Release Team Proposes Gnome 3.0 Plans 306
benuski writes "Today at GUADEC, the Gnome User and Developer European Conference, the gtk+ team announced their plans for gtk+ 3.0; immediately after, the Gnome release team announced their plans for Gnome 2.30 to be changed into Gnome 3.0. This would mean a release date a year and a half to a year in the future. Details are short at the moment, but the Gnome team seems to be following in KDE's footsteps, but hopefully will avoid the problems that plagued KDE 4.0's release."
Screens???? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Insightful)
I see your $0.02 and raise you a nickel.
My problem with KDE 4 is that I can't drag a box over several desktop to select multiple desktop icons. That drives me nuts!
My problem with Gnome is the fact that I can't adjust the screen saver properties without some ugly hack.
I know, these are minor issues, but annoying nonetheless. And your post was probably the nickel's worth anyway.
Aaron Segio (Score:2, Insightful)
I've been disagreeing with a lot, but I don't like to see people bash him as a person.
Frankly, he seems to be a great coder, and plenty of developers keep prasing Plasma as a framework.
My concerns are more about his philosophy and PR capabilities.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:3, Insightful)
Community software should mean that people can easily post bug reports and get issues like these addressed.
Open a bug for each issue and hopefully they will be addressed.
I think it is beneficial to the entire community when people report these things.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Insightful)
Community software should mean that people can easily post bug reports and get issues like these addressed.
Open a bug for each issue and hopefully they will be addressed.
I think it is beneficial to the entire community when people report these things.
The problem is that these don't appear to be bugs, but design choices. I believe that the gnome developers intentionally removed the option to configure each of the different screen savers and that the KDE dev's set up their horrid desktop icon system by design.
What's to file?
Re:KDE's footsteps? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think he's implying that Gnome has no features.
Which, while not entirely true, is not entirely unfair.
An Ode to the GNOME dialog box (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, we are dumb... We want KMail to preserve the HTML-layout of the original [kde.org], when we are replying to or forwarding it. The enlightened developers have been telling us for years, how stupid [kde.org] it is, but we continue to foolishly insist.
If that's not valid grounds for contempt towards users, I don't know, what is.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:3, Insightful)
On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb. He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.
Citation needed
Pledge to stick with unencumbered technology? (Score:5, Insightful)
Miguel de Icaza may enjoy appeasing Microsoft, but most of the Free World does not.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Pledge to stick with unencumbered technology? (Score:3, Insightful)
That and they should rip out the Mono crap that's already part of the GNOME desktop. If they did that I might go back to GNOME, given the state of KDE 4.1.
(I finally switched from KDE to GNOME just in time for them to add Mono to GNOME, so I switched back.)
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:3, Insightful)
The other thing great about KDE4 is that it is done with SVG instead of bitmaps. This means that scaling to very small devices like smartphones is quite simple to achieve.
SVG isn't magic. There's only so far you can scale a given design down before you start to get aliasing.
Vector graphics always look great when scaled up, scaling down is a trickier affair. You have to design your graphics in advance to look good when scaled down, i.e. not using small details or text that would get lost when scaled down.
If you have to design icons specifically for low resolutions anyway, why not just provide a bitmap version? It'll run faster that way.
Re:All hail letter "g" (Score:3, Insightful)
What you describe sounds suspiciously like KDE exactly as it is, but with a gnome-like skin on top.
Come on. QT isn't "better" than GTK, nor is GTK "better" than QT.
Although it'd be nice to unify the two projects, they have extremely different mindsets. While KDE is set on becoming as feature-rich as possible (sometimes to a fault), the GNOME folks like to keep things as simple as possible (sometimes to a fault).
Also, nobody ever said that GNOME or GTK can't be lightweight [xfce.org]. I'd personally like to see the essential parts of the GNOME suite stripped down, and incorporated into Xfce like was done when Mozilla transitioned from SeaMonkey to Firefox. XFce is easily the most noticably fast and "snappy" desktop environment I've used in years. It looks pretty nice too.
Honestly, I think its in the best benefit of both projects for the other one to exist. If you want to, you can run KDE apps in Gnome and vice versa. There's nothing terribly wrong with that, and it keeps a little competition going.
Binding one language to another is also a messy affair, and C++ isn't terribly popular for Unix apps outside of the KDE world. The two projects *have* come together on issues where the two projects already had some common ground (See freedesktop.org [wikipedia.org])
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Insightful)
Can you prove those 2 statements? Can you provide links to statements where he says that?
You didn't ask that from me but what kind impression I have had from what Aaron has told, is that KDE4 is coming smarter, so there is no need for configurations, because KDE will notice what user wants and leave more easier working enviroment for user when.
Feature and Configuration are two different things.
KDE has lots of features and lots of configurations. Gnome has few features and even less configurations. Now KDE4 will move kde to direction that there will be lots of features but much less configurations. Default look will be very simple and clean so all "dumb" gnome users can use kde easily but power user who knows what wants, can turn things ON and customize whole enviroment.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:3, Insightful)
Here is the GNome developer response [gnome.org] to the screensaver thingie:
Is this a troll or do you suffer from short attention span? This was his first comment, but the discussion on bugzilla was very long, and further down he identified technical issues that prevent this from being done sanely atm, wrote an FAQ on the matter, asked for help from those who see this feature, and so on.
Right, after about 20 posts of people ragging on him. The fact remains that he tried to weasel his way out by saying that it shouldn't have to be done because it was hard to do. I bet it is hard. That's why I'm not a programmer, much less a maintainer. If he has a problem with what the people using the product want, he should hand it off to someone who gives a damn. (not to mean that I don't appreciate his efforts, but he chose to be the maintainer for a reason.)
Anyone interest in the issue is well-advised not to rely on the parent but read the discussion themselves.
Good idea. If only had posted a link or something...
Re:Pledge to stick with unencumbered technology? (Score:4, Insightful)
You could, you know, wait for them to finish KDE4. Nobody held a gun to your head and forbade you from using 3.5 did they?
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Insightful)
You know, maybe he chose to be the maintainer because nobody else stepped up and it needed one. He was (is?) a volunteer who donated his own time. You have zero right to demand anything of him. If you want a feature implemented badly, pay someone to do it.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:3, Insightful)
He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.
UI and programming are two different things. One is a study of ergonomics. Programmers who don't specifically have a talent or study in UI should not control UI.
Re:Problems with KDE4? What problems?.. (Score:2, Insightful)
KDE 4.0 Is Not a Failure (Score:2, Insightful)
The only real problem that's plaguing it is that people are assuming that it's the complete product, rather than a work-in-progress as the development team has repeatedly pointed out. Granted denoting it as "4.0" was a questionable decision, but the reasons given by the devs were logical.
The devs had the choice of either completely rewriting the KDE framework to keep it up to date, or stick with the old system and suffer the problems that are plaguing other projects, such as X. They chose the former, and thus it will take some time to reach maturity. Meanwhile, users are free to stick with KDE 3.x, which is still being maintained.
Thankfully, there are distros like Ubuntu who are refraining from making KDE 4.0 the default until it is mature. Thus, for those who are having problems with 4.0, the problem really lies with the user, as the user would have had to make the choice to move to 4.0 in the first place. (Unless it was a distro that embraced KDE 4.0, in which case the maintainers are to blame.)
If Gnome 3 also allows for some radical changes to its framework, I expect there will be similar complaints, unless it is kept in beta until a mature version is released. This, however, could result in slower development for the exact reasons that convinced the KDE team to name their latest release 4.0.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Insightful)
Where's The Story? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:3, Insightful)
Yet no one knows what the long term design plans for Plasma are. The users keep getting surprised, and they feel that Plasma over-promised and under-delivered.
On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb. He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.
Why don't you ask the Plasma developer*s* (i.e. more than just Aaron)? In addition the KDE feature plans [kde.org] are linked to from the front page of the KDE TechBase. For things not covered there you could add Planet KDE [planetkde.org] to your news reader or subscribe to the panel-devel [kde.org] mailing list. Want to see all commits made just to plasma? Use the KDE commit filter [kde.org].
As far as Aaron he's been under a constant heap of criticism lately because Plasma in KDE 4 is not *exactly like* kicker+kdesktop in KDE 3 so perhaps you can excuse him for being irritable. Perhaps you have examples that are not taken out of context however, instead of just claiming that he hates users? On that note was there an announcement that KDE made that you felt over-promised what Plasma would do? If that's happened we at KDE need to get that rectified.
Gnome already has a few of those problems (removing choice, treating users like they're dumb)
Have you ever thought that taking the trouble to make a program easier to use doesn't necessarily imply that the user is dumb? I'd respond to your specific comment except that you have mentioned none.
For corporate environments, or people who can't be troubled to configure things, they just want working defaults and simplicity. That isn't a flame, but rather the way things are.
A system that just works and is simple to use? Oh heavens, no! If GNOME has already achieved that (I haven't used it in awhile) then that is something to be congratulated for. Defaults that work are a good idea in general and are separate from features. Adding more checkboxes doesn't make a program more powerful.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:3, Insightful)
Some people suggested removing the animation, which was a problem because it interfered with maximized windows, and he said no.
The "cashew" would cover up a window whether it's animated or not. :P
Some people suggested allowing people to move or relocate the cashew because it interfered with panels at the top, and he said no.
Not according to this email [markmail.org]. Looks to me is that Aaron disagrees with the various methods of removing the cashew that have been proposed so far, and that ways to do so that don't suck haven't been proposed in time for KDE 4.1.
Some people suggested having the cashew disappear when the panel is locked, and he said no.
The panel cashew does disappear when the panel is locked but locking the widgets onto the desktop doesn't get rid of other activities. The way I would think to do that is to have the cashew disappear automatically if the one and only activity has its widgets locked but I don't care enough (I mean seriously, a cashew?) to submit a patch.
The worst thing is he repeatedly said everyone was too stupid to understand his design, which he had no intention of explaining. He said users can't comment on design or UI issues. That is a problem.
In all fairness I think this happened after like the third time he tried to explain the same thing and got the same comments back. You can only answer the same question to X number of different people before you too turn into an asshole. ;)
And besides (this came up later I think) I'm pretty sure the exact perjorative term used was not "stupid" but the email thread gives me emotional baggage so I'm not going to dig it up to double-check.
Anyways KDE appreciates and needs user feedback but what we don't need are personal attacks on our developers from users, which is what led to Aaron-hates-assholes-ivus. Really KDE the project kind of let Aaron down on this because he eventually came to receive quite virulent attacks even about software he doesn't write or maintain just because he's the highest profile KDE developer and no one stepped in to get it from getting out of hand.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:3, Insightful)
I am all for learning a new system, but from what I have seen it looks like a circus show.
LOOK PLASMA!!! It can so so much more....
OK.....what can it do?
It can make your desktop not a desktop
Why? What benefit does it give me?
LOOK...SHINY ICONS
and nobody has given me any practical examples of how this helps. Hell, I can even understand some of the practical uses for the compiz/beryl/kwin cube, window jumping, etc.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:3, Insightful)
You know, maybe he chose to be the maintainer because nobody else stepped up and it needed one. He was (is?) a volunteer who donated his own time. You have zero right to demand anything of him. If you want a feature implemented badly, pay someone to do it.
I love the way you complete disregard the part where I said
(not to mean that I don't appreciate his efforts..)
Then again, if you have you wouldn't have your strawman if you did.
But to get back on topic, the GP said I should place a bug report and said that everyone should as it helps the maintainers know that there is a problem. I showed him what happens when people do.
I don't have a problem with maintainers. I have a problem with maintainers that don't listen to the users. Regardless of what you think of them or how whiney they are, they are the ones who use the product. Besides, isn't that the point of all this; to get more people using Linux?
How many users do you think we're going to get by saying:
You have zero right to demand anything of him. If you want a feature implemented badly, pay someone to do it.
Fuck that. I'd rather buy Windows.
Re:All hail letter "g" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Insightful)
Also a recent comment of his was that non-coders on the whole shouldn't be allowed to comment on design issues.
Well this is not going to make it feel any better but those who do not have experience coding often do not understand why their proposed design change does not or cannot work. Not always, but if you're good enough to design it you're typically good enough to code it. Code is just transferring a design into a language syntax. Designing it in the first place to work correctly (or not... ;) is hard.
He also repeatedly said that if you don't read the code, you can't understand the UI. That itself is a problem.
Again, this is probably actually true. Of course you can *see* the UI and point out what sucks about it but sometimes a "trivial" UI change involves a large code change. This is easier to see if you understand how the UI is actually formed from the code in question (i.e. Containments, Applets, Activities, etc. in Plasma-land).
Frankly, end users should be able to pick things up and learn them intuitively. Suggesting that if you don't read the source code, you can't understand the project means there is a serious usability issue.
Sure, but there's also the type of user (and I don't know if this is true in the case you're talking about but bear with me) that does something to the effect of:
User: Hey I noticed this is going on and it sucks, fix it!
Dev: One of:
User: Why don't you just do something like integrate the frobnitz?
Dev: Because it doesn't work like that.
User: No seriously, just integrate here and you're done.
Dev: No you don't get it. The code does not work like that. It cannot work because of reason foo
Now most bug reports we get are good reports and if the dev is actually here to work on it even get resolved to everyone's satisfaction. But we do get reports like these and when it turns into a pissing match between the user and the developer politeness is usually the first thing to go out the window. I've seen Aaron be ganged up on by multiple users in this fashion and it's really disheartening to see as a developer.
Hey, sometimes the developer is even wrong and it can be implemented somehow but that typically happens with a patch (oh, maybe it does work...), which you're not going to get from the same developers by pissing in his Cheerios and acting like a jerk. And in the end (at least in KDE) those who actually do the work get to decide so if Aaron is holding off on changing something because no one has presented a satisfactory technical solution (i.e. no "evil hacks" for bug fixes) then that's how it'll be.