Why Do We Have To Restart Routers? 936
jaypaulw writes "I've owned a WRT54G, some cheap D-Link home Wi-Fi/firewall/routers, and now an Apple Airport Extreme (100/10 ethernet ports). In the context of the discussion about the worst uses of Windows — installation in places where an embedded device is superior — I've gotten to wondering why it's necessary to reboot these devices so frequently, like every few days. It seems like routers, purpose-built with an embedded OS, should be the most stable devices on my network."
rebooting routers? (Score:2, Informative)
It shouldn't be necessary to do that.
Usually, though, it would be either a problem in the firmware leading to instability or a change in routing, DNS, or DHCP assignments that the router can't handle live for some reason. It could also be possible that the firmware allows no changes at all to the running configuration, forcing a restart for any change made in an attempt at making it less hackable.
Who you callin' "We"? (Score:2, Informative)
Um... (Score:1, Informative)
If your having to restart yours every couple of days...something is wrong. The one here at the house has been up for last 173 days. I checked the main router at work and its been up almost 300 days.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Resets aren't necessary. (Score:5, Informative)
TCP Timeout (Score:5, Informative)
TCP connection timeouts on some routers default to 3600 seconds or one hour. So, when you use some Bittorrent or such, opening lots of connections, your router keeps these connections (even after disconnection) in its memory for up to an hour. It fills up and your router grinds to a halt, opening connections very slowly.
There's other timeouts too, but I'm not sure exactly what they do. Firmware like HyperWRT lets you change these timeouts to something much shorter, like 90 seconds, which typically prevents lock-ups like that.
(I'm actually not 100% sure that this is the sole cause for router lock-ups)
I never have to (Score:5, Informative)
I never have to restart my DSL router or Vonage router either, and I've kept all this stuff up 24/7 often with heavy use for years at a time.
If you're restarting networking stuff all the time, perhaps you've misconfigured it...
bad hardware (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Buy one that works. (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, I've used Apple Airports (previously, the "UFO" kind and currently, the Extreme (1Gb ports) and Express (for my home theater) and have never had to do "therapeutic" reboots on them.
But I have been irked due to having to reboot the router to make even the slightest of config changes - such as changing its syslog destination or adding a port to the forwarding table. You'd think that these and other operations, short of a firmware upgrade, could be handled without a full-blown reset, but apparently not. One has to wonder why that is so in this day and age.
Ditto, but had to reset occasionally with defaults (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Buy one that works. (Score:5, Informative)
So you are lucky. My Airport Express needs to be rebooted from time to time (nothing damning, the express sometime stands month without needing it). My previous UFO Apple Airport also needed to be rebooted (and much more frequently than the Express).
The symptom on the Express are that DNS queries stop working. I can ping it, ping my DSL modem, and ping website for which I have IP. I can nslookup into my provider DNS. I cannot lookup into the Express DNS.
Another issue is that sometimes, I start getting more and more lag. Rebooting the mac or the DSL model doesn't fix it. But I discovered, amazed, that rebooting the express fixed it.
Btw "Buy one that works" is an extremely arrogant comment. Those units work for you, it does not prove it works for anyone else.
Yes, there is a pro-sumer router (Score:3, Informative)
I had several "consumer" grade routers before finally finding the Dlink gamer lounge.
I've never been happier. I've had it for almost 2 years and I never have to reset it. The wireless always works, the gigabit is nice and the "Gamefuel" QOS is fairly effective.
The $100+ linksys routers aren't much improved over their $50 brethren, but the $100+ Dlink most certainly is.
Re:I never have to (Score:3, Informative)
The manufacturer's firmware in the DI-624 I used to have, as well as the original WRT54G that I flashed with Tomato, weren't hard to crash at all. Between gaming (I run a Halflife server among other things), multiple VPNs I use with my customers, Bit Torrent, VoIP (AT&T CallVantage) and some other things on my server, Tomato hasn't even stuttered, not once.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
I'm a network admin for an ISP, and we've been recommending UPSs for the frequent-reboot routers that our customers have. We've found that routers (especially Linksys) have a real problem with power fluctuations that most other systems and devices don't notice. A decent line-conditioning UPS might solve your problems, but a cheap one will suffice.
Also, could be the device is running out of memory, if your ISP is changing the properties of your connection a lot, or you might have a duplex issue causing a lot of retransmissions. . .
Just a couple of thoughts :)
Re:Ditto, but had to reset occasionally with defau (Score:3, Informative)
I have a similar setup on my Linksys WRT54GS. With the factory software it would lock up every other week -- wouldn't pass traffic and I couldn't log into it. Had to pull power to reset it. I loaded DD-WRT (23v2) and set it as you described and it has never failed to pass traffic, although every 3-4 months I can't access it from the Web GUI for some reason. I can still telnet into it though, so I just login from there and reset it.
I have a second WRT54GS (on it's own subnet providing open access to anyone in the area) and it's never locked me out of the GUI, although it doesn't pass nearly the traffic mine does.
I used to have a Blitzz router/AP that required rebooting every 3.5 days, regular as clockwork, regardless of traffic or number of connections. Pitched it in the dumpster when I got the second WRT54GS.
Re:My theory... (Score:5, Informative)
I think you're right. This seems to be especially common on D-Link routers. I used to run a DI-624 which was stable for years, until one day it just started rebooting itself. Did it infrequently at first, but progressed to the point where it rebooted continuously and was unuseable. Poking around, I discovered that the AC adapter (power brick) was not only VERY warm, the plastic shell was actually deformed a little on one side. I replaced the AC adapter, and the router worked good as new... until a few years later, when AGAIN it started rebooting, then stopped working entirely. And AGAIN, the AC adapter was at fault (totally dead this time). And again, replacing the AC adapter resurrected the DI-624.
It seems to me that the manufacturers of residential-class routers really skimp on the power supply, or at least D-Link does. The AC adapters they've bundled in recent years are smaller than a deck of cards, yet I'm supposed to believe that they can put out 3 amps of current at 5VDC indefinitely?
Re:A $50 Router Stable? (Score:1, Informative)
Cisco's 800, 1800, and 2800 line are certainly affordable (where "affordable" is closer to the $1000 mark than some free-after-rebate special).
I go this route these days instead of flashing el-cleapos because I don't have the time I did when I was young and single. Sure, the 2801 with a DSL WIC is way more expensive, but I never have to touch the damn thing.
I don't have to restart mine (Score:2, Informative)
Re:A $50 Router Stable? (Score:4, Informative)
Here's two: Soekris [soekris.com], Mikrotik/Routerboard [routerboard.com].
Re:The most likely reason (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The most likely reason (Score:2, Informative)
I just want to second the UPS suggestion. For a few months, my apartment complex had brief power fluctuations at least once a week. My cable modem would mysteriously stop passing packets after each of these power blips until a full reset was performed. Sticking a small, cheap UPS on the modem solved the problem.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The most likely reason (Score:4, Informative)
My off hand guess, Bittorrents. I've noticed with the WRT54G that I had for a while would have problems if you're running multiple torrents, and don't have any cap on how many inbound and outbound connections there can be (IE, overnight runs where you don't need to use any of your bandwidth :-) A reboot always fixed the problem - I assume it's either running out of memory, or running out of ports to work with (since each connection has a timeout of an hour, IIRC)
tcpip timeout, too many connections (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
Now I have a Buffalo G125 with dd-wrt and is AMAZING (good luck finding one of them these days in the states after their legal troubles though). The last time I had a necessary reboot was when I upgraded the firmware (to enable cool things like bandwidth graphs). Sometimes I will reboot it when it is not necessary--such as when comcast has some sort of unknown network issue so my first thought is to start powercycling things until I remember the cable modem's IP and see that there are connection errors in the log. Other than that, rock solid stable with 5 active users and a good deal of game/torrent traffic.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The most likely reason (Score:1, Informative)
I have to agree on the UPS. I have owned a long list of routers as well, and often had issues requiring reboots. Eventually, I put in a UPS with power conditioning, and the problem completely went away. I was surprised, and have run all my home network/servers UPS'd since.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
So pay $70 to get a WRT54GL, then use some different firmware like DD-WRT or tomato on it. Cheap, and they even make installing it and all easy, as easy as the "normal" routers are to configure, and it'll get you those long uptimes.
If you don't like your crappy router, fix it. It's not that hard.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:2, Informative)
I used to think D-Link routers were crap. Then I got a Linksys WRT54G, and my life went to hell. Constant lockups, power cycles, and constantly losing DNS service... It was batshit insane.
And then my folks got a D-Link 605 (the draft-N one) from a copy of Vista, and I inherited it. My connection has been ROCK SOLID ever since, NEVER have to reboot that thing. Their firmware also does more than the WRT54G.
In short, Linksys sucks, go D-Link.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Buy one that works. (Score:5, Informative)
Most likely, jcr is using MAC filtering [wikipedia.org] (capitalization == acronym; it has nothing to do with Apple's Mac computers). I have yet to use a consumer router that did not want to restart after you changed router settings, and adding a new MAC address [wikipedia.org] to the access list would require a restart. Hence, restarting the router when letting another computer use the network. Some people actually care about the security of their network; living in a major urban area with a lot of neighbors generally encourages it.
You may wish to look into using MAC filtering [wikipedia.org] and a strong WPA2 [wikipedia.org] password to protect your wireless network.
I also have a gig-E Airport Extreme, and it has been rock-solid stable for me; the only restarts have been for either changes I have made to the settings or for a firmware update. (I've done one of the latter since I got it.) It's been up continuously since it replaced a 10/100 wireless-G Netgear that constantly needed reboots, whenever I put any kind of load on my network. (It locked up constantly.*) If I hammer the Airport Extreme, it performs flawlessly. I still think that it was a great upgrade decision, but I'm sure that I'll get bashed as an Apple-fanboy because of it (most likely by people who can't differentiate between "MAC [wikipedia.org]" and "Mac [wikipedia.org]"). ;)
* To mitigate my Netgear bashing slightly: I've had nothing but success with wired Netgear products. The wired router by them that I used to have worked great, and their gigabit switch that I currently use has worked admirably well, without issue. I just should have gotten a wireless router from them that would have run Linux. ;)
Re:The most likely reason (Score:3, Informative)
Re:It shouldn't be... (Score:3, Informative)
I would appreciate even a link on how to underclock a CPU on OpenBSD.
OS is irrelevant. When the machine starts, you need to go into the BIOS. That probably means pressing F1 or Del. Somewhere in there will be speed settings (maybe "clock" and "multiplier" with that age of machine). Write down the original settings. Then, start dropping the speed. If you have "clock" and "multiplier", drop multiplier first. Drop a little bit, save, reboot. Make sure the OS still works. If it does, drop another notch. Repeat until you run out of settings, it's too slow for its intended purpose, or it starts to feel like Windows Vista.
If you go too far, either try rebooting (some machines will always boot into the BIOS at a safe speed), or open up the case and take out the little battery overnight. When you put it back, the BIOS should reset to something useable.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:3, Informative)
Current firmware? (Score:3, Informative)
Constant lockups, power cycles, and constantly losing DNS service... It was batshit insane.
Sometimes a firmware update can help. Not always but I do find it worthwhile updating the firmware and it has fixed problems for me in the past.. Having it on a UPS helps too; make sure you shield the data cables as well as the power cables. There are a few linksys units however that simply never seem to work reliably. My father has one. Just can't seem to hold a reliable connection for some reason. Mine on the other hand works damn near flawlessly.
Spot on. Clean power == higher stability (Score:1, Informative)
Any equipment worth running well, is worth putting on a decent UPS with AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulation). A good UPS isn't expensive, but it will turn the seriously ugly power in many homes (like drops below 100v when the A/C or the fridge kicks on) into a perfectly nice 120v at a smooth 60hz and keep it pegged there.
Personally, I find less reboots required for devices and appliances, much longer life of server components, and overall increased stability.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:2, Informative)
Re:The most likely reason (Score:2, Informative)
Agreed. The WRT54G was a good piece of equipment. Unfortunately, I have a version 6. It needed to be rebooted every few days, with only 1/2 dozen machines connected... at the most. When I upgraded my Macbook Pro to Leopard, the reboots were more frequent. I installed the DD-WRT micro, and it has been solid ever since. It has not needed a single reboot... I guess I can skip Plan B, which was to run the router over with a large truck.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
In theory, none of those routers should need a UPS, just a better AC-DC converter perhaps with a bigger capacitor across the DC lines. I've never investigated the quality of the wall warts they supply with routers, but my guess is they are very cheap and simply don't handle voltage fluctuations as well as they should.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
The problem I've had with dd-wrt and torrents is the max tcp connections is by default very low. Not something you would notice under normal traffic, but during swarms it can fill up fairly quickly.
It give the appearance the unit has locked up since it is difficult to establish a tcp connection. These will bleed away eventually and allow a connection to be established.
I just set the max number of tcp ports and it fairs fairly well using bit torrent now.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
Linksys is the one manufacturer that's on my "never" list. My previous employer used to use their hubs and cascaded them into a network switch. The darn things kept losing track of what MAC addresses were hanging off them and refusing to route traffic. You only have to have one complete and utter failure like that to be written off in my book.
That said, I've recently also written off Netgear. After about my fourth or fifth Netgear card went dead (I think I have one left that is still functioning after three or four years), I started avoiding their cards like the plague. Then, I bought one of their consumer hubs a couple of months ago and it was dropping something like 80% of the packets that went through it (between any two devices including upstream). I took it back to Fry's and replaced it with a D-Link and it worked flawlessly. (And no, I didn't have something hooked up to the uplink and the non-uplink port beside it. Been there, done that.)
Bottom line is that after three hard drive failures in the course of a little over a month (yes, I have a third Seagate drive misbehaving massively, randomly corrupting data), I've pretty much come to the conclusion that nearly all electronics built today are mass-Chinese-manufactured crap that barely works and doesn't even do that for very long. Very sad, really.
Re:Yes, there is a pro-sumer router (Score:3, Informative)
Connection Up Time : 617 day(s), 12:04:53
Sick.
My last router was a WRT54GL that decided to brick itself after about three months of DD-WRT. I think I should agree with some of the above posts that offloading network services can help these routers, but I'm not sure. I run my own DNS and DHCP, so this router has never had to bear that load.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
Also, jam the TCP timeout way down low. That will do wonders.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
Mine is sitting on my server...
Have not rebooted it since I moved (~1 year)
really, I think it's power issues. This same router gave me tons of greif at my previous place, but when I moved I put it on the UPS and no issues since...
-nB
Re:Buy one that works. (Score:3, Informative)
This may be just anecdotal evidence, but the Airport Express series has a reputation for being flaky, and typically dropping flat-out dead after about a year.
I don't want to absolutely bad-mouth the product, because I've also got an Airport Extreme base station that has never needed rebooting in the few years that I've had it, and because I've also got an AE Express that's worked fine for me the entire time I've had it. However, the Airport Express seems to be based around *much* different hardware than its bigger, more expensive cousins, which are put in the same league as high-end gear from Cisco and the like, rather than the $50 boxes from Linksys that most of us have in our homes.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:2, Informative)
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The most likely reason (Score:4, Informative)
That was rated funny, but truth be told I have seen Vista Laptops screw up networks often.
Especially with out Linux Fileservers, XP computers and Laptops can access them fine, but while the Vista machines sees the Fileserver in the "Network and Sharing Centre" as soon as you try to access the server Vista claims that the server "Does not exist or may be switched off"
Apparently there is a registry hack for this...
Re:The most likely reason (Score:4, Informative)
I like the way you think. alix2c3 [pcengines.ch] uses 6 Watts - a little more with a VPN card installed. I agree on keeping the wireless devices separate, they're just not gonna be rock solid.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
This MS KB may help.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/932134 [microsoft.com]
There is also an MS KB related to the broadcast flag which may be what is being referred to.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/928233 [microsoft.com]
Re:The most likely reason (Score:3, Informative)
Some folks prefer a little more control. Personally, I run my own caching DNS on my laptop, as well as on my main server at home.
These stanzas in my /etc/named.conf are the only thing that make web browsing bearable for me:
zone "intellitxt.com" in {
type master;
file "junk.zone";
};
zone "doubleclick.net" in { ...
type master;
file "junk.zone";
};
viola:/var/lib/named> cat junk.zone
$TTL 1W
@ IN SOA @ root (
42 ; serial (d. adams)
2D ; refresh
4H ; retry
6W ; expiry
1W ) ; minimum
IN NS @
IN A 0.0.0.0
Re:Vista (Score:5, Informative)
Same here. The condition that tripped the problem went as follows:
My laptop = Ubuntu (latest)
Wife's laptop = Vista Home Premium.
Both wireless.
We're surfing, everything is running great. I'd hit a site that had lots of images all on one page (think Fark's 'Photoshop this pic' page')
Bang, network goes dead.
I'd restart the router and my box would come back online no problem. Vista would not re-establish a connection. Repair (or whatever it's called in Vista) failed. We'd need to reboot her computer.
Searched the web and found that this same problem happens and seems to be related to the router.
Switched to a Netgear VPN824V3 and the problem has pretty much disappeared.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:3, Informative)
My wrt54g V4 may be a 12w device, but the power brick it came with is less than 50% efficient.
I went ahead and went with the VxWorks one for my mom. It comes with a much better switching supply. Hopefully it will work well for her.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:5, Informative)
Mine is, I have a Soekris net4501 running OpenBSD 4.2. Nice and quiet, low power, high reliability. And the smallest CF I could find was a 1gig, so I have the entire installation, sans X on that puppy. Full support for VLANS, OSPF, Pf, the works. All in a small, quiet, low power, albeit ugly green case.
Re:The most likely reason (Score:2, Informative)