US Warns Olympic Visitors of Chinese Cyber-Spying 231
An anonymous reader writes to tell us the US Government has issued a strong warning to travelers headed to the Beijing Olympics (PDF) with respect to electronic data. Part FUD, part awareness, the CBS article reads like 1984, urging travelers to treat all electronic devices (from fax to cellphone and back) as compromised, and proceeds to talk about China's aggressive cyber-espionage programs. "China is one of a number of countries pushing active cyber-espionage programs aimed primarily at cracking U.S. national security computers and stealing corporate trade secrets. Billions have already been lost. In addition, cyber-gangs and criminals, many based in Asia, have stolen bank accounts and credit card numbers from an untold number of Americans."
Of Course (Score:1, Insightful)
Well of course they're being spied on. They're in Red China. I think a "duh" is in order here.
In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
This would be fine if it warned US citizens about the US government's invasive Internet and telecomm spying. What we have here is a severe case of the pot calling the kettle black.
However, in the case of the US government, said spying is in direct violation of the documents that give the government authority to operate (in particular, the 4th amendment); I'm not at all sure that anything similar can be said of China, which has an entirely different form of government. Consequently, I suspect the US deserves considerably less respect than China does with regard to these activities.
Pretty shameless. (Score:5, Insightful)
China is just trying to catch up with the US in business esionage. They have a long way to go yet but thanks to all the greed in the US most of the technology and pretty much all thats worth to know is already outsourced to China.
U.S does it even better (Score:3, Insightful)
And U.S has not stealed national securities from other countries? HAH... Even Sweden has big and great spy-network now coming but it is small when comparing to U.S spy network....
Nothing surprising here.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Untill your own computer is seized. (Score:5, Insightful)
Until it's confiscated at the US border.
US Border security (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, lets not mention the confiscating of portable computer at US borders as a possible spying risk.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:4, Insightful)
reads like 1984
In what way? Nothing mentioned in the article is beyond modern technology to do.
Consequently, I suspect the US deserves considerably less respect than China does with regard to these activities.
Wait a second... we should give china respect for invading people's privacy and for all the other things they do in violation of human rights, simply because we "expect" it from them?
Talk about your bigotry of low expectations, yeesh.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not so much about spying as what you do with the information. I can promote Islam or Communism right here on slashdot and, although NSA can probably hack into my account and get the contact info, I am not likely to be tortured and imprisoned. Neither are my comments blocked from the general public. On the other hand, discussing Falun Gong or Tibet independence from an olympic Internet cafe is likely to cause unpleasant consequences.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe, I'm not worried, because I do not, as a matter of principle, steal other people's intellectual property (I assume, "TPB" means "The Pirate Bay")? Possible, possible... Wake me up, when you have evidence of America's "illegal wiretapping" benefiting the hated *AAs, though.
Call me old-fashioned, but China's getting other people's intellectual property (such as mine or my employer's) would bother me — even if the Chinese could not put that info to good use. They may also do real bodily harm to some Chinese, who may have approached me (the foreigner), and whom I foolishly named in my fax transmission.
Your attempt to equate the two countries (reflected even in your choice of "Subject") is wrong — pathetically so. With what did the Chinese government buy you? With unfettered access to TPB? If that's really all you need, you may wish to move across the Pacific...
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh, China could do anything they want to you if you're in China.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
In pot's defense, I may add, the thought of Chinese spying on my communications worries me far more.
Then you're not paying attention.
China has never kidnapped someone from another country, IN another country, and then sent them off to be tortured in a THIRD country in a secret CIA prison.
All because they heard some chatter that they decided was "terrorist" talk.
The US, on the other hand, has an official policy that if someone can not legally be extradited so the US can torture them, the US will send in the "extraordinary rendition" teams and take them off to secret torture prison on their own.
At least China sticks within their own borders.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? China only cares if you're trying to free tibet or mongolia, or possibly have discovered a super giant oilfield under beijing.
The feds however will be very interested in why you were in China and the reasons you are now returning to the US, where you're staying, how much tax you pay, how you voted last time, how much weed you smoked at high school and who you bought it off.
Ch-Ch-Check your priorities...
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:1, Insightful)
Your logic is badly flawed and your facts are incorrect. The crimes against humanity past and present committed by the Chinese Communist Party and the People's Republic of China dwarf those of any other government in the world today. The number of people who died in their Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution are estimated to be well over 100 million. That's far more than Hitler ever managed.
Yes we have our constitution, but the PRC also has laws to protect the rights of its citizens. It's just that few in power there take them seriously. The laws that are inconvenient to the government are simply ignored. They don't have an independent judiciary to stop them either. So somehow that makes it better? In the U.S. despite the lapses, things eventually get righted because we do have a rule of law and enough people in the government and in the judiciary to eventually rein in the zealots and nutcases.
Maybe you should move there and try your hand at coping the same attitude toward the PRC and the Party and see where that gets you.
Re:U.S does it even better (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1382116/China-finds-spy-bugs-in-Jiang's-Boeing-jet.html [telegraph.co.uk]
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9807E6DD113BF936A25757C0A9659C8B63 [nytimes.com]
So, this announcement has been brought to you by the words 'pot', 'kettle' and 'black'.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Since i can't mod you as 'overrated' or 'pandering for karma', i'll post.
The pot and kettle are both black. So what of it? Does that make the pot's claim of the kettle's blackness any less true? You give the US less respect because the *current* gov't has been spying illegally than the Chinese who do so as matter of POLICY? At least in the US, if the gov't gets caught doing that there's SOME kind of recourse. We spy on them to find out what the threats might be. They do the same but also spy just to steal technology. They're notorious for reverse engineering (see Chinese MiGs).
Gov'ts spy on each other, that's a given. We spy on everyone and everyone spies on us, even our allies. The intel community has a saying, "there are friendly gov'ts, but there are no friendly intelligence agencies".
When Obama takes office, much of W's shenanigans will end, but you can't say that of China. Setting aside the Chinese gov't, the amount cyber crime originating in of China is staggering. Even if you only count copyright violation, it's a big deal. Here's a test for you: go do a few google searches on Tibet, Tienanmen Square, Hong Kong and Taiwan from your computer in any western nation. Then try the same thing in China. IF you manage to find anything, chances are it will be monitored and under control of the gov't. Then do searches on the net here for anything seditious you can think of. You'll find gigs and gigs of material criticizing the our gov't and no one will give a shit that you looked at it.
Then there's the matter of egomania that people think our gov't is spying on THEM personally. Who are you and what are you up to that you think the elephant gives a shit about the ant you are? Do you really think there's a GS-10 employee who cares that you rented Fahrenheit 9/11? Chances are he watched it too. And while we're at it... it rains because of condensation, not because God is crying because you touched yourself.
Pure FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
"All information you send electronically - by fax machine, personal digital assistant (PDA), computer or telephone - can be intercepted."
This should always be assumed, wherever you may be.
Visiting an authoritarian government doesn't change that.
Prepare your device (to be lost upon return?) (Score:2, Insightful)
Encrypt all sensitive information on the device.
(But be warned: In some countries, customs
officials may not permit you to enter with
encrypted information.)
Countries like the United States of America?
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:2, Insightful)
And my fax, or blackberry-relayed e-mail may say something about this...
Or under Darfur...
This may be overused, but, really, I have nothing to hide from them on any of the topics you listed... It is, of course, mildly unsettling, that they may learn these things about me without a good reason, but compared to the lives of Tibetians or Darfuris, that unease is nothing. Heck, it is insignificant even compared to the economic losses, which my country may sustain, if China's industrial espionage is successful...
Re:Good encryption (Score:4, Insightful)
They would not do that to visiting foreigners. Not en-masse, and not for the purposes of economic espionage. Thus encryption would've been effective protecting 99% of communications.
Although waterboarding is certainly legal in China, over there they have a number of other methods too — and most of them usually leave long-term (sometimes permanent) disfigurement to the body, unlike waterboarding.
Pot, meet Kettle (Score:4, Insightful)
Glad this entire thread seems to realize the delicious irony here.
Oh, and since you're reading this thread, you've been added to the TSA's "random political dissident checklist." Have a nice day.
"Let us be thankful we have an occupation to fill. Work hard, increase production, prevent accidents and be happy. Let us be thankful we have commerce. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy. And be happy."
Remind me again... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
China has never kidnapped someone from another country, IN another country, and then sent them off to be tortured in a THIRD country in a secret CIA prison
Correct - China routinely kidnapps people from other countries and tortures them in Chinese prisons. This more direct approach saves the skulking about with intelligence agencies.
At least China sticks within their own borders.
No, not really, they just turotue or kill any citizen who complains about it, so you don't see much dissent online. I'm sure Tibet, for example, has an opinion about China remaining within its own borders, but you won't hear that opinion expressed within China very often, thanks to the whole prison and torture thing.
But go ahead an continue to equate the US and China, as it will warn others of the value of your opinions.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't worry, having lived in Asia for a couple of years rest assured that the same exact thing is happening there although America and Europe maybe be a bit further along.
And don't be deluded by the idea that they're somehow more morally upstanding. They really are no different in that regard.
The difference is that they still by and large have respect for the system. By system I mean the government, society in general, social rules and that sort of thing.
For example, if a sign is posted on the subway that reads "no food allowed" almost everyone follows it without question, hence clean trains.
In the US, on the other hand, people ignore the sign, at best, and at worst are indignant about not being able to do as they please.
Americans are more obsessed about doing what they want, when they want and expecting everyone else to accept that. Whereas in Asia there's more of a tendency to want to maintain social order. There certainly is far more respect for authority in Asia. And they're far less indignant and bitter about their work, even though they probably work harder and longer than many Americans. And they're certainly a lot more nationalistic.
Many of the foreigners I knew out there admired that. But there were many others who just couldn't deal with it.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
Heck, it is insignificant even compared to the economic losses, which my country may sustain, if China's industrial espionage is successful
What commercial knowledge do you imagine the Chinese would want to steal from the US? 98% of everything you consume is made in China or its close neighbours. The US (and in fact the whole of the "west") trumps China only in the service sector, where China doesn't want to, and geographically can't, compete. The US long ago shipped all it's industrial secrets willingly to China, relinquishing them eagerly in the pursuit of Mammon.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html [cia.gov]
Compare the first and last on that list and bear in mind that they are each other's largest trading partners... (coincidence it maybe, but if you add together 1,2 and 4 (I'm guessing germany is not a huge trading partner) it almost balances out the US's deficit: perhaps a good indication of where the money went)
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Americans are more obsessed about doing what they want, when they want and expecting everyone else to accept that. Whereas in Asia there's more of a tendency to want to maintain social order./quote> To me, that's pretty promising on the U.S. side. As long as we continue to question and push the rules imposed on us, we can't be completely dominated.
Re:Security Olympics Olympian Feats? (Score:2, Insightful)
Why then, doesn't the US just send to the Beijing Olympics people with clear backgrounds, but are agents, carrying honey-pot and honey-net laptops. They could set EMP-type or other types of micro-bursts so that when the laptops are disassembled, they beacon home. But, I suppose that unless US/US allies satellites are overhead at the right time, they won't know if the laptop is compromised...
No, check that. If the laptop is compromised, it doesn't squawk, YET. I squawks AFTER the carrying agent and they GPS/gyro-fitted laptop are released. But, I don't know if there is a micro-gyro that can be embedded in a laptop and not be detected. And, even if so, the Chinese can just put it in a cushioned bag, toss it in a clothes dryer on air dry, and cycle it about 25 minutes. That gyrating gyro will be needing a serious resetting-- especially if the dryer is in a pressure chamber on skids simulating lateral changes in direction. Even if that laptop has a solid-state chip for recording motions, it might run out of room and over-write itself... well, unless that has been provided for...
But, even better, for foreign governments, they can just find the encryption, charge the agent, and "out" him/her, or arrest him/her.
But, what I suspect will have happened or WILL happen is something I think may have been going on in the DC area for decades.... all those restaurants and bars probably have highly-trained servers who carefully retrieve all the dinnerware for DNA and finger print collection and collation with surveillance camera footage so that any and every time a foreign person of interests crosses into or out of the borders, their assigned ID always follows any aliases they use anywhere in the world, provided they are flagged by collaborating nations. So, all those people not wearing gloves or fake skins or fake lips (and being careful to not backwash) still will leave hair, follicles, skin, and such in their bedding, flooring, and in the air.
If you're paranoid, book a room in advance, then at the last minute, change rooms, or even change hotels. Or, take the room, then go to the concierge and pay under the table to get a 2nd room not logged into the reservations system, and pay extra to keep both rooms...
Very different values... (Score:5, Insightful)
Shortly after the recent earthquake in China my wife told me about an interesting news report. I'd post a link, but the report is in Chinese and I don't have a link to the story anyway.
Apparently there was this girl who was pissed that she couldn't get a stable internet connection so that she could play some online game. And more than that, she was resentful about the attention the earthquake victims were getting. So she posted a Youtube video about it.
So her ranting drew the government's attention and they actually arrested her for illegal speech. I don't know how long she was in jail, but I think she was eventually released.
Here's the interesting thing: many Americans would shit themselves if someone were arrested for exercising their freedom of speech, regardless of what's been said, or at least, as I've been discovering, as long as it conforms to their worldview.
On the other hand, Chinese think very differently. Even my wife, and her friends, who are Taiwanese, not even Chinese, agree with the actions taken by the government. And these are people living in the US. They agree with the right to free speech and to be able to be critical of the government. But they believe that there's a line people shouldn't cross. My wife finds it troubling that a person in the US can say anything and everything even if it's socially disruptive.
I think it comes down to a sense of respect for society and the system and this desire to maintain social order. I'm sure some find this to be a very troubling concept. And it's pervasive to one extent or another throughout east Asia. This is how China can be so open about their activities, because many people support it.
I don't agree with this at all, particularly because of the massive potential for abuse. And attitudes certainly are changing out there. But compared to Americans, Asians are still more respectful and a lot more nationalistic. Case in point is how many Americans seem eager to crap on their own country and despite the freedoms they enjoy seem to enjoy imagining they live in some sort of police state. There's a lot wrong with the US, but come on, give me a break.
Too many people seem to be more upset about how the police handles a suspect than they are about high crime rates. It was great when I was living in Taiwan and could be out at 2am without having to be concerned for my well-being. I can't say the same in many parts of the US. I feel like too many people in this country have their priorities backwards.
Most of the attack I see comes from the US I.P. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as we continue to question and push the rules imposed on us, we can't be completely dominated
lol! You don't need to be in America long to see the fallacy in that statement. You only question the the little rules: "Don't eat on the subway", not the big ones: "You may only vote Democrat or Republican", "You must pledge allegiance to this cloth", "Capitalism is good for you; don't ask why"
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:2, Insightful)
"You may only vote Democrat or Republican"
False. You can vote with any party you want, it just won't make a lick of difference.
"You must pledge allegiance to this cloth"
There is no law requiring you to pledge your allegiance to the flag, though there is a considerable amount of pressure to do so.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
What I don't get is why everyone is so afraid of this globalization. The global economy has benefitted from the US-China economic trade. And god forbid if anyone knew our "secrets!" Come on. The fact is if these things are widely known, then the knowledge is less likely to be lost forever if one country falls.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean sue the US gov't?
That might work, unless someone calls in the State Secrets Privilege [wikipedia.org], and then your case just disappears.
Re:Very different values... (Score:3, Insightful)
Too many people seem to be more upset about how the police handles a suspect than they are about high crime rates. It was great when I was living in Taiwan and could be out at 2am without having to be concerned for my well-being. I can't say the same in many parts of the US.
You've been tricked by the sensationalist Western media. Crime rates are LOWER here than they were in Taiwan (probably, everybody lies about it). Note your terminology: you're "concerned". Nothing has actually happened, but you're concerned anyway because the media has told you to be.
And brutal policing doesn't decrease crime, it INCREASES it. Brutalized offenders have much higher recidivism rates.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:3, Insightful)
"When Obama takes office, much of W's shenanigans will end,"
I may be cynical, but I find that statement INCREDIBLY naive.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually... no. Never been there! Never even seen someone playing the game, come to think of it. Too many other time-using things in life, it seems.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:1, Insightful)
What about between their server and the device (in China)? Is that leg just as encrypted -- is the communication end-to-end, or is it sent clear-text over GSM, for the purposes of expediency?
It is end-to-end AES encryption, never sent in cleartext. The email is encrypted by the blackberry enterprise server [wikipedia.org] in my company's data center, then it is sent to RIM [wikipedia.org], then it is sent to the wireless carrier, then it is sent to the device.
Only the device and the blackberry enterprise server have the keys, no one else has them.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:3, Insightful)
It's really very simple. Currently the US is Top Nation. China is bigger and has more resources, and will inevitably overtake the US and demote it to Second Nation. The US doesn't like that.
It's nothing to do with China as such -- Americans would react the same way if it was Canada that was threatening to become the new superpower, or if the Europeans got their act together and started competing with the world instead of each other.