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Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector 198

bigwophh writes "Google has been very vocal on its stance for net neutrality. Now, Richard Whitt — Senior Policy Director for Google — announces that Google will take an even more active role in the debate by arming consumers with the tools to determine first-hand if their broadband connections are being monkeyed with by their ISPs."
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Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

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  • How convenient (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 14, 2008 @03:09PM (#23793459)
    Oh sure, Google freeloads off all the ISPs and is now developing a tool to detect when ISPs fight back. ...what, you say, Google pays for its bandwidth already? They haven't just hacked their servers into the Internet? Hmmm, maybe the ISPs lied then...
  • Re:let me guess (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Darkness404 ( 1287218 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @03:19PM (#23793563)
    Well if they do, then they can probably sign me up as a customer. If Google can act on the idea of a 100% neutral Internet and become an ISP, many people will head to them. But I don't think Google will expand into the physical world much just because of how everything they do has to deal with the Internet as more of an OS then it being a physical computer. But if Google becomes an ISP, I might just have to sign up after this.
  • by Asmor ( 775910 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @03:31PM (#23793667) Homepage

    Sorry for the google bashing, but this doesn't seem like google is as much interested in defending the poor customers against the evil ISP's as it's trying to defend it's own commercial interests.
    And in this case their interests align with the customers' interests, against the evil ISPs.
  • by TihSon ( 1065170 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @03:43PM (#23793775) Homepage
    ...you filthy customer. The most concise phrase I have yet heard to describe how I feel dealing with Canadian Telcos and ISPs.
  • by lanc ( 762334 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @03:51PM (#23793835)

    this doesn't seem like google is as much interested in defending the poor customers against the evil ISP's as it's trying to defend it's own commercial interests.
    absolutely. but still - ever been pissed off because youtube is kinda slow lately?

  • by David_Hart ( 1184661 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @03:56PM (#23793895)
    Yeah, well it's their fault. The ISPs have been receiving fees from consumers for years that was supposed to be earmarked towards infrastructure upgrades. The only ISP that seems to be actually investing any money is Verizon with their FiOS service. Comcast has been doing nothing but riding the coat tails of technical innovation of being able to push more bits through the same old pipes. However, that is maxing out as evidenced by their HD service. They are compessing HD to the point where there is picture drop out and obvious compression artifacts. This is also why they are limiting bandwith.

    David
  • by Jarjarthejedi ( 996957 ) <christianpinch@g ... om minus painter> on Saturday June 14, 2008 @03:59PM (#23793921) Journal
    "...you filthy customer. The most concise phrase I have yet heard to describe how I feel dealing with Canadian Telcos and ISPs."

    More like: ...you filthy customer. The most concise phrase I have yet heard to describe how I feel dealing with any big company.
  • Re:Why not caps? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Fumus ( 1258966 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @03:59PM (#23793927)
    It's all cool when the caps are reasonable, but I have a feeling they would end up with a 50GB cap on a 10mbps connection and require you to pay $1 for each GB over the cap.
    Or worse. After exceeding your limit, you'll be stuck with 4KB/s for the rest of the month.
  • Re:How convenient (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Xanius ( 955737 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @04:10PM (#23793993)
    I for one appreciate your satire...too bad the mod that made you a troll only heard a whoosh sound.
  • by Comatose51 ( 687974 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @04:20PM (#23794089) Homepage
    "Sorry for the google bashing, but this doesn't seem like google is as much interested in defending the poor customers against the evil ISP's as it's trying to defend it's own commercial interests."

    That's when you know when you can really trust someone, when both parties' interests are aligned. Trusting someone's good intentions has a long history of disappointment.
  • by Asmor ( 775910 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @04:22PM (#23794105) Homepage
    I suspect it'll be a bit more sophisticated than that. I don't know a whole lot about networking, but I suspect it shouldn't be too hard to fake a connection so that it's difficult to distinguish it from a torrent. Thus the only way to "cheat" on the test would be to unthrottle all torrents, and in that case you're not really cheating anymore, are ya?

    Of course, as has been said earlier in the discussion, Google's likely most interested in the effects of throttling on their own applications, notably Youtube. So if they only test connections to Youtube, then it either forces ISPs to be caught red-handed or unthrottle youtube, a win-win situation for Google.
  • by centuren ( 106470 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @04:32PM (#23794193) Homepage Journal

    Wouldn't this be easy for ISPs to avoid? Just un-throttle any connections to Google's servers? Just figure out where the test is being done and don't throttle that site. Easy.
    If the ISPs take that approach, and Google then releases their method & code, problem solved: we just all start testing and have our connections not throttled.

    Without knowing just what Google is going to produce, we need more information before deciding on how effective it's going to be one way or the other.
  • And the point? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @05:01PM (#23794381) Homepage Journal
    Its not like the ISPs are denying it anymore.

    Sure, you find out for sure, and and then what? In a lot of areas the 'hi-speed market' is a monopoly.

  • by iangoldby ( 552781 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @05:39PM (#23794673) Homepage

    many ISP's do limit the whole bandwidth, but this application would have to detect that only a certain type of trafic is limited
    Sorry to jump on you (you were just the first to say it), but please can we be clear:

    Net neutrality is not about giving all types of traffic the same priority. You can have a neutral net in which VOIP packets have a very high priority, HTTP packets a slightly lower priority, and bit torrent packets are bottom of the pile.

    Network neutrality is about giving all traffic of the same type the same priority regardless of its source. In other words, in a neutral net ISPs would not make deals with certain content providers to prioritise their traffic.

    It is really important that everyone understands this. Some of the organisations who are against net neutrality are using the argument that it is only sensible to prioritise protocols such as VOIP (prioritisation by type, which most people would agree with), when what they really want is to extract money out of the content providers by prioritising traffic by source.

    Why is prioritisation by source such a bad thing? Because it turns the 'old internet' on its head. Whereas at present anyone can be a content provider, in the brave new world of a non-neutral net only large organisations can afford to pay the ISPs to deliver their content at an acceptable speed.
  • by Easy2RememberNick ( 179395 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @05:48PM (#23794791)
    What I don't get is why an ISP would care if you encrypt things.

      If you use encryption on your torrent connection you'd think that would be good for an ISP, if they're required by law to block people from downloading movies and songs but they can't see it since you're encrypting everything that should get them off the hook.

      Bell Canada just seemed to just say screw this and started to throttle all encrypted traffic. Although they said it was because of bandwidth issues.

      I say for an ISP ignorance is bliss!
  • by spazdor ( 902907 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @06:35PM (#23795111)
    I will happy pay for my bandwidth by the gigabyte if it is sold at market value. If they set up their pricing to reward lighter use or off-peak use, I will change my downloading habits to take advantage of it.

    The ones really being "screwed" under the current model are the light users, who push a good 2 or 3 megabytes a day to check their email and the weather report, don't call tech support very often, and are paying $60 a month to subsidize us compulsive downloaders.
  • by AySz88 ( 1151141 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @06:42PM (#23795149)

    Google more than sure doesn't give a cent about P2P applications, so their app probably will only work for http throttling, namely flv streaming/youtube.
    Why wouldn't they care about P2P? If they can keep P2P tech evolving until it's mature enough to distribute Youtube videos on them, that translates into free bandwidth and service. I think there's already a lot of movement towards this - see P4P [wikipedia.org], Vuze [wikipedia.org], even NASA TV [digimeld.com] is piloting peer-to-peer distribution of its broadcast.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 14, 2008 @08:35PM (#23795901)
    Detecting bandwidth throttling isn't rocket science. I'm pretty sure they have a handful of engineers at Google with the requisite IQ.

    IMHO this is the sort of thing Google needs to do to redeem itself in the eyes of the geek community. It's only something on this scale that is going to deter ISPs from making throttling the de-facto reality -- after which it becomes exceedingly difficult to combat.

    We should be applauding this.
  • by spazdor ( 902907 ) on Saturday June 14, 2008 @08:41PM (#23795949)

    The 'pay for GByte' plan is really the ISP taxing purchases and transactions on their current infrastructure. It allows the ISP to oversell their infrastructure EVEN MORE than they do already and provides them with little incentive to improve their network capacity.


    I don't see how this can be. when they're charging per gigabyte, then the more gigabytes they can deliver the more dollars they get!

    If you're paying a flat rate for your connection, they've already got their money for the month, regardless of how much downloading you do. To maximize revenue, they have an incentive to discourage downloading, as this allows them to cram more flat-rate subscribers onto less infrastructure.

    If instead they can levy a charge on every packet they deliver, then they'll want to facilitate your bandwidth consumption however they can.
  • by trawg ( 308495 ) on Sunday June 15, 2008 @04:05AM (#23798509) Homepage

    Meanwhile 'regular' people will be complaining because they don't understand their up/down ratios, why bandwidth costs more going in one direction than the other, why they had to pay $5 extra one month when they didn't do anything out of the ordinary.... except update windows to sp3... and according to the MS page, thats only a 97kb download.
    as pointed out in another comment, this is how we already roll in Australia. It took a while, but most people understand now that bandwidth is a limited resource and "unlimited" is not something that exists.

    The crux of the problem is that US ISPs are advertising unlimited and don't want to deliver it. We in Australia went through that already, the ISPs got told to stop being jerks, and now they can't do that anymore.

    The sooner the US ISPs start doing that the better - there's an adjustment period as people realise Internet connectivity needs to be treated like electricty - the more you use, the more it costs.
  • by Raven737 ( 1084619 ) on Sunday June 15, 2008 @06:40AM (#23799017)
    So a car dealer has two Ferrari's, but me sells 3 of them.
    The next day 3 customers show up to pick up their Ferraris, clearly the car dealer is outraged!
    3 showing up when he only expected 2 even though he sold 3?! Unbelievable!

    But the solution is simple, since the evil customers expected to get what they payed for, it's clearly all their fault,
    and hence it is only fair to the car dealer that he be fully paid and the customers will have to timeshare.

    Of course if the customers drive in California, the car dealer will have to be paid an additional $100/day since
    driving in such a high traffic area it just completely unfair to the car dealer who only expected costumers to drive in rural, desolate areas of Idaho.

    And in case some people don't know how to make the connection here, just replace "Ferrari" with "GB bandwidth" and "car dealer" with "ISP" (and what ever else needed to make perfect sense :)

    If we let's ISP's get away with any of it, they won't just stop with throttling BitTorrent, they will oversell their bandwidth 1000-10,000x instead of just 10-30x and then throttle absolutely everything to make it all meet. Suddenly you downloading your 500kb Email attachment is an overuse of bandwidth and deserves to be cut down to 3kb/s. But don't worry, that annoying 1.2MB Flash commercial with be subsidized so it won't count and will stream with 10MB(yte)/s over your fiber connection to annoy you instantly. But you can't complain, after all you are getting your full bandwidth worth on SOME content.

    In my overly optimistic way, i would hope that it doesn't really matter who releases such a tool and weather it works or not, just that the greedy ISP think there might be something to nail them down or at least make their unethical misdeeds visible might be enough for them to be not quite as bold, maybe even start campaigning with 'no throttling, test it yourself'. But i forgot that in the US there isn't really any ISP Broadband competition, i mean in the areas i lived in there was only once choice, first it was either Cable or nothing... then we moved, now we had the choice of At&t DSL or.... nothing.... yay. And even in those areas where people are lucky enough to have TWO offerings, chances are very good that both are evil bastards and already throttling

    Now that i have been living in Germany for a while, i almost get weekly adds from some ISP i have never heard of supposedly being cheaper then my current isp. My 16MBit/s connection combined with some unlimited call package is cheap enough though (compared to the us) but it makes me feel good that if there is ever even the hint of throttling that i can simply switch one of the many other isp's.
  • by hicksw ( 716194 ) on Sunday June 15, 2008 @07:18AM (#23799153)
    Google should worry more about ISPs selling out to Phorm. Advert re-writing strikes closer to their revenue stream.

"When the going gets tough, the tough get empirical." -- Jon Carroll

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