What Does It Take To Get a PC With XP? 513
An anonymous reader writes "Christopher Null tried to buy a computer with Windows XP pre-installed on it from the United States' nine biggest PC makers. His findings: You can get one, but be prepared to fib."
How is this difficult? (Score:4, Informative)
I constantly purchase Dell computers for my work. They come with XP Pre-Installed but they also have a Vista license.
Now for a normal home user, this may be different, but I've had no problems at all.
Maybe it's for the kind of computer...I purchase Latitudes, and precision computers. If someone wanted an Inspirion it may be different.
Article is slashdotted. Here is a mirror: (Score:5, Informative)
What does it take to get a PC with XP?
Our reporter tried to buy a computer with Windows XP preinstalled on it from the United States' nine biggest PC makers. His findings: You can get one, but be prepared to fib.
Christopher Null (PC World (US online)) 17/07/2008 15:58:43
I won't waste time rehashing the argument over whether Windows Vista is any good. The fact remains that lots of people prefer Windows XP, and they'll go to great lengths to get it.
The problem: Windows XP "officially" went off the market on June 30, 2008, and computer vendors aren't supposed to sell new machines configured with any version of Windows except Vista.
Fortunately for XP enthusiasts and Vista vetoers, the PC marketplace still has a loophole or two in it. In response to pressure from customers, Microsoft has made some concessions for people who really want XP, offering a lifeline for users willing and able to wade through the company's convoluted downgrading program. The upshot is that virtually every copy of Vista Business or Vista Ultimate Edition is sold with a license for XP, which a computer manufacturer can exercise to install XP Professional on any Vista Business or Vista Ultimate PC.
But just because a manufacturer can install XP doesn't mean that it will. And just because its official policy permits it to sell XP machines doesn't mean that its employees understand that policy.
To find out how difficult it is to get a new XP machine these days, I asked the nine largest PC vendors in the United States--Dell, HP, Gateway, Toshiba, Acer, Fujitsu, Lenovo, Sony, and Asus--about the specifics of their downgrade policies. Then, to see how closely the official story synced up with the reality in the marketplace, I called sales representatives for each company and asked them whether I could purchase a new laptop equipped with XP from them.
The verdict? Downgrade policies are all over the map, and more than a few rank-and-file sales reps have a sketchy understanding of those policies. Some notebook PC sellers make getting XP preinstalled on a new laptop a snap; others don't offer it under any circumstance. As a rule of thumb, your odds of finding a machine with XP and a sales rep who knows how to configure a machine with that OS are far greater if you call the business sales line instead of the consumer sales line. (Be prepared to fib and say you're planning to buy 25 computers during the next 12 months.) Getting XP via online purchase can be tricky, too.
Here's how each manufacturer's formal policy--and informal reality--shakes out.
Dell
The Official Word: Dell has one of the most extensive and detailed policies on Windows XP of the nine vendors I investigated, but getting XP preinstalled on a machine may cost you extra. The company outlines the situation in this blog posting, where the company explains that though the XP downgrade program targets corporate customers, it's an option for general consumers, too. Though the rules are complicated, they are in line with those of most other sellers. To be eligible for an XP downgrade, you must be purchasing a Latitude laptop, an OptiPlex desktop, a Precision workstation, a Vostro laptop or desktop, an XPS 630 desktop, or an M1730 laptop. The machine must be specced to come with Vista Business or Vista Ultimate, and you can downgrade only to XP Professional. You must pay a $20 to $50 fee for the downgrade if you're buying a Vostro or XPS; corporate clients receive the downgrade at no charge. The program is slated to run until January 31, 2009, but Dell says that even after that it will continue to make some enterprise-level exceptions.
The Real Deal: Alas, not all Dell reps seemed to be up to speed on the company's XP strategy. First I tried to purchase an Inspiron running XP for "home use" (that's not covered in Dell's policy, but I decided to try my luck anyway). The harried sales rep I spoke to told me, "We don't have any computers running XP any more." After some pushing, he acknowledged that "I think business has them" but ins
Try different suppliers (Score:5, Informative)
Vista vs XP (Score:5, Informative)
Not that a large discussion needs to be had here as the article likely pertains (OCIDNRTFA) to home ownership, but I've chosen to start using Vista at work as of about 3 weeks ago.
And it's, uh, fine. I have 2 GB of memory installed, Vista boots up to use half of that. Firefox, Thunderbird, Photoshop, server admin tools, web design programs are what I use mostly (and putty). The re-install process of everything got a little old with the administrator prompts (I run as a normal user, something I was reluctant to do in XP), but at the same time, it's nice not to have to choose Run as... all the time.
We use it at home on a laptop as well (the kids' gaming machine is XP) and aside from taking 30 seconds to connect to the wireless after sleeping, it's fine.
I think I just don't have any really high-performance needs, so Vista actually works for me. Whole Disk encryption is easier as well with Vista I hear, though I don't use it.
Re:How is this difficult? (Score:5, Informative)
Corporate customers get significant leeway in their orders, especially if a contract was signed beforehand. Even without those, however, most corporate customers have access through Microsoft to Windows XP under Open, Select, or Software Assurance licenses and if the Vista licenses that come with the computer fall under the terms of those agreements, they may legally downgrade. (There may be some other situations in which a customer may legally install a prior version of Windows, but I'm kind of fuzzy on what they may be.)
Re:How is this difficult? (Score:5, Informative)
Go to the Dell website. Click on the computers (either notebook or desktop) for Small/Home Office, instead of for consumers. There, you'll find a product line called the Vostro, which offers the same hardware as the Inspiron line of product, but a different aesthetic look/feel. The difference? On the Vostro, you have an option to upgrade from Vista Home Basic to Vista Business edition... last I checked, it was $90. One of the two Business options is to have it come with XP Professional pre-installed.
It's not hard. You don't have to lie. You don't have to be a business to order it. And you can order it through the website without having to speak to a sales rep. (though you can also ask for it over the phone)
Re:How is this difficult? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:With XP? How about without Windows? (Score:5, Informative)
It'd be great if some laptops were sold with a blank harddrive
You mean, "Isn't it great that plenty of laptops are sold with blank hard drives." Go to pricewatch.com and check the 'laptops, no OS' section or google for 'laptop barebones'. They'll all be the original brands, Clevo, Compal, Asus, etc, and not the reseller brands, Sony, Dell, HP, etc. But it'll be the same thing and cost less. What you get with the big names is 1: a support phone line, 2: the exact same laptop with a brand name sticker strangers will respect you for being able to afford and, of course 3: Windows.
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Why purchase XP at all? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How is this difficult? (Score:5, Informative)
What the heck? This may somehow shake your current view of the world, but most people here are "normal home users". No matter what their technical knowledge is, no matter how many PCs they have, no matter what OS they use, anybody who isn't purchasing hardware exclusively for their profession is classed as a home user.
Do you meet the requirements for dealing with business customers? Are you employed to make decisions on hardware purchases (and if you do it obviously shouldn't be used privately)? Do you own your own business? Can the computers be depreciated on your tax? If not, you're a normal run-of-the-mill home user.
Re:Torrent (Score:2, Informative)
Disclaimer: by reading this you understand and agree that everything that is written in this article is for educational use only, and none of it should be used at any circumstances, and if you choose to use this information for any kind of action you take full responsibility for it and release Anonymous Coward of any responsibility. If you do not agree to whats written here, stop reading now!
First, look on the internet for an ISO with the SHA1 66ac289ae27724c5ae17139227cbe78c01eefe40. Google or any torrent portal should turn up enough seeds. Make sure you verify the downloaded ISO, which is the MSDN XP3 Volume License ISO, as can be checked here [microsoft.com] (look for Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 3 - VL (x86) - CD (English) and click on Show details).
The VL versions of XP do not require activation, but do require a valid VL key entered during installation (which are different from retail and OEM keys from the stickers on your desktop/laptop). There are keygens out there that generate them (beware of trojans though!), but most keys will fail WGA checks, as they were not issued by Microsoft. What you need is a VL key from a very large institution such as big universities or corporations (which have low risk of getting blacklisted by Microsoft). If you (or someone you know) can run programs on one of these corporate/institutional systems, you can use this keyfinder [magicaljellybean.com] to retrieve the VL key. After installing the VL disk with such a key, you'll have no problems with any WGA checks until Microsoft decides to block that key.
Re:With XP? How about without Windows? (Score:5, Informative)
I bought a T81 from Lenovo with SuSe Linux 10 on it; no windows tax. That was direct from Lenovo.com
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The easy way... (Score:5, Informative)
NO.
The steps I've seen documented are:
1) Get an XP CD and key. The CD has to match the key (e.g., OEM CD with OEM key, retail CD with retail key). Just to answer a FAQ: Yes, ANY. Even if it's an already activated copy of XP, or with OEM versions, bound to another machine and activated. Heck, it can be activated through Microsoft, too. You just need a legic CD and key, regardless of whether or not it's been activated, requires activation, what have you. (BTW, I think you need XP Pro - you can't downgrade to XP Home... but I could be wrong (Vista Home->XP Home? I know Vista Buziness+ -> XP Pro).
2) Use that CD and key to install XP.
3) When you activate, choose the phone option, and call Microsoft. Tell them you're downgrading your Vista to XP, and give them your Vista key, the code that the phone-activation shows (and possibly the key you're using). They'll then give you a code to enter in to activate it.
You cannot do an internet activation (since Microsoft needs to know you're exercising your downgrade rights).
Re:Why purchase XP at all? (Score:2, Informative)
I wouldn't say the problems have all gone away. I had my first experience with a brand new Vista Home Premium laptop recently. My "issues":
- On the first boot, I expect it to have to do some housekeeping and setup stuff. That's fine. But part of this process included it sitting there completely frozen (mouse cursor wouldn't move) for 10 min with no progress bar or any indication that it was doing anything other than the fact that the harddrive was going.
- I installed Vista SP1 and all available security and driver updates first.
- I have a fairly popular printer: the HP LaserJet 1200. I installed the Windows drivers for it, but they limited me to 600dpi. This is a 1200dpi printer, and under Windows XP I can print at 1200dpi using HP's drivers. So, I downloaded the Vista drivers for this printer from HP's website and tried to install them. The result? During the installation process, something crashed and brought down the entire Vista printing subsystem. (I had to go into services and restart the print spooler.) So, I'm stuck printing to a 1200dpi printer at 600dpi.
- This was my sister's laptop, and she has some favourite games she wanted installed on them. Some of them were not designed for Vista. I tried installing one of them under a limited user account, and the installer crashed. Well, fine, maybe I won't get all these old games working under Vista. But the installer stayed crashed, and when I tried to kill the process in task manager, the entire system froze and I had to hard power off.
Now, you could say that some of those problems are caused by "3rd-party software". But step back and look at the big picture. This is not a good first impression for a new operating system to make, and all of the software I tried to use did work flawlessly under Windows XP. These are, in fact, exactly the problems people were complaining about a year ago, and it looks to me very much like they have not gone away today, even after SP1.
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:5, Informative)
However, recently the first sale right was upheld by the court in the Softman v. Adobe case - Softman was the guy who wanted to sell an Adobe Product via e-bay. Technically, they said, if the license is "forever" it can be considered a product being sold.
From http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5628 [linuxjournal.com] :
"The Court understands fully why licensing has many advantages for software publishers. However, this preference does not alter the Court's analysis that the substance of the transaction at issue here is a sale and not a license," Judge Pregerson writes. If you put your money down and walked away with a CD, you bought that copy, EULA or no EULA.
More info in the wikipedia entry [wikipedia.org].
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:3, Informative)
Last I heard (a few years ago now), Jaguar had at least 24 XJ220's in a warehouse, the result of canceled pre-orders based on the prototype car having a V12 engine and all wheel drive. The production version had a turbo V6, rear wheel drive, and a 30% price increase.
Re:How is this difficult? (Score:3, Informative)
I purchase Latitudes, and precision computers. If someone wanted an Inspirion it may be different.
Good thing the Inspiron comes with Ubuntu.
Re:Vista vs XP (Score:4, Informative)
Good question. So far I personally have gained:
1) Actual easier use of admin rights while running under a normal user account and therefore better security (as you're more likely to run as a normal user)
2) The snippet tool (ok, this is just handy, and I'm sure is duplicated in lots of freeware)
3) Better performance monitor
4) 64-bit support (don't mention XP 64...that OS isn't really usable)
There are other functions I haven't delved into yet such as the easier whole disk encryption, single-image installation, etc.
I'm not saying it's worth the jump from XP, but having actually tried it from a user's perspective, it's not as horrible as I'd imagined.
Re:How is this difficult? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Why purchase XP at all? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:1, Informative)
pay to receive calls? You all are nuts to swallow that
In countries where the callee pays, calls to cell phones cost the same as calls to landlines. In other countries, calls to cell phones are typically very expensive. The network operators can compete on the outbound prices and make the money with inbound calls. Few cell phone owners care how much it costs to call them, because they're not the ones who pay that price. This pricing model causes network ghettoisation, because calls to other cell phone networks are expensive, so people tend to choose the network where their friends are. That raises the barrier for people who want to switch to another network, i.e. it is an impediment to competition. In the EU, the only force which has caused the interconnection fees to go down is government regulation (but calling a cell phone is still ridiculously expensive).
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:3, Informative)
It's still there, but that doesn't stop anyone from suing you for bogus reasons and proceeding to drag out the suit for years until you run out of money to pay your defense lawyer(s).
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:4, Informative)
Re:How is this difficult? (Score:1, Informative)
Anyone can buy one with XP preloaded at www.microcenter.com.
Look for a system with "Windows XP downgrade rights". These come with XP preloaded, and a Vista license and disk to upgrade to Vista, should you ever want to.
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:3, Informative)
It is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP for use in new computers.
The right of first sale has been consistently upheld by every court decision I am aware of. Do you know something I don't?
The GP was incorrect in that it generally is not illegal to resell XP or other software. However, that is a bit misleading because most Windows licenses cannot be reused due to the terms of OEM OS licenses. The license is valid only on the computer with which it was sold so you're limited to selling only the boxed retail copies of Windows. Additionally, when the marketplace ignores the right of first sale (as eBay does), it make it difficult to sell the product even if you have the legal right to do so.
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:5, Informative)
Americans PAY to receive cellphone calls? Can someone confirm that? Do people find this ridiculous, or is this commonly accepted?
Yes, it's true, and it's commonly accepted. The reason is a bit long.
Historically, cell phone service cost quite a bit more to provide than landline service, so someone has to pay more when a cell phone is part of a call.
Most of the world has taken the view that the caller should pay more when calling a cell phone, and that the cell phone recipient shouldn't pay for the call.
In the USA, people have long been used to making unlimited local calls on landlines.
Unlike many countries, cell phones in the USA (and Canada) do not have a reserved numbering scheme where the phone number clearly identifies that this number is a cell phone.
It was tried to have a reserved numbering scheme to identify cell phones and charge the caller more for calling a cell phone. The market overwhelmingly rejected it. People said, "You want me to pay more to call you on your cell phone? Get a real phone you piece of [censored] yuppie!" and refused to call. For market acceptance, the caller could not be charged extra to call a cell phone.
So, the only other person to charge for the call was the cell phone owner.
So, US cellphone ownwers pay to make & receive calls. On the other hand, it doesn't cost more to call a cellphone instead of a landline, and it usually costs less to make an outgoing call from a cell phone.
Frankly, many of you non-USians are getting screwed on calls. I once called my friend on her mobile in Sydney, Australia. My call had to cross the entire Pacific ocean, but I still paid less to talk to her than her mother (located in Sydney, Australia) does to call her on her mobile. Why? Competition and not having to deal with the local oligopoly.
Further, cellphone calls are getting very cheap in the US. Many carriers have unlimited plans for $100 USD or less - unlimited incoming & outgoing local calls, domestic long distance, data, and SMS.
Buy local! (Score:1, Informative)
I work in a local computer store in the state of washington. Do you know what our #1 question is from customers? "Do you still sell computers with XP?"
Our statistics are as follows:
for 2007 we sold 20 copies of windows sold, 19 were xp and 1 was vista. That's 95%! You tell me microsoft is listening to their customers? BULL! Their customers are the businesses calling us up to get 30-packs of OEM XP before December.
Dell, HP, and whoever else microsoft has in their pocket, won't even support a vista laptop that's been converted to XP. We're not asking for much, just a driver or two, but they just say "unsupported on that model".
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:3, Informative)
The vast majority of American phone plans are a flat rate for a fixed number of minutes, not a per-minute charge. For home phone service, it's usually a flat rate for an unlimited number of minutes (some plans even give unlimited long distance). Apparently, given a choice, people prefer paying the same amount every month instead of a variable amount depending on the calls they make and take. So a "caller pays" system doesn't work since someone with unlimited home service could call 24/7 to someone with a cell phone.
It's one of those "fairness vs. simplicity" things, like no-fault insurance. In this case, simplicity won out. On the flip side, Americans don't need to keep track of which numbers are home or mobile (because calling them costs the same), and we're free to port our home phone number to our cell phone or vice versa when changing service.
Another contributing factor is probably due to cell phones being invented in the U.S. Way back when they were new and phone calls cost like $5/min, there was a "rich bastard" stigma associated with them. The feeling was that if some rich bastard wanted to flaunt his wealth by walking around talking on a cell phone, he damn well better be the one paying for those minutes, not the person who might call him.
Re:How is this difficult? (Score:4, Informative)
What? Dell's Optiplexs come with XP by default. No extra charge. You get a Vista upgrade CD with it.
How freakin hard is it for slashdottters to visit www.dell.com? Does it not work in Firefox or something?!? This whole thread is hilarious.
Let me summarize: Anyone, no matter where they work, or what they do, can easily order a PC with XP on it, especially from Dell. Heck I was browsing Optiplex 755 order specs yesterday (on a freaking iPhone for crying out loud) and was happy to see XP was the default OS...
Re:How is this difficult? (Score:3, Informative)
You can also go Alienware's website (which is now owned by Dell). I picked out an Area 51 and clicked "customize". Halfway down the page I was offered not one, but two XP options:
( ) Genuine Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 - DirectX 9 Only! [-$50]
( ) Genuine Windows XP Professional - DirectX 9 Only!
Doesn't even cost extra. I also wouldn't call Alienware as targeted to a corporate audience either.
Re:How is this difficult? (Score:3, Informative)
Good luck finding XP drivers for any of nVidia's newer mobile graphics. I had to hack the .inf file to get the ForceWare installer to recognize my 8600M GS in my HP DV9825 under windows xp pro.
Re:Why purchase XP at all? (Score:3, Informative)
Vista SP1 runs slower than XP SP3 on the same hardware for network operations (copy, unrar etc). It's noticeably 'laggier' for general UI interfaces. There were some benches around a while back showing the disparity.
I've noticed it on a number of systems, I have 4 pcs currently with dual or triple boot (vista, xp, ubuntu) - all with 2-4GB of RAM, dual or quad core 2's etc, so it's not hardware lacking.
Mind you, if your hardware is anything less than ninja, vista will CRAWL.
I sysadmin a 1200 user network. Virtually every staff member that's had a vista laptop issued over the last year has come in and asked us to switch it back to XP. It's noticeably slower for what they do with it, and the amount of drivers for printers, cameras and other user devices is still severely lacking. Whole swathes of user devices are not supported by the vendors for vista, and never will be. "Buy our new version instead". Sucks if you wanted to carry on using that wifi card, or printer, or camera, or scanner, or webcam etc etc you already had that worked fine on XP.
Worse, there's plenty of applications that don't run, and never will. Windows 98 or 2000 era apps that users love and can't live without are ample in the real world, and the worst case, but there's plenty of XP-era apps that don't run either.
Vista can't do many things that XP can, and is sluggish in many operations for many users. I use it where I must, but otherwise it is a failure.
Re:With XP? How about without Windows? (Score:3, Informative)
Anyone know if I talk to Lenovo I can get them to sell me the laptop without Windows?
Ask them:
http://www.lenovo.com/contact/us/en/ [lenovo.com]
1-866-96-THINK
If they do, they'll tell you. If they don't, then they need to hear it from us that we want to be able to buy systems without the MS tax. If we don't ask, they will never know that's what we want.
Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The easy way... (Score:3, Informative)
I think you need XP Pro - you can't downgrade to XP Home... but I could be wrong (Vista Home->XP Home? I know Vista Buziness+ -> XP Pro).
According to Microsoft the only copies that let you downgrade are Vista Business and Vista Ultimate, there is no downgrade rights w/ Vista Home.
Tigerdirect (Score:3, Informative)
Tigerdirect still sells PC's with XP, both desktops and laptops. You can even buy a barebones system with XP (not preinstalled)
They have good prices too.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/ [tigerdirect.com]
Re:Why purchase XP at all? (Score:3, Informative)
Really? All the Vista issues from a year ago are gone now?
Please tell me, then, how to get our HP Designjet 500 42" plotter working in Vista? Because apparently, HP has no drivers for anything newer than Windows XP for it (or many other older, but expensive large format plotters of theirs).
That alone is a great reason for our company to stick with XP Pro.
Just downgrade from Vista business or "higher" (Score:5, Informative)
You can just purchase a PC with vista business or "higher". Then just install Windows XP on it. When prompted for an activation code, just use a code from another PC.
Then you'll find it often won't activate through the internet, so you call Microsoft on the number displayed on the screen. Then you'll get a representative and you'll them him/her you're downgrading from windows vista business to XP.
On rare occasions they'll ask you for the Windows vista business license code. Next, you'll get the code by phone and just activate it.
We use this procedure all the time on all of our new computers.
Re:That's Microsoft for you (Score:3, Informative)
Wireless telephones [wikipedia.org] were invented in the U.S in 1908.
The concept of cells and handoffs between cells [wikipedia.org] were also invented in the U.S. by AT&T / Bell Labs in 1947 and 1971 respectively.
The first commercial cell phone network was rolled out in Chicago in 1978 using AMPS (albeit as a trial - full commercial service didn't begin until 1983). Japan was next in 1979. NMT didn't show up until 1981. There appears to have been an earlier cell-based wireless phone system in Finland in 1971, but it didn't have seamless handoffs between cells. I consider handoffs a requirement to qualify as a "cell phone" - if you say handoffs aren't required, then the first mobile phones date to the 1950s.
Actually, Motorola made the world's first hand-holdable cell phone in 1973, based on what eventually became AMPS. And as I explained above the U.S. was at the forefront of analog cell phone development. Where the U.S. fell behind was during the switch from analog to digital. The analog network was so built-up and entrenched in the U.S. that there was considerable resistance and lack of frequencies to switch to digital. Japan and Europe, with denser population centers serviceable by fewer digital cells, made the switch to digital first.
CDMA has some important bandwidth advantages over TDMA (which GSM is based on). With TDMA (time division multiple access), each operating phone gets a timeslice and so eats up a fixed slice of bandwidth regardless of whether it's transmitting voice or silence. With CDMA (code division multiple access), the orthogonality is in the codes, not in timeslices or frequency, so the phone only uses bandwidth if it's transmitting voice. This gave CDMA enough of an advantage that in the U.S. they (Verizon, Sprint) easily beat out the TDMA networks (AT&T, T-Mobile). This is also why CDMA networks in the U.S. and Japan were able to roll out 3G data speeds years before the GSM networks. The CDMA networks could just transmit data the same way they did voice. The GSM/TDMA networks had to design an entirely new transmission system (HSDPA) to get around the bandwidth limitations.
It's enough of an advantage that UMTS (3GPP or 3GSM), the European successor to GSM, is based on wideband CDMA. So eventually all the GSM networks will be using CDMA. If fact, if your GSM phone has HSDPA, you're already using CDMA for data.