as should those driving any motorised vehicle that wishes to pass them. Most of the rest of the world has managed this for decades.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:SUVs were always mostly a waste (Score:3, Insightful)
Do a reality check: How many SUVs do you see driving around ? How many "supercars" do you see driving around ?
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
And why do you automatically think SUV's are "ridiculous" or "unnecessary"?
As the post itself points out, there will always be a market for SUV's, because SUV's are necessary. SUV's have existed at least since the days of the first commercial Jeep, and probably before that.
In my area during winter, we've regularly got a foot of snow on the ground. We get hurricanes, we get all sorts of extreme weather. Our roads even in the best of times can't take the strain. An SUV is really the only practical vehicle to own in these sorts of situations. No, not as your *only* vehicle, but as one of them. And that's not even counting the carrying and/or towing capacity.
Yes, there are *some* ridiculous SUV's (Escalade, anyone?) and it's probably good that they no longer lead the sales chart. But to assume that all SUV's are unnecessary and that everyone who bought one is "stupid" is no different than thinking anyone who bought a house 3 years ago was stupid - some people buy things because they need them.
So it's selfish! (Score:3, Insightful)
>whatsoever for how it might impact others was considered to be a 'might selfish.
Firstly, I don't own a SUV.
When I buy a car, the sole consideration is _me_.
It's _my_ money to buy it, it's going to be _my_ money to make it go. Thus when I buy a car it's going to do exactly what I want it to do, within the limits of my pocketbook and the law.
If I want to buy a car because it looks cool, that's my prerogative. If I want to buy a car because it's bigger and more likely to protect me in a crash, that's my prerogative. If I want to buy a car because it can go off-road even though I will never drive it there, that is my prerogative.
When other people start helping me pay my car bills, I'll start considering their opinions about what to buy.
The effect of being hit by an SUV; remember? (Score:3, Insightful)
- Jason.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, people who need it will be those who use it as part of a transportation business, and thus have an income from the vehicle that justifies its use.
If you need one due to your environment or business, good on you. We're laughing at the suburban twats who bought them because they thought their 2.4 children were too large to fit in a normal sedan.
Re:Everybody hates a truck until... (Score:1, Insightful)
(a) it snows a lot
(b) it floods
(c) they are moving
(d) they drive into a ditch
(e) they need a truck but only have a little munchkin car
Considering it snows a lot here every year and I've never needed a truck, it's never flooded, I move maybe once per decade or so, I've never driven into a ditch, and I seldom have need of a truck, I'd say that people in a similar situation to me hate a truck driver 97% of the time.
They're very handy when something like the flooding you mentioned strikes. 99.9999% of the rest of the time they're nothing more than a compensation mechanism. Even the way in which you refer to people with smaller cars as "munchkin hybrid" drivers suggests you see your truck as contributing to the size of your....ego. I can't tell you the number of "I'm the big man" type office workers I know who drive a big truck from their house in suburbia to their office every day. If you're doing construction or some other job that requires you cart around half a tonne of materials, you need a truck. However if you're reading this message from your work computer, it's more likely you're trying to prove something.
Re:Everybody hates a truck until... (Score:5, Insightful)
(a) it snows a lot
(b) it floods
(c) they are moving
(d) they drive into a ditch
(e) they need a truck but only have a little munchkin car
I'm a firm believer in using the right tool for the right job. You have to haul shit, you use your truck for work? God bless you, you're using the tool properly. You use a tricked out F-350 dually for a daily commuter vehicle? Baby Jesus himself is going to come around and spit at you.
Most people don't need trucks and SUV's are really not practical for anyone. Hell, the original hummer was good at what it was, a serious offroad vehicle. Doesn't work as well as a combat vehicle but hey, it wasn't designed for that. The new hummers are just stupid because they're designed to look tough but can't keep up with what the original hummers could do. Dumb!
Right now, I'm driving a roller-skate, one of those Toyota Yarii. Very nice. Good fuel economy, great price, huuuuuge carrying capacity for a little ol' hatchback. If I had to move a house, I'd rent a truck or buy a friend with a truck a case of beer. But I don't need one 99.5% of the time so why have one?
Re:Good riddance! (Score:1, Insightful)
Sorry, but almost ubiquitously the cyclists in Atlanta do not heed the rules of the road. Quit crossing in front of protected arrow traffic, weaving in between cars, and generally acting like douchebags and then we can talk about you getting the respect you want.
Fuck, I have the multi ton vehicle asshole. The only laws on the road are physics, and you fucking have no say on a bike.
No good place for bikes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A big "duh" to the auto industry (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
It is important to keep in mind the varying degrees of necessity. Plenty of people subscribe to the mindset that just because they live somewhere that has snow in the winter, they absolutely must own an AWD vehicle.
I can tell you first hand that logic is rubbish. I live in upstate New York - annual snowfall over 100 inches. I drive a RWD coupe, with a standard transmission and no traction control, year-round. By using tires that match the conditions, I have never been stuck. Indeed I have passed idiots in SUVs that drove into ditches because they felt themselves to be above the laws of physics.
And yet a local used car dealer did a TV ad - in April - telling us that "if you live in New York, you need an SUV". Of course that was probably because his lot was already full of used SUVs, since we had crossed well beyond $3/gallon gas at that point.
So while there are some areas where an SUV is indeed necessary, far too many people have allowed themselves to be sold on the mindset that they are always necessary.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
However, 99.99999% of the time, this isn't what they're used for. I continually hear arguments of how "I need an SUV because of the weather in my area," and it just doesn't hold water.
Last year, I spent a fair bit of time living in the interior of Alaska. If there's any area that "requires" its residents to own an SUV, this is it. In reality, gas is expensive, the residents aren't terribly wealthy, and as a result, virtually everyone drives either an AWD Subaru, one of those seemingly-indestructable old Volvos, or a pickup truck.
(Also tangentally, Fairbanks is a working model of a city that has the infrastructure to support plug-in electric vehicles, as every single parking space is wired with a 110V outlet that's used to keep your vehicle's oil from freezing in the -50Â winters.)
With a bit of experience, one could safely drive our old 1980s-vintage Saab hatchback down an unplowed road.
Today, an inexperienced driver can safely drive an AWD sedan across a sheet of ice. Last winter, I visited my folks up north, and took their (fairly small) car around town after a snowstorm, and swore that the car's AWD system was violating the laws of physics.
"Necessary" usually means that you haven't considered all of the alternatives out there.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
So it may be a reality, but you (and many others) brought it on yourself. If you're one of those people that really does have a good reason for driving an SUV, then I'm going to assume it's still worth it for you. Otherwise, please quietly accept the consequences of your decisions.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:4, Insightful)
But... you sir, are an idiot for using a defense of trails with thick roots and muddy fields. Who the hell is facing this in getting their kids to school or dance practice? I don't advocate using Toyota Corollas for plowing fields, nor do I advocate using them for what your uses seem to be. Maybe you should come down from your muddy root-covered trail someday to my urban neighborhood in the Washington DC region, where SUVs large and small, but mostly large, are used to drive to the shopping mall 8 miles away on flat paved roads.
Did people in Michigan have no families prior to the SUV? Did they stay in all winter? There were 4x4 trucks back then, but most people in America who didn't face severe conditions or tow boats, etc, didn't buy them to get to the office.
The prevalence of truck-like cars for use as the main vehicle in America stems mostly from marketing savvy, not usefulness. Add to that the fuel economy standard loophole that allowed them to be gas pigs. While I don't subscribe to the believe that a certain type of car should be mandated to everyone or certain types outlawed, that latter fact - the fuel economy loophole - was a crock.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
...or a fixed barrier, in which case the inertia of your huge-ass SUV works against you.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
All of those minivans also outdo every single midsize and large 'crossover' SUV for interior volume and passenger space, including the Acura MDX, Honda Pilot, Toyota Highlander, Saturn Outlook, Buick Enclave, Mazda CX-9, Ford Flex, Ford Taurus X, Volkswagen Touareg, Volvo XC90, Hyundai Veracruz, and their respective corporate cousins.
To do better for space, you need to get a Suburban, an extended length Expedition, or a fullsize family van like the Chevy Express, Ford Econoline, or Dodge Sprinter.
On the other hand, I believe for model year 2008 only the Toyota Sienna and Honda Odyssey are available with 8 passenger seating. All other minivan models are limited to 7.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:2, Insightful)
Drive your car the way you would ride a bicycle people....if you know that you are going to have to stop at point B, then it really doesn't matter if you make it there from point A 15 seconds faster.
Don't get me started on how it should be the law to have 3-5 car lengths between you and the car in front of you at all times when you are on the interstate in an urban area. I have convinced myself that this would solve, or drastically reduce, traffic issues (exlcuding really bad accidents) in all but the largest urban areas.
My fat ass needs to go back to riding my bike everywhere anyway. I did not evolve to handle motorized transport....or a device that I can enter numbers into with a full expectation that someone will knock on my door in about 30 minutes with a pizza for me.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:1, Insightful)
Although I take secondary roads, ALWAYS look behind, and ALWAYS give cars the right of way, and try to stay out of their way as much as possible - I have been almost ran off the road multiple times, screamed at, honked at, and had trash thrown at me by passing vehicles.
2 weeks ago, a brave soul from a passing car threw a half-eaten tub of yogurt straight at my back, splattering all over my clothes and bike. Then proceeded to speed away. All this on a very wide, low traffic side street in a quiet little town.
Instead of forcing people to watch videos of crashes for driver's education - force them to ride a bicycle for a week, and pick up trash on the side of the freeway. Maybe then they'll see the other side of the coin.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
This has meant, effectively 7 passenger minivans. The latest, a 2001 Sienna, is soon to be gone because we are now down to only one booster, which means we can fit all three kids across the back of a much smaller vehicle.
The point is, though, that people use lots of kids as an excuse for driving SUVs. SUVs are not an efficient way (ignoring hybrids) to transport lots of people. They carry extra drivetrain and extra suspension that are not required for transporting lots of people. And they frankly aren't as good at transporting stuff as a minivan.
A good minivan can handle a lot more cargo and a lot more people a lot more comfortably and a lot more efficiently than most SUVs out there. IMO. And they seem to be holding their resale pretty well at the moment.
All that said, having small children makes small efficient vehicles an impossibility; at least in the US with constantly increasing requirements for restraining^Wsecuring children.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, you occasionally run across the guy who wants it both ways. They'll veer to the side of the road and try to pass stopped or slow moving traffic in the same lane. They'll run red lights. They don't stop at stop signs. They get a whole bunch of people riding side-by-side at 5 mph so they can have a leisurely chat while cars pile up behind them (making it dangerous to pass). I hate these cyclists. If they want to do these things they need to ride on the sidewalks and risk getting the ticket. Using the roadways is a responsibility, not a right.
I can understand it being scary riding in the middle of traffic on a bicycle. I live in Chicago and it scares the shit out of me (which is why I don't do it). So I'm a bit lenient on cyclists. But at the same time it can be frustrating if you come across a douchebag who wants you to treat him super special and waive the traffic rules for him because he's riding a bike. Luckily I don't own a car anymore, so I only have to deal with this a couple of times a year.
So tip-of-the-hat to you responsible cyclists. I have no problem sharing the road with you. Wag-of-the-finger to the douchebags who think that their bicycles give them the right to ignore traffic rules (and make things dangerous for the rest of us. Learn to ride.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
This one always makes me laugh too. I live in Houston, and it rains here, hard, quite often; flash flooding is very common. I drive a BMW 3-series, which has quite a low ground clearance. During a flash flood, when the water is above the bottom of my car, I'm routinely trying to go faster than most of the soccer moms in their Suburbans, and suburban cowboys in their lifted crew cab extended bed F350s. And that makes it more dicey for me, since I'll then be at more of a risk of messing up my car due to the water.
I hold that most people in cars - big or small - don't actually have any idea what they're doing. They get out there, turn the car on, and turn their brain off. Those who can't handle, say, a little water on the road, when their vehicles are more than capable of it, are a prime example of who I'm talking about.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
Points 5 and 7 are beautifully exhibited by anyone who drives a large, heavy, poorly-handling vehicle with higher-than-standard bumpers, headlights, emissions, noise...
SUVs and light trucks are between 2 and 6 times as likely to kill the victim of a crash (across cars, bicycles, pedestrians) than cars are (look it up; my numbers are a bit obsolete and probably low given that SUVs have gotten bigger, and that those numbers are from unmodified ones). And the occupant of the SUV is no safer. Sociopathic? Yes.
Is someone who points out those facts sociopathic? Is someone who laughs at the stupid and irresponsible decisions of others sociopathic? Sticks and stones...
Re:Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
If everyone has 3 kids, we're fucked. I'm guessing there are about 6 times as many people on the earth as it can sustainably support. Maybe more, maybe less, but we need many fewer people if we're to survive the next 100 years as not just as a species but as a planet.
That said, we need more smart, wise, stable people from loving families to counterbalance the opposite. Got any ideas?
On the car-seat front, my parents threw me in a crib in the back of the VW bus (middle seat removed to make room therefor). My balance, coordination, agility on moving platforms (circus rides, cars, boats, trees...) are enormously better than those of most everyone else I know. It could be a coincidence, but I like to remind myself that you cannot have both freedom to grow and safety.
Re:Keep the gas guzzler. (Score:3, Insightful)
No... no... no...!
Moral of the story: You were an idiot to buy the SUV, and now you're STUCK with the negative equity, no matter what you do. Throwing in the extra cost of gas and continuing to drive it will just put you deeper in a hole.
You can non-op it, drop the insurance on it, and HOPE the second-hand SUV market will improve, particularly as all evidence points to gas prices dropping sharply next year. But you're betting against a year of depreciation as well, so it might still be a loss to wait.
Moral of the story: Buy used.
Re:What if gas prices drop again? (Score:3, Insightful)
In fact, you're very, very, very wrong. Gas prices aren't being drive-up by demand at all.
Demand in the US has gone down significantly, and demand in Asia appears to be FAR lower than anyone expected. Meanwhile, as demand keeps falling, oil prices continue rising. There's no clearer sign of a bubble.
It's all (mostly) just a feed-back cycles of a bunch of insane speculators driving up the price to ridiculous levels. The only question is when it will burst and separate all those foolish speculators from their money, and drop prices back down to rational levels again.
Thanks, I'll keep my hippie bus (Score:3, Insightful)
But that doesn't really have anything to do with the argument you're making, it's just me being bitter because manufacturers chasing higher profit margins flooded the market with space-inefficient front-engine, front-wheel-drive designs based on sedan chassis. Anybody wanting something with a stronger chassis had no choice but an even more space-inefficient SUV, which also only came into existence because it leveraged truck production capacity, not because it was a sane design for a utility vehicle.