What To Expect In KDE 4.1 288
andrewmin writes "Recently, Gnome's been gaining a lot of ground on its KDE counterpart in the desktop environment wars. The KDE developers were hoping to change this with KDE 4, the new radical release of KDE, but it was not to be. KDE 4.0 was buggy and unstable, leaving everyone except the hard-core KDE lovers. Mainly, this was because it just didn't work most of the time. However, the developers were not without hope. They promised that KDE 4.1 would be more stable and fix all the holes and problems with KDE 4.0. That time is coming soon: in just four days, K Desktop Environment 4.1 will be released to the Linux masses." A release candidate for 4.1 came out just over a week ago, with binaries available "for some Linux distributions, and Mac OS X and Windows."
NVidia issues? (Score:2, Interesting)
I've been hearing issues about the performance of KDE 4.1 being rather terrible due to nVidia's hopeless support of XRender.
I've run it myself, and I did notice that as soon as you got a few applications running you could visibly see the widgets and windows redrawing themselves, making it a very painful experience. GNOME, on the other hand, remains snappy (though I love KDE 4.1, even just because the picture frame allows pin-ups on my desktop!).
Is this just subjective? Are there any fixes?
For reference, the card I'm using is a 7800GT, and the driver version 177.13 on x86.
What is in it for me ( a user ) (Score:3, Interesting)
No, I'm serious. Other then some questionable eye candy, what can i as a user get out of 4.1 that would make me want to switch from 3.5.x?
I dont have time to be a developer, so all the 'under the hood coder stuff' isn't directly important to me.
Dont get me wrong, ive always preferred kde, but after 4.0 giving me nothing but grief i need good reasons to switch again.
Re:TFS is a lie? (Score:4, Interesting)
KDE 4 has been very underwhelming (Score:5, Interesting)
I have used KDE for almost 10 years now. Tried Gnome many times, but always go back to KDE. In looks there is no comparison, gnome is and always has been plug ugly.
Until KDE 4, KDE was superior in functionality as well. However, KDE4 suffered from multiple problems :
1. It was never meant for everyday users. For instance, a lot of indispensible KDE applets/widgets never made it on release date and some of the simplest tasks (plugging in a USB key) became needlessly complicated. It became good at obfuscating the essential and hyping the beautiful. It should never have been released - or perhaps released as KDE4-CODE which targeted developers alone. I understand that the open source development process depends on people trying out new software and reporting bugs, but this was too big a leap.
2. The developers paid too much attention to the looks of the interface and not much to the interface itself. I have used windows 95/98/NT/2000/XP over the years as well OSX in its many reincarnations, but KDE was always a relief to return to. With KDE4, that is no longer true.
I am not dissing the ideas behind KDE4. Perhaps many of them are overdue improvements if linux is to make it to the average desktop user (an outcome in which I haven't the slightest interest), but it was released too early. It gave an impression of being pre-alphaware and has ruined many people's opinion of the project.
Hopefully 4.1 will win people like me over and give us a compelling reason to upgrade from KDE 3.5.7.
Linux Haters Blog (Score:1, Interesting)
http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/
Slashdot is completely useless for KDE news. LHB is the place everyone is going to now to keep up on the latest open source/Linux news and developments.
Slashdot Effect Channeled (Score:5, Interesting)
QT 4 and thusly KDE 4 use XRender quite a bit, and Nvidia's driver has horrible XRender support. You could go to the OSS Nvidia driver, and lose 3D acceleration, or stick with KDE 3.
Ideally, I'd like to see the Slashdot effect channeled. This site has tons of users. We bring down sites accidentally with our massive numbers, but I've never seen the Slashdot Effect channeled for good.
Can you imagine CmdTaco posting a story tomorrow asking every to pepper Nvidia with petitions all on the same day, demanding an improved driver?
Re:What is in it for me ( a user ) (Score:2, Interesting)
For what is worth, is it possible to format an SD or USB thumb drive in any way using the GUI?? I could not find how to do such a thing in Ubuntu (Gnome), Fedora or KDE, the last time I tried (about a month ago), so I had to reboot to windows to do it with a simple right-click format.
Re:first post (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Calling Capt. Logic (Score:3, Interesting)
Anybody that has used KDE for a while isn't likely to switch. Going from KDE to Gnome feels almost a foreign as going from KDE to Windows.
Better, but Core System Apps not there yet (Score:3, Interesting)
I've used KDE 4.1 RC1, but its just not there yet. First, it's still not as stable or bug-free as KDE 3.5. This is partially due to packaging (since Ubuntu hasn't quite figured out all the dependencies yet) and partially due to the code itself. An even bigger problem, however, is the lack of core system applications that just aren't there yet. For example, KPowerSave and KNetworkManager are essentially requirements for any laptop. Neither of these is present nor, for example, does 4.1 let me suspend the system. The backend (Solid) for a lot of these things is present, but now someone has to write the front end that someone can actually control.
And, as others have commented, amarok, digikam, and koffice aren't ready yet either. I think it's going to take until at least 4.2 or 4.3 for it to be really usable and 4.5 until its actually fully polished.
Developers vs. Marketers (Score:3, Interesting)
And how much of that loss was due to any technical deficits in KDE? How many places to the right of the decimal point will you need for your answer?
Bottom line: GNOME has better marketing. It started with the "we don't use the eeeeeevil proprietary QT library" thing and hasn't let up. SuSE switched to GNOME after Novell bought SuSE, for instance, and Miguel de Icaza took over. Nothing that KDE can do about that.
For those who don't like the GNOME environment (count me in, but that's taste) this isn't going to change. GNOME has won the marketing war, and due to its total lock on default distro desktops it's impossible to avoid installing GNOME libraries -- but all too easy to skip installing KDE libraries. Which means that developers can count on having the GNOME libraries present, and can't count on the KDE enviroment. Which means that they're going to develop for GNOME, not KDE.
It's not quite over yet, but it's getting there. I'm seeing a fair number of complaints about Amarok requiring KDE libs; some traffic asking when a native GNOME version will be available. KDE 4.x may or may not achieve technical maturity, but right now I'm pretty sure that there won't be a 5.x series.
Re:first post (Score:2, Interesting)
Agreed.
KDE 4.0 is a horribly mangled release, and KDE 4.1 can only do so much better...
But KDE4 is the foundation for probably "the best" DE. (as long as you have the ressources to run it ;P)
I wonder how many people remember the inital KDE3 releases? Remember KDE3 only got "good" and then barely after 3.5. If you never take risks you'll be like Gnome, same non-existant architechture, no real initiative, with the sole goal of making sure your platform is stable and usable. That's not KDE. KDE is release now, release tomorrow, and never stop hacking even if the sun goes down and the cows come home.
Re:TFS is a lie? (Score:2, Interesting)
See, the biggest problem I see is the website(s) didn't know what was going on. Everyone who paid attention to the details and follow these kinds of things knew this. But then you have people who see "released" and look at the shiny screenshots and download it thinking it's the next best thing.
KDE needs a marketing team. I'm talking about someone who can think on the same level as Joe Public. People that can get shiny pages like plasma.kde.org up-to-date.
Nonetheless, having used KDE 4.0 off and on and now the RC for 4.1, there is a huge amount of potential here and I can't wait to see where they go with this.
Re:KDE 4.1 (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, would you rather they wait for now to release 4.0?
Well, yes. Even this might qualify as 3.95 or somesuch.
In the gaming industry, and with Microsoft, people often release a dot-oh package which requires extensive patching later on to bring it up to a reasonable standard. The rest of the software world, particularly open source, is usually more reliable -- Wine released 1.0 after 15 years of development, and Google keeps things in Beta indefinitely.
If you think the confusion is something Slashdot manufactured, think again -- I've got a reasonably tech-savvy friend using Kubuntu, and he saw various kde4 packages start to pop up in the repositories. He figured, 4.0 is higher than 3.5, and it was a stable release, so it must be an upgrade.
He uninstalled it right away, and now he hates kde4. Given time, that hate might well extend to KDE as a whole.
KDE had no credible reason for releasing it as 4.0, and every reason for releasing it as something else, like 3.9, or 4.0 Alpha. They've instead chosen a release pattern very similar to Vista -- first release is unusable, and even after a service pack, it's still not going to be an upgrade to the old version (XP or KDE3).
But KDE3 is old tech and it's starting to show its age IMHO.
Yes, which is why I'm seriously considering using GNOME, or going back to FluxBox or raw Beryl (without a DE). I'm stuck between something which really is showing its age (why, exactly, doesn't pagedown in KPDF flip an entire page? Why does it, instead, flip like 98% of a page? And why can't I fill out a PDF form?)...
Stuck between that and a downgrade. (Where's Katapult? Where's Kmail/Kontact? Where's Amarok? Why is Konsole huge? Why's everything huge, including the panel, with no way to reduce it? Why is the menu so weird -- and if this is a replacement for Katapult, why can't I open it with a keystroke?)
And worse, both still have major apps like Konqueror, Kopete, and Amarok simply crash, and frequently.
Re:NVidia issues? (Score:1, Interesting)
I'm not the parent poster but I upgraded my old X800XL to a 8800GT a few months ago. Based on what everyone was saying about ATI and NVidia, I expected a good experience... and I was utterly disappointed. The Linux drivers are painfully slow. I'll live with it for now because I can't justify changing my card again (I don't use Linux enough for that), but I certainly regret switching to NVidia.
Re:KDE 4.1 (Score:5, Interesting)
I typically enjoy reading your comments and I'm not trying to start a flamewar here, but I've just seen so much piss poured on KDE4 here on Slashdot that I've got to reply to someone or I'll blow my damn stack. So bear that in mind, because I'm gonna go off a little here. Nothing personal.
KDE had no credible reason for releasing it as 4.0
The KDE development team elaborated very well their reasons for releasing 4.0.0 on the schedule and in the manner that they did. This topic has been covered at least 5409 times in the last two weeks on Slashdot. Can we please move on now?
Where's Katapult? Where's Kmail/Kontact? Where's Amarok? Why is Konsole huge? Why's everything huge, including the panel, with no way to reduce it? Why is the menu so weird -- and if this is a replacement for Katapult, why can't I open it with a keystroke?
In order:
Katapult's not there anymore.
Kontact is there. I have it open on another desktop right now.
Amarok is also in the middle of a development cycle. The development version is there, the stable version hasn't magically disappeared either. It's not easy to rewrite an application to not only a new version of the DE, but a new version of the underlying frameworks and a new version of the widget set. It's hard hard hard hard work. You could help. Or at least shut up and let them work.
Konsole looks pretty much the same to me as it always has. Yakuake, btw, has improved dramatically.
You can change the panel size, this functionality has been there now for months.
If you don't like the new menu, use the old one. It's still there.
The new menu is not a replacement for Katapult. Alt-F2 is the replacement for Katapult. Which is good. Katapult had more bugs than a badger's asshole.
major apps like Konqueror, Kopete, and Amarok simply crash, and frequently.
I don't use Konqueror, so I can't speak to that. I have had Kopete open on this machine for weeks on end, it has not once crashed out on me. Not once. The development version of Amarok is just that, a development version. Expect it to crash. On the flip side, Kontact puked all over the place on a daily basis for me on KDE 3.5, and it's much more stable now. The crashes I do get regularly are KTorrent (when exiting the program, and also when trying to remove >3 torrents from the list), and sometimes Plasma when I log out. Bugs have been filed. I have no doubt that they will be fixed. Have you filed bugs on your crashes?
Listen, I'm not trying to get bitchy here, but seriously, can we all tone down the vitriol here? Considering that KDE4 is a complete break on all levels from KDE3 (both in the sense of "a break from the paradigm" and "compatibility break"), I'm thrilled with how quickly problems have been spotted and fixed (sometimes to the point where the problem I noticed in the morning has been fixed by dusk).
Re:first post (Score:5, Interesting)
Oddly (apparently), I found KDE 4.0.x to be quite stable. For me, its problem was that there wasn't anything implemented other than some "shiny bubble icon" eye-candy. It's not really "polish" that KDE4 needs - it's had THAT from the start. It's actual functionality that it has really been needing.
I've been using the current SVN builds for the 4.1 series, and it's looking much better in terms of actual functionality than the 4.0 series was. There are still a few irritating missing bits (like metadata display [duration/bitrate/etc. for mp3 and ogg-vorbis files, for example] and a fully working version of K3B for KDE4, etc.) but from my perspective they've done a very credible job of addressing many of the major shortcomings from the original KDE4(.0) releases.
I think the whole "plasmoids" thing that they've been frantically laying the groundwork for will probably make dealing with the remaining missing functionality pretty quick.
then dont release it as "KDE"4.0... (Score:4, Interesting)
you make a lot of good points but you show the same lack of intelligence that the devs displayed. It doesn't matter what your/their "rationale" or "explanation" is. Those are excuses. nothing more nothing less. I'm a huge kde fan dont get me wrong... but that's very amature and a good way to piss off your user base and new comers.
If its not a stable usable release which is a functional upgrade from your prior version then DONT put it in STABLE REPO's, dont release it out as a 'finished' product.
KDE is an open source project. Any sense of a timeline for a release is a purely abstract thing. The only 'project deadline' was self imposed. There are no money paying customers who are going to complain that your product is late.
Furthermore as ubuntu demonstrates time and time again the fact that something is a RC or alpha/beta doesnt mean people wont use it and submit patches; it means those who have NO ABILITY TO USE IT OR SUBMIT PATCHES won't use it.
It doesnt matter how much of a complete break on all levels it is, if anything thats just even more of a reason of how obvious it should be that you need to do more testing.
Do you think a consumer cares if version 2.x is written entirely different than 1.x; they dont care if its compiled in different languages, written backwards, upside down on typewriters by monkeys and midgets. They care about one thing only, that it works BETTER; and that if it is not complete and ready for stable use that it wont be presented in anyway to allow them to believe as such.
They take a lot of effort to say that "4.0" is not ready and not a full desktop and not for real use... then don't release it and allow it to run around as a real release.
A lot of people are starting to nail this, clearly a release of some sort was needed; but not as KDE . expecting your user to be "know" that .0 means crap is stupidity. It's also something that most companies are trying to get away from... because in the money world if every one DID listen to that no one would buy version .0 and you'd never make enough to money to produce whatever comes next or you'd screw up your reputation so bad no one would come back.
so what if vista was a failure in that same regard; don't you think that's at least a part of the reason of the surge in linux's popularity, or microsofts reputatation of that in general? maybe if more projects put a little bit more emphasis on QC before releasing as a stable it would go a long way towards converting the masses; oh well..
Re:TFS is a lie? (Score:1, Interesting)
Please see The Linux Hater's [blogspot.com] response to your argument.
Re:first post (Score:2, Interesting)
It's actual functionality that it has really been needing. [...] they've done a very credible job of addressing many of the major shortcomings from the original KDE4(.0) releases.
It is one thing to call a set of libraries a "4.0 release", and another thing altogether calling a Desktop the same thing. Why anyone would label a major and respected Desktop environment as a technology preview and at the same time slap the 4.0 tag on it is beyond me...
The decision to go with 4.0 rather than 4.0 beta 5 was a mistake, in my opinion. Have a look at the release announcement [kde.org] and tell me where it does not describe KDE 4.0 as the immediate successor to KDE 3.5.x? Despite the obvious PR blunder, all this nonsense could have been easily avoided by continuing with the beta series until a product had been ready (rather than a technology). I personally fault KDE for the negative perception that followed their last release.