US Warns Olympic Visitors of Chinese Cyber-Spying 231
An anonymous reader writes to tell us the US Government has issued a strong warning to travelers headed to the Beijing Olympics (PDF) with respect to electronic data. Part FUD, part awareness, the CBS article reads like 1984, urging travelers to treat all electronic devices (from fax to cellphone and back) as compromised, and proceeds to talk about China's aggressive cyber-espionage programs. "China is one of a number of countries pushing active cyber-espionage programs aimed primarily at cracking U.S. national security computers and stealing corporate trade secrets. Billions have already been lost. In addition, cyber-gangs and criminals, many based in Asia, have stolen bank accounts and credit card numbers from an untold number of Americans."
Ah...just like home! (Score:2)
Government spies on the people for governmental reasons. That's all you need to know citizen!
Cyber spying?!? China? (Score:4, Funny)
Anyway, wouldn't spotting these cyborg spies be easy? Do they have any cool gadgets; like a hand that turns into a gun or something?
And I demand to know what the Pentagon is doing to close this gap with cyborg spies!? What's America doing about it? We must have our own cyborg spy program!
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Where did they get the cybernetic technology from?!? Japan?
Anyway, wouldn't spotting these cyborg spies be easy? Do they have any cool gadgets; like a hand that turns into a gun or something?
Well, they got the technology from Japan, but they modified it themselves. So they'll be a lot harder to spot, because the Chinese models aren't all hundred meter tall robots.
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So they'll be a lot harder to spot, because the Chinese models aren't all hundred meter tall robots.
actually, i'd pay to see one of those japanese spies try to hide. my best guess is that it involves a gigantic cardboard box with eyeholes cut out of it.
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Huh?
It's just a box.
Pretty shameless. (Score:5, Insightful)
China is just trying to catch up with the US in business esionage. They have a long way to go yet but thanks to all the greed in the US most of the technology and pretty much all thats worth to know is already outsourced to China.
U.S does it even better (Score:3, Insightful)
And U.S has not stealed national securities from other countries? HAH... Even Sweden has big and great spy-network now coming but it is small when comparing to U.S spy network....
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And U.S has not stealed national securities from other countries?
Before you all jump on this guy for grammar violations, please realize that he is simply an early adopter of Newspeak [wikipedia.org], the origin of which is related to this discussion.
On another note, everybody seems to overestimate the Chinese: how are they going to see anything important with those squinty little eyes of theirs?
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1382116/China-finds-spy-bugs-in-Jiang's-Boeing-jet.html [telegraph.co.uk]
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9807E6DD113BF936A25757C0A9659C8B63 [nytimes.com]
So, this announcement has been brought to you by the words 'pot', 'kettle' and 'black'.
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Often you don't need anything so active. Some British, ah, unofficial government representatives found they were getting a lot more attention than they'd hoped for on a trip to Moscow a couple of years ago. It turned out that they'd turned off their mobile phones before going into their place of employment and then left them off until they landed in Moscow. When they turned them on, they immediately informed the local tower of the cell ID of their last connection, which told the Russian authorities exact
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Really? Please give me some examples of our superiority in this regard. I'm always interested in furthering my education on the evils perpetuated by my country.
Nothing surprising here.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Nothing surprising here.. (Score:5, Funny)
For decades, the Chinese have been probably the greatest competition the US has had as far as spying goes. Not only for military secrets, but, also commercial secrets.
I hate the "Fixed that for you" meme, but this time I couldn't resist.
Untill your own computer is seized. (Score:5, Insightful)
Until it's confiscated at the US border.
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I don't think China fingerprinted USA citizens while getting inside border just because "they are American" right? Imagine the media if they dared to do such thing.
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Ten years ago the the American in China would have had a 'Shadow' following his every step, that has all but disappeared as well.
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What makes you think your computer can't be seized at any time or any reason within China?
Re:Untill your own computer is seized. (Score:5, Interesting)
Yep. After I got pulled aside at the Canadian border and given the third degree and finally let through after four hours, I was told by friends NEVER to tell the Canadian border guards you are a software engineer. That is a sure way to get pulled aside for further questioning. They don't want illegal foreign coders taking Canadian jobs or something.
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In Canada, the title "Engineer" has a very specific and legally binding definition. There are no software engineers in Canada.
It would be like claiming that you are a "Martian Lawyer" when you are really not a lawyer at all.
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CBS (Score:5, Funny)
the CBS article reads like 1984, urging travelers to treat all electronic devices (from fax to cellphone and back) as compromised and then proceeding to talk about China's aggressive cyber-espionage programs.
This from the television network whose logo is a giant eye looking back at you.
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This from the television network whose logo is a giant eye looking back at you.
And judging. Always watching, always judging.
Good encryption (Score:2)
This is where having a strong end-to-end encryption would've been really nice... Too bad, the "I have nothing to hide" mentality continues to prevail.
Re:Good encryption (Score:4, Insightful)
They would not do that to visiting foreigners. Not en-masse, and not for the purposes of economic espionage. Thus encryption would've been effective protecting 99% of communications.
Although waterboarding is certainly legal in China, over there they have a number of other methods too — and most of them usually leave long-term (sometimes permanent) disfigurement to the body, unlike waterboarding.
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Love ya too, Anonymous Coward.
No, it does not — not unless done really-really wrong — CIA agents undergo it as part of their training. Beaten-out teeth, on the other hand, are permanent. Same with broken hands — McCain's still don't function right, for example, decades after he suffered real torture in Vietnam.
How do you k
US Border security (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, lets not mention the confiscating of portable computer at US borders as a possible spying risk.
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I bet people reading your post will get the idea or suggest the idea so...
I seriously wonder something. Lets say you are one of those "my everything is online" guys or a VPN using clever corporate worker. So, while travelling to USA, you backup your local data, fire up a privacy tool (or built in disk util in OS X) and 35 pass erase your internal drive. Setup your Windows or OS X, install all updates and turn it off.
Will this be a major trouble for you in future? A good computer forensics expert can easily
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Will this be a major trouble for you in future? A good computer forensics expert can easily figure what you did
There is no law against carrying a freshly reimaged computer. You only need to be truthful if asked, and that applies to every answer you give at the border. You do not need to explain your reasons, though if needed such an explanation would be obvious and unimpeacheable: "I was concerned about security of my old business documents that I worked with over the years, they might be recoverable fro
billions? (Score:2)
Would this be measured in the same way as the 'millions' lost byt media companies?
Some days I wish I wasn't a cynic, but this smacks of manipulation to me.
Anyone who thinks the US government isn't trying just as hard to wrest secrets from China is kidding themselves. Nor is it new, you'd probably never find a period in history after the emergence of agriculture and the formation of communities/city states when this kind of stuff wasn't going on.
Personally I think most of this is down to a paranoid need to h
export laws (Score:2, Interesting)
I wonder if you can get into trouble for physically carrying encryption software across the US border like you can for "exporting" it by placing it on the internet.
Queue Admiral Ackbar,
It's a trap!
Chinese media warns about US Customs (Score:2)
I think it's a little hypocritical for the US to warn about cyber-spying by anyone else when TSA will confiscate anyone's laptop or PDA on a whim and not return it. Physician heal thyself.
Security Olympics (Score:2)
Re:Security Olympics Olympian Feats? (Score:2, Insightful)
Why then, doesn't the US just send to the Beijing Olympics people with clear backgrounds, but are agents, carrying honey-pot and honey-net laptops. They could set EMP-type or other types of micro-bursts so that when the laptops are disassembled, they beacon home. But, I suppose that unless US/US allies satellites are overhead at the right time, they won't know if the laptop is compromised...
No, check that. If the laptop is compromised, it doesn't squawk, YET. I squawks AFTER the carrying agent and they GPS/
Pure FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
"All information you send electronically - by fax machine, personal digital assistant (PDA), computer or telephone - can be intercepted."
This should always be assumed, wherever you may be.
Visiting an authoritarian government doesn't change that.
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This should always be assumed, wherever you may be. Visiting an authoritarian government doesn't change that.
Ah, so what they say is true, then? This must be some new definition of the term "FUD" of which I was previously unaware.
There's lots of the usual Slashdot bitching, kvetching, and sarcastic remarks, but I can't really see what's wrong with pointing out to tourists that their communications might be at risk when traveling in a foreign country. They advised me to get inoculated against hepatitis A and B before I traveled to Southeast Asia, yet people contract both diseases every day right here in the good ol
Prepare your device (to be lost upon return?) (Score:2, Insightful)
Encrypt all sensitive information on the device.
(But be warned: In some countries, customs
officials may not permit you to enter with
encrypted information.)
Countries like the United States of America?
Sounds to me... (Score:2)
I didn't bother to read the article. But still, sounds to me like China uses much more sofisticated methodes to spy on people entering the country than the US, which may just confiscate your electronic equipment upon entering if they feel like it... ;-)
Pot, meet Kettle (Score:4, Insightful)
Glad this entire thread seems to realize the delicious irony here.
Oh, and since you're reading this thread, you've been added to the TSA's "random political dissident checklist." Have a nice day.
"Let us be thankful we have an occupation to fill. Work hard, increase production, prevent accidents and be happy. Let us be thankful we have commerce. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy. And be happy."
DarkReading wrote about this - and more tips (Score:2)
We created a information security guide for visitors to China for the olympics [securitymusings.com] on behalf of one of our large customers.
If you take nothing else away from this, just be careful bringing your technology devices to China! The environment there is unsafe for most information technology.
We are hypocrites (Score:4, Interesting)
Um, how is that different from here? And why shouldn't we be worried about that happening here? It's not like China has some special properties to make our devices surrender themselves only on their property and only for them. I'm worried because the government knows about this but is not stopping it on our own soil or issuing any such warnings on our own soil. It's very devious.
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Just because someone (or some government) is guilty of hypocrisy doesn't mean their message should be dismissed out of hand.
If drive across the country in a 5MPG monster truck and pass out books (printed on non-recycled paper) criticizing our governments inaction on climate change, I might be a hypocrite, but my message might still be sound and worth considering. (However, being a hypocrite does make me lose all sense of being authority on the matter).
Remind me again... (Score:4, Insightful)
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When else do you see so many dedicated athletes performing at their best on such a massive scale?
And why do we need to see them performing at their best? And why do they need to do that? I personally have zero interest in sports, and probably negative interest in "spectator" sports where you just sit and watch someone running. Such observations don't help me, or anyone else, in any way. I can easily outperform the entire Olympics if I only learn how to plant a tree, and then go and do it on a hillside th
Very different values... (Score:5, Insightful)
Shortly after the recent earthquake in China my wife told me about an interesting news report. I'd post a link, but the report is in Chinese and I don't have a link to the story anyway.
Apparently there was this girl who was pissed that she couldn't get a stable internet connection so that she could play some online game. And more than that, she was resentful about the attention the earthquake victims were getting. So she posted a Youtube video about it.
So her ranting drew the government's attention and they actually arrested her for illegal speech. I don't know how long she was in jail, but I think she was eventually released.
Here's the interesting thing: many Americans would shit themselves if someone were arrested for exercising their freedom of speech, regardless of what's been said, or at least, as I've been discovering, as long as it conforms to their worldview.
On the other hand, Chinese think very differently. Even my wife, and her friends, who are Taiwanese, not even Chinese, agree with the actions taken by the government. And these are people living in the US. They agree with the right to free speech and to be able to be critical of the government. But they believe that there's a line people shouldn't cross. My wife finds it troubling that a person in the US can say anything and everything even if it's socially disruptive.
I think it comes down to a sense of respect for society and the system and this desire to maintain social order. I'm sure some find this to be a very troubling concept. And it's pervasive to one extent or another throughout east Asia. This is how China can be so open about their activities, because many people support it.
I don't agree with this at all, particularly because of the massive potential for abuse. And attitudes certainly are changing out there. But compared to Americans, Asians are still more respectful and a lot more nationalistic. Case in point is how many Americans seem eager to crap on their own country and despite the freedoms they enjoy seem to enjoy imagining they live in some sort of police state. There's a lot wrong with the US, but come on, give me a break.
Too many people seem to be more upset about how the police handles a suspect than they are about high crime rates. It was great when I was living in Taiwan and could be out at 2am without having to be concerned for my well-being. I can't say the same in many parts of the US. I feel like too many people in this country have their priorities backwards.
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Too many people seem to be more upset about how the police handles a suspect than they are about high crime rates. It was great when I was living in Taiwan and could be out at 2am without having to be concerned for my well-being. I can't say the same in many parts of the US.
You've been tricked by the sensationalist Western media. Crime rates are LOWER here than they were in Taiwan (probably, everybody lies about it). Note your terminology: you're "concerned". Nothing has actually happened, but you're concerned anyway because the media has told you to be.
And brutal policing doesn't decrease crime, it INCREASES it. Brutalized offenders have much higher recidivism rates.
"stealing corporate trade secrets" (Score:2)
Funny, I always thought that was what Echolon was for. Wasn't that even confirmed by the EU parlament?
China spying on the US? (Score:2)
See e.g. here: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1130/p01s01-usfp.html [csmonitor.com]
So ... yes ... China would be interested in any intelligence it can get its hands on. From innocuous material from open sources to more valuable material, likewise from open sources. But also the more clandestine stuff. From pure industrial espionage to scientific and military espionage. But then so would numerous other countries (see e.g. http://www.loyola.edu/d [loyola.edu]
Like they are the only ones .... (Score:2)
Oh, and this differs from the DHS claiming the right to confiscate all data in my personal possession when crossing the border how, exactly?
Not like how taped conversations between Airbus and its customers were "accidentally released" to Boeing to better their negotiations?
Oh yeah - one is a government, I forgot.
In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
This would be fine if it warned US citizens about the US government's invasive Internet and telecomm spying. What we have here is a severe case of the pot calling the kettle black.
However, in the case of the US government, said spying is in direct violation of the documents that give the government authority to operate (in particular, the 4th amendment); I'm not at all sure that anything similar can be said of China, which has an entirely different form of government. Consequently, I suspect the US deserves considerably less respect than China does with regard to these activities.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:4, Funny)
Ya. Both at the border to get into the US, and after you get in. At least the former you'll be aware of. The latter doesn't even get secret court oversight anymore.
And no one would use it to spy on Obama or cronie's competitor's secrets or anything. No sir, that'd be wrong. You have to trust us we're just looking for terrists.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:4, Interesting)
The "pot" here is not talking to the "kettle". It is talking to us — don't use fax or blackberry, if you don't want China to intercept the information.
In pot's defense, I may add, the thought of Chinese spying on my communications worries me far more.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Interesting)
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Maybe, I'm not worried, because I do not, as a matter of principle, steal other people's intellectual property (I assume, "TPB" means "The Pirate Bay")? Possible, possible... Wake me up, when you have evidence of America's "illegal wiretapping" benefiting the hated *AAs, though.
Call me old-fashioned, but China's getting other people's intellectual property (such as
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I know I've thought about it. They really seem to be a more morally upstanding culture, all in all. Our culture, on the other hand, is due for a collapse. Although, I'm kind of looking forward to that... I'm going to hang lawyers and accountants in trees for fun.
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They really seem to be a more morally upstanding culture...I'm going to hang lawyers and accountants in trees for fun
Wow. You moving there might actually make China worse.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't worry, having lived in Asia for a couple of years rest assured that the same exact thing is happening there although America and Europe maybe be a bit further along.
And don't be deluded by the idea that they're somehow more morally upstanding. They really are no different in that regard.
The difference is that they still by and large have respect for the system. By system I mean the government, society in general, social rules and that sort of thing.
For example, if a sign is posted on the subway that reads "no food allowed" almost everyone follows it without question, hence clean trains.
In the US, on the other hand, people ignore the sign, at best, and at worst are indignant about not being able to do as they please.
Americans are more obsessed about doing what they want, when they want and expecting everyone else to accept that. Whereas in Asia there's more of a tendency to want to maintain social order. There certainly is far more respect for authority in Asia. And they're far less indignant and bitter about their work, even though they probably work harder and longer than many Americans. And they're certainly a lot more nationalistic.
Many of the foreigners I knew out there admired that. But there were many others who just couldn't deal with it.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Americans are more obsessed about doing what they want, when they want and expecting everyone else to accept that. Whereas in Asia there's more of a tendency to want to maintain social order./quote> To me, that's pretty promising on the U.S. side. As long as we continue to question and push the rules imposed on us, we can't be completely dominated.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as we continue to question and push the rules imposed on us, we can't be completely dominated
lol! You don't need to be in America long to see the fallacy in that statement. You only question the the little rules: "Don't eat on the subway", not the big ones: "You may only vote Democrat or Republican", "You must pledge allegiance to this cloth", "Capitalism is good for you; don't ask why"
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"You may only vote Democrat or Republican"
False. You can vote with any party you want, it just won't make a lick of difference.
"You must pledge allegiance to this cloth"
There is no law requiring you to pledge your allegiance to the flag, though there is a considerable amount of pressure to do so.
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Let's not kid ourselves. You're thought implies that the people who do this have anything other than their own, immediate, self-interest in mind. They certainly aren't doing it for the social good, because they aren't that sophisticated. It's because of an unfortunate (but painfully obvious) inability to do anything else.
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Those boring things like 'privacy', 'due process', 'habeas corpus', 'Separation of powers' etc. exist to make sure nobody can grab the power and install a dictatorship
s/exist/used to exist/ :-(
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Uh, China could do anything they want to you if you're in China.
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But this is a warning to American visitors to China. ;)
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
In pot's defense, I may add, the thought of Chinese spying on my communications worries me far more.
Then you're not paying attention.
China has never kidnapped someone from another country, IN another country, and then sent them off to be tortured in a THIRD country in a secret CIA prison.
All because they heard some chatter that they decided was "terrorist" talk.
The US, on the other hand, has an official policy that if someone can not legally be extradited so the US can torture them, the US will send in the "extraordinary rendition" teams and take them off to secret torture prison on their own.
At least China sticks within their own borders.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
China has never kidnapped someone from another country, IN another country, and then sent them off to be tortured in a THIRD country in a secret CIA prison
Correct - China routinely kidnapps people from other countries and tortures them in Chinese prisons. This more direct approach saves the skulking about with intelligence agencies.
At least China sticks within their own borders.
No, not really, they just turotue or kill any citizen who complains about it, so you don't see much dissent online. I'm sure Tibet, for example, has an opinion about China remaining within its own borders, but you won't hear that opinion expressed within China very often, thanks to the whole prison and torture thing.
But go ahead an continue to equate the US and China, as it will warn others of the value of your opinions.
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China has never kidnapped someone from another country, IN another country, and then sent them off to be tortured....
Yeah, right. Next thing you're going to tell us is that Jack Bauer is a fictional character.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:4, Funny)
The US, on the other hand, has an official policy that if someone can not legally be extradited so the US can torture them, the US will send in the "extraordinary rendition" teams and take them off to secret torture prison on their own.
At least China sticks within their own borders.
that may be so, but: an hour later, you need to be tortured again..
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Why? China only cares if you're trying to free tibet or mongolia, or possibly have discovered a super giant oilfield under beijing.
The feds however will be very interested in why you were in China and the reasons you are now returning to the US, where you're staying, how much tax you pay, how you voted last time, how much weed you smoked at high school and who you bought it off.
Ch-Ch-Check your priorities...
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And my fax, or blackberry-relayed e-mail may say something about this...
Or under Darfur...
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
Heck, it is insignificant even compared to the economic losses, which my country may sustain, if China's industrial espionage is successful
What commercial knowledge do you imagine the Chinese would want to steal from the US? 98% of everything you consume is made in China or its close neighbours. The US (and in fact the whole of the "west") trumps China only in the service sector, where China doesn't want to, and geographically can't, compete. The US long ago shipped all it's industrial secrets willingly to China, relinquishing them eagerly in the pursuit of Mammon.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html [cia.gov]
Compare the first and last on that list and bear in mind that they are each other's largest trading partners... (coincidence it maybe, but if you add together 1,2 and 4 (I'm guessing germany is not a huge trading partner) it almost balances out the US's deficit: perhaps a good indication of where the money went)
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
What I don't get is why everyone is so afraid of this globalization. The global economy has benefitted from the US-China economic trade. And god forbid if anyone knew our "secrets!" Come on. The fact is if these things are widely known, then the knowledge is less likely to be lost forever if one country falls.
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The "pot" here is not talking to the "kettle". It is talking to us -- don't use fax or blackberry, if you don't want China to intercept the information.
You gotta be kidding. My blackberry uses 128-bit AES encryption to send information to/from my company's blackberry enterprise server.
I really doubt the Chinese can crack that. The blackberry platform [blackberry.com] has been audited from end-to-end by NATO, Communications Security Establishment (Canada), Communications Electronic Security Group (UK), Center for Secure Info
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What about between their server and the device (in China)? Is that leg just as encrypted — is the communication end-to-end, or is it sent clear-text over GSM, for the purposes of expediency?
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The big thing about the danger of interception of your private traffic is the level of corruption in those intercepting that traffic. So in the US example you would likely worry a lot more about the CIA than the FBI, as FBI agents whilst they might not be using your data in your best interests they are very unlikely to strip mine your bank account, steal your identity, hack your place of work or blackmail you (as for the CIA that depends on whether your dealing with a full timer or a contractor).
So to ex
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I get this deja-vu feeling... Pure FUD. Just like they warned us about Iraq's WMDs and now China is supposed to be a huge cyberspy. Honeslty, I can't see why China would even care about the U.S. ecomony. I think they're doing quite well on their own xie-xie. If I was Chinese, I would probably be very affraid of those supposed-to-be athletes who might be in fact CIA spies.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Informative)
Because the US is one of the largest economies in the world? And... you do realize they also do this to Germany, France, Brazil, the UK, and everyone else, too, right?
Pure FUD
Wrong. In the past three months I've encountered some increasingly sophisticated attacks on web servers, all in the name of getting specific scripts in front of very specific visiting users, all so that their browsers will run off to a laundry list of Chinese IP addresses and slurp up Trojan-installing malware that in turn sniffs keystrokes and piles up local files system objects into ZIP files that are then sent to OTHER Chinese IP addresses. This is not script kiddies screwing around, and the very deliberate targeting of people in the defense, engineering, and law enforcement areas is not blind luck.
Most of the attack I see comes from the US I.P. (Score:3, Insightful)
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I run a fairly small ISP here in the Midwest. I monitor our Internet traffic for some very specific signs of malicious activity. Almost 90% of the attacks, scans and probes we get currently come from China. Speaking for the security community in general, China is being so blatant with their attacks because they have no reason to hide the source. Everyone knows these attacks are originating from China so why bother expending the resources to hide in the shadows of Joe Blow's compromised Windows PC that o
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+1 Funny: Or the Russians, realizing that the Chinese and US hackers would think that way....
+1 Insightful: Really, the fact that the attacks came from China doesn't mean a god damn thing, other than that attacks can come from China.
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Actually... no. Never been there! Never even seen someone playing the game, come to think of it. Too many other time-using things in life, it seems.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:4, Insightful)
reads like 1984
In what way? Nothing mentioned in the article is beyond modern technology to do.
Consequently, I suspect the US deserves considerably less respect than China does with regard to these activities.
Wait a second... we should give china respect for invading people's privacy and for all the other things they do in violation of human rights, simply because we "expect" it from them?
Talk about your bigotry of low expectations, yeesh.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not so much about spying as what you do with the information. I can promote Islam or Communism right here on slashdot and, although NSA can probably hack into my account and get the contact info, I am not likely to be tortured and imprisoned. Neither are my comments blocked from the general public. On the other hand, discussing Falun Gong or Tibet independence from an olympic Internet cafe is likely to cause unpleasant consequences.
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Re:In Soviet USA (Score:4, Interesting)
Trouble is the list of suspected terrorists is quite large [aclu.org], and includes such deadly threats as Nelson Mandela, Cat Stevens, and Ted Kennedy.
The point of the 4th amendent is not at all debatable. We know exactly why it is there: because the British authorities had had the right to search any property in search of smuggled goods, and the good citizens of America decided they didn't want their new masters to have the same rights.
What is debatable is it's relevance to electronic communications. The answer is of course none, because the internet was unimaginable when it was written, even by such a prolific thinker as Benjamin Franklin. What actually needs to happen is for America to realise that semantic obessioning over the constitution is a diversionary tactic by the backers of these types of bills, and that the real laws are passed long before the press have stopped bitching about what "Unreasonable" means.
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Re:In Soviet USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Since i can't mod you as 'overrated' or 'pandering for karma', i'll post.
The pot and kettle are both black. So what of it? Does that make the pot's claim of the kettle's blackness any less true? You give the US less respect because the *current* gov't has been spying illegally than the Chinese who do so as matter of POLICY? At least in the US, if the gov't gets caught doing that there's SOME kind of recourse. We spy on them to find out what the threats might be. They do the same but also spy just to steal technology. They're notorious for reverse engineering (see Chinese MiGs).
Gov'ts spy on each other, that's a given. We spy on everyone and everyone spies on us, even our allies. The intel community has a saying, "there are friendly gov'ts, but there are no friendly intelligence agencies".
When Obama takes office, much of W's shenanigans will end, but you can't say that of China. Setting aside the Chinese gov't, the amount cyber crime originating in of China is staggering. Even if you only count copyright violation, it's a big deal. Here's a test for you: go do a few google searches on Tibet, Tienanmen Square, Hong Kong and Taiwan from your computer in any western nation. Then try the same thing in China. IF you manage to find anything, chances are it will be monitored and under control of the gov't. Then do searches on the net here for anything seditious you can think of. You'll find gigs and gigs of material criticizing the our gov't and no one will give a shit that you looked at it.
Then there's the matter of egomania that people think our gov't is spying on THEM personally. Who are you and what are you up to that you think the elephant gives a shit about the ant you are? Do you really think there's a GS-10 employee who cares that you rented Fahrenheit 9/11? Chances are he watched it too. And while we're at it... it rains because of condensation, not because God is crying because you touched yourself.
Re:In Soviet USA (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean sue the US gov't?
That might work, unless someone calls in the State Secrets Privilege [wikipedia.org], and then your case just disappears.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"When Obama takes office, much of W's shenanigans will end,"
I may be cynical, but I find that statement INCREDIBLY naive.
Re: (Score:2)
So you're going to ignore the likelihood of being spied on by the chinese because there's a chance the US government might be spying on you?
Re: (Score:2)
Think about it. The implications are obvious.
I am European and a [Cc]ynic.
CC.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's really very simple. Currently the US is Top Nation. China is bigger and has more resources, and will inevitably overtake the US and demote it to Second Nation. The US doesn't like that.
It's nothing to do with China as such -- Americans would react the same way if it was Canada that was threatening to become the new superpower, or if the Europeans got their act together and started competing with the world instead of each other.
Re: (Score:2)
I like how the government warns about us losing billions to Chinese espionage, yet we have a far more massive trade deficit and we send them all of our jobs. Who cares about espionage when we send them everything we have of value anyway?
Re: (Score:2)
1984? Oooo, Scary. That's like, so twenty-four years ago.
And, like only China does this stuff. Egad...the U.S. would never stoop to doing such things!
Of course Oceania wouldn't do that. And we've always been at war with Eastasia.
Re: (Score:2)
will they confiscate laptops indefinitively at the airport too? Oh wait, that's the U.S.
I haven't heard of any cases of U.S. Customs pwning travellers' laptops. I guess that (silently) speaks to their effectiveness.
Or did I just give them ideas?