Lenovo Requires NDA For Windows License Refund 321
tykev writes "A customer wanted to return the license for preinstalled Windows Vista Business that came with his Lenovo laptop. After some lengthy negotiations with representatives of Lenovo's technical support and management, he was offered financial compensation for returning the license in the amount of CZK 1950 (USD 130, EUR 78), pending his acceptance of a non-disclosure agreement that would cover the entire negotiations with the company and its results. He declined and published his experiences on a Czech Linux website. The website editors decided to reward the customer for publishing the article by paying him an author's royalty in the same amount as was the offered compensation for returning the license."
Vista is pants (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Vista is pants (Score:5, Funny)
no it's not
Re:Vista is pants (Score:5, Funny)
Linux is better
(This post is a violation of your bank's terms of service. Please choose another post instead.)
Re:Vista is pants Is this in reference to Lloyds? (Score:5, Informative)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/shropshire/7585098.stm [bbc.co.uk]
"A man who chose "Lloyds is pants" as his telephone banking password said he found it had been changed by a member of staff to "no it's not"."
""But what really incensed me was when I was told I could not change it back to 'Lloyds is pants' because they said it was not appropriate.
"I asked if it was 'pants' they didn't like, and would 'Lloyds is rubbish' do? But they didn't think so.
"So I tried 'Barclays is better' and that didn't go down too well either.
"The rules seemed to change, and they told me it had to be one word, so I tried 'censorship', but they didn't like that, and then said it had to be no more than six letters long." "
----
So, this is my position/question:
Why the HELL was a low-level functionary employee able to "see" the true password of a customer? The frackin password should have been a reduced or hashed form so that even if an IT person can copy and paste it in a local system, they could not know the contents and be able to type it in at a point of sales station or an ATM, or on any sites that reject copy-paste-in passwords...
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censorship
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That is a gross affront to the dignity and proud service of pants in covering up our naughty bits everywhere.
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Not another meme, please!
We already have to keep track of too many of them
Re:Vista is pants (Score:5, Informative)
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I personally don't see why pants (or underpants, as is more likely meant in the UK) should be associated with being crappy-in-an-incompetent-way, (under)pants, as an AC wag already pointed out, do a sterling and important duty. But that's the way it is.
It may have someting to do with the fact that underpants are in contact with your Arse, and that's about the amount of respect you give the crap product\company. i.e it's only worthy of being where you can shit on it.
Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
No. They offered him what he asked for, with conditions. He did not ask for those conditions.
Sounds like they were rather distasteful to him. As they should be. The loss of ones freedom of speech should NEVER be a condition to anything.
NDAs are counterproductive. Learn how to discern people that you can trust and you shouldn't have to rely on them.
I for one, will NEVER sign one, regardless of context. I view them as unconstitutional. Simple as that.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
A moron? For thinking that my constitutionally granted freedom of speech can be subverted by a piece of paper?
I believe it an inalienable RIGHT.
ANYTHING that subverts that right is counter-productive, as I can no longer function to my fullest capacity.
At least I have the balls to post my firmly held beliefs using my login.
I read that as "DNA"... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I read that as "DNA"... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I read that as "DNA"... (Score:5, Funny)
No, that's ADN.
I know because I'm a member...
Quick overview for speed readers... (Score:5, Funny)
Man buys a laptop from Leno.
Laptop comes with Windows Viagra.
Man insists he doesn't need Viagra, insists on money back.
Chinese authorities confused as to how a man can perform without it, ask for a copy of his DNA.
The Chinese insist that the man keep quiet:
Bootleg copy of Windows (the screen of death is red).
Laptop also contains birth records of the Chinese gymnastic team.
(OK, I admit, I made this part up, but it makes the story better.)
Man publishes his story on web.
Profit!
He's from the Czech (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah I think it's NATO good idea. Ukraine never know where it will stop.
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
I defy anyone to continue this using Uzbekistan or Tajikistan.
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, it's dead.
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That pun was Tajik, Stan.
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-Borat
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
It's a Spain to keep reading this thread. Perhaps you could Sweden the jokes a bit?
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Mmm, sweet things make me Hungary.
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:4, Funny)
I have some Turkey, if you're interested.
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:4, Funny)
I prefer Chili.
Just don't put in any Greece
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
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Suck my Pole, baby!
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
When you're ready for bed, let me know. I Kentucky you in.
Re: Sweded (Score:2, Funny)
We'll have these Sweded by tomorrow, no problem.
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Nor, might I add, would they Dane to send such a refund to Northern Europe. Not a single Finn. As for Southern Europe, I would expect they would be Balkan at every request. Even in their own part of the globe I think Lenovo would claim that their hands are Thai'd. And do so Lao'd and clear.
The only people with any hope at all for satisfaction live in the Hellenic Republic. Their palms are always Greece'd.
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:4, Funny)
Alright:
Two travelers from Hungary and Czech Republic are backpacking through a national park, when they are attacked and eaten by a pair of grizzly bears. Rangers shoot the bears and autopsy them. They open the female bear and find the remains of the Hungarian. Ranger turns to his partner and says, "I guess the Czech's in the male."
Ba-dum-bum.
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:4, Informative)
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:4, Funny)
Are you going to Finnish that?
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:5, Funny)
What did Delaware?
New Jersey?
Idaho, Alaska.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I think you have just invented wikijokes
Re:He's from the Czech (Score:4, Funny)
It spells "Slovakia".
or it gets the hose
Right so now we know the minimum (Score:5, Interesting)
So now we know the minimum we should accept. Time to start negotiating upwards to see what other numbers can be achieved.
That is probably the most effective way to start companies shipping hardware only or Linux pre-installed as the negotiation process will cost money. If 1,000 people went through this process with Lenovo (or Dell, or HP, etc) then we would probably see more progress than 5 years of bitching has managed to achieve.
Kudos to the guy
Re: (Score:2)
If people violate the NDA or regularly turn down the NDA, they will simply stop offering any money under an NDA.
The amount paid without an NDA is almost certain to be smaller.
Re:Right so now we know the minimum (Score:5, Interesting)
Or they'd publish a fixed price which means you could cost it out. Which after all is what we all want isn't it?
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no. /., but then again, /. isn't the real world either.
most people simply don't care.
i realize that thought is blasphemous on
Re:Right so now we know the minimum (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? I think most people would want their $130 USD back if they knew they qualified for it. It's not a lot of money, but it's not a trifle, either.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I tried to order my laptop without XP (since I had like six legal XP Pro licenses sitting around) but I didn't have any luck. The thick-accented Dell rep ("Michael" or somesuch, I'm sure) could not understand why I'd want to order a laptop with no OS, no matter how I explained it. I finally gave up... I guess I should have tried for a refund after the fact.
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My point is that the $130 is almost certainly the maximum for the fixed price, not the minimum.
It isn't even all that likely that they will make a similarly sized offer under an NDA, as that ship has sailed.
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my itemized invoice for a laptop a number of years ago showed Windows XP SP3 Home at $5. I was going to ask to return license til I saw the invoice. And Windows Starter Edition didn't exist yet so where they got the $5 I don't know. It wasn't worth the hassle for so little.
So they could probably make up a price, claim some expenses for the whole refund thing or something and make it seem like small change. the little people aren't going to have the legal backing to go after them anyways.
It will still be ver
Right Now, In the U.S. Vista Cost You $349 (Score:5, Informative)
Before anyone goes blathering on about "ufair" this and "innacurate" that, follow my test.
1. Visit Dell.com on two different browser tabs.
2. Tab #1 starts here.http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
3. Tab #2 starts here. http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1330?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19 [dell.com]
4. Configure the Vista product with the ultimate version. That is roughly feature equivalent to Ubuntu.
5. Pay attention to the hardware options because the Linux product has fewer and generally more storage/RAM.
6. At the end, you should have a spread of about $349.
So, Vista costs the consumer $349 OEM through the consumer URL.
Re: (Score:2)
You should also account for changing exchange rates, since the original offer wasn't in USD.
Re:Right Now, In the U.S. Vista Cost You $349 (Score:5, Insightful)
4. Configure the Vista product with the ultimate version. That is roughly feature equivalent to Ubuntu.
The point isn't to determine how much Windows Ultimate costs ($349 is probably about right), nor is it to perform a feature comparison of Windows vs. Ubuntu. The point is to determine how much the lowest 'Windows tax' is. From what we've seen, standard Windows should get you back about $130. That seems a bit high, as the OEM costs for Windows that I've heard are quite a bit lower. I wonder why they'd offer that high.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe their lawyer told them they were in a bad situation and they should settle?
Maybe the guy made the story up?
Maybe they used the street price and not the OEM price because they don't want to reveal the OEM price?
Who knows, that's the marvel of Microsoft's agreements. If there was an anti-trust trial, maybe it would shed some light on these shady practices. Oh wait! There was an anti-trust trial and we still don't know...
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Pick your poison [geizhals.at].
Gotta love EU-wide price comparison sites.
np: Landesvatter - Raun. (Lax)
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Re:Right Now, In the U.S. Vista Cost You $349 (Score:5, Funny)
But if i save 350$ buying a Ubuntu Dell box, im gonna have to spend 350$ buying vista because i can't make sense out anything on that ubuntu thing.
then ill be stuck having to install windows myself, which is just as bad.
am i not better off just paying 350 for windows on my dell and be done with it ?
hehe.
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That's ~$160 more that it should be and Dell is making 100% pure profit on. Vista Ultimate OEM costs a consumer or ma-n-pa small time system builder (any of your local PC shops) $190
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=Vista+Ultimate+OEM&x=0&y=0 [newegg.com]
Heck, you can buy the retail version for less than $350, it's $277.49 at Newegg:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116473 [newegg.com]
Dell is making even more profit than that because they they get Win
Re:Right Now, In the U.S. Vista Cost You $349 (Score:4, Informative)
Before anyone goes blathering on about "ufair" this and "innacurate" that, follow my test.
1. Visit Dell.com on two different browser tabs. ...
You'd be better off visiting in two different browsers. Else the site knows it's you because you have a common cookie.
I have had better luck getting unique results by using two different browsers.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Last week I got a refund of 83,30 euro's from Dell for Vista Home Premium Dutch and MS Works 9.0 (in the Netherlands we still can not buy Ubuntu laptops from dell).
After I got in contact with the right guy it was quite a smooth process.
Translation request - thanks (Score:2)
Thanks
Re:Translation request - thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Man wants his money back for a license he did not want from a PC purchase.
Microsoft says: "Sure but you keep your fscking mouth shut when we do this"
Guy said "Eat a box of shnausages"
Guy publishes an article about his experience, gets the money anyway but not from Microsoft. /I think?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Replace "Microsoft" with "Lenovo" and your summary of the summary is correct.
Consise and entertaining (Score:5, Funny)
Sleny operátorky na lince Lenovo byly velice milé. Po vyslechnutí mého poadavku m chtly odmítnout, ale poté, co jsem odcitoval píslunou ást licence, si vyádaly pár dní na zjitní aktuálního stavu od vedení firmy. Tím jsem se viditeln dostal o úrove vý, nebo nyní následovalo kolo telefonních rozhovor.
I dont know what it means but I like it. I think.
Re:Consise and entertaining (Score:4, Funny)
That was my favorite part, too. It started off kind of slowly, but the ending was great. Maybe Stephenson could learn to write in Czech.
Re:Consise and entertaining (Score:5, Funny)
Hmm.. "Sleny operators on the line Lenovo was very beautiful. After hearing my requirement m chtly refused, but after I odcitoval píslunou part of the licence, the vyádaly few days to zjitní current state of company management. Thus I got the viditeln level amount, or now, followed by round of telephone interview."
Still don't know what it means, but I agree with you.
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I know, I get these emails all the time, he's trying to sell you RiT@1iN. It's obviously a fraud though, he doesn't even spell it right.
Re:Consise and entertaining (Score:5, Informative)
"The operator girls on the Lenovo phone line were very nice. After hearing my request they wanted to reject, but after I cited them the respective part of the licence, they asked for few days to find out the current state from the company management. Obviously I got with that one level higher, as next round of phone talks started"
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The young ladies answering the phones were very polite and kind (also can mean beautiful, pleaseant, friendly, all the things you want a young lady to be.)
After they listened to my request they wanted to turn me down, but when I quoted the appropriate part of the license they asked for a couple of days to get the exact status from company management.
I had apparently a high enough level (of being annoying? Persistent?) as several rounds of telephonce calls resulted.
Doesn't quite translate but Czech and Engli
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Thurber said, in response to someone who said his stuff was great in French: Yes, my works lose something in the original.
Requiring NDA is changing the rules of the game. (Score:5, Insightful)
There go Lenovo's chances on my next laptop purchase.
Re:Requiring NDA is changing the rules of the game (Score:2, Insightful)
Why the hell is a NDA agreement required anyway? This is for a refund on a specific part of the total price. The price of Vista. Requiring a NDA for this is stupid unless you're trying to give as little away as possible - but wouldn't/shouldn't that be illegal? :P The cost of Windows on it is not subjective, it's concrete.
If it were me, and they attempted to hit me with a NDA prior to the process, I'd take them to court. Any NDA they have with microsoft is between them and microsoft. I should not be for
Re:Requiring NDA is changing the rules of the game (Score:4, Interesting)
Why the hell is a NDA agreement required anyway? This is for a refund on a specific part of the total price. The price of Vista. Requiring a NDA for this is stupid unless you're trying to give as little away as possible - but wouldn't/shouldn't that be illegal? :P The cost of Windows on it is not subjective, it's concrete.
I think you'll find the price of vista varies quite a bit depending on who you are. A large OEM like lenovo is going to pay less than the average joe buying a box off the shelf. If you're, say, a public school system who's put some thought into switching to linux, you'll probably pay even less.
Re: (Score:2)
well, you hit the nail on the head. It is all about Microsoft or Lenovo protecting Microsoft because they have an NDA with Microsoft. Unlike the laptop hardware or other software where the price is listed and itemized, Microsoft does not want you to know what is really getting paid for the Windows right-to-use license.
Did you notice that since Windows Starter Edition a few years ago, Microsoft is willing to go to $5 for Windows when going up against Linux? The pulled Windows XP out of its grave, crippled it
Re:Requiring NDA is changing the rules of the game (Score:4, Informative)
I'm surprised they've not changed their EULA yet to eliminate this whole refund bit.
Because they can't. The (dodgy) legal ground EULAs stand on relies on the users acceptance of the terms and conditions, if they don't offer a refund for people who don't accept then they've sold a defective product.
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The EULA also doesn't grant you the RIGHT to a refund from an OEM.
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The EULA also doesn't grant you the RIGHT to a refund from an OEM.
As much as I want to disagree with you, I'm afraid you're right.
In theory, you have by law the RIGHT for a refund, because in the first place you DON'T accept the terms of the EULA. Therefore, there's no agreement and you have NOT purchased the software in the first place.
But then again, nobody forced you to buy a Lenovo laptop if in the article purchase order it says "with Windows Vista". You bought it, you're screwed.
It's up to the Courts to decide the legality of forcing a software on you whenever you bu
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Re:Requiring NDA is changing the rules of the game (Score:5, Insightful)
going straight to MS
Which, incidentally, he should still be able to do, since he has not given up his license at this time. $260 is a lot better than $130. :D
Layne
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Instead of going through Lenovo, I filed a complaint with my state's AG office. I wasn't lookin' for a refund, rather physical media in case the hard drive were to fail and I could no longer use the "restore partition."
Couple weeks after my complaint is filed, I get an e-mail from Lenovo asking for my model/serial number so they can send me a disk. BUT I bought an IdeaPad which they don't have disks for.
I was like "What the? Party foul." and now they're letting me return the IdeaPad sans restock fee so I ca
Re: (Score:2)
Do you have a link? This would be interesting - I doubt that people on one of the two biggest Linux portals in Czechia wouldn't know that it's possible to buy Lenovo laptop with Linux.
My guess is even if they did, they won't do it here in Czechia. Asus also doesn't offer its EEE PC 901 with Linux here, for some strange reason.
Stupid Lenovo... (Score:5, Insightful)
The real question: (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it Lenovo? If so, is it some sort of routine ass-covering procedure that doesn't make all that much sense? Or is it something that applies to all "there is a not too well known way to get some money from us, we'll do it; but don't popularize it" situations?
Is it Microsoft? They have been historically tight lipped about their OEM agreements and prices, are they attempting to discourage indirect indicators like this one?
Re:The real question: (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason for an NDA is actually fairly obvious. Lenovo's probably eating the cost of the license in this case, and the last thing that it wants is for Czechoslovakians to realize that they can get 78 Euro off of the price of a laptop simply by asking.
Re:The real question: (Score:5, Informative)
Exactly. By the way, we are just Czechs now, but for Slovaks this procedure could easily apply too.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
That's also why corporations are so reluctant to publicly show their support for FOSS. They're afraid they'll have to pay some more "administrative" charges.
The only english story on the site (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder why on a Czech web portal, that one news article was in English. I did a little looking around trying to see if I could find any other pages in English but that was the only one. It was also the only one that had a /. submit script on it. Even the Czech version [abclinuxu.cz] of the story did not have the script.
Re:The only english story on the site (Score:5, Informative)
Big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Meanwhile, Microsoft still got paid for a product that was completely unwanted and unused. This is a great example of the Microsoft Tax in action. Even when their new operating system is a disaster and people refuse to use it, they still get paid, purely on the basis of their market position. This is the kind of reason why Microsoft should be subject to antitrust laws. Normal market forces just don't apply to them.
Re:Big deal (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Big deal (Score:4, Interesting)
And then what? Microsoft just can't be stopped short of using actual force, military, police, or otherwise. They have too much money to give a damn about any fine short of forcing them to pay off the national debt and they're too big for the govt to just say "Nope, you can't see shit anymore".
The only real way to get at them I think would be to offer the equivalent of modern day letters of marque against microsoft and tell everyone "Pirate their shit".
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Czech? (Score:5, Funny)
The website editors decided to reward the customer for publishing the article by paying him an author's royalty in the same amount as was the offered compensation for returning the license."
Lenovo tried to cancel the Czech. Did the editors pay the Czech with a check? I guess I should TRFM and Czech it out.
Business model (Score:2)
So, open source business model actually works.
Good on them.
Situation is not better for resellers (Score:5, Informative)
To my company, the best Lenovo could manage was a "If you bulk purchase 100 laptops of the same type we can negotiate downgrading them to Vista Home, but we will not refund the license.", after about a dozen e-mails.
Dell, on the other hand, refunds licenses after just two minutes on the phone.
Disclaimer: I've been trying to purchase brand-name laptops without an operating system for more than eight years now. Recently I've signed up as reseller for several big laptop manufacturers, who will remain anonymous. It's still impossible to get even a single one of them to accept the EULA and refund licenses to my customers. Also, the EULA says that my company would have to refund my customer, but none of the manufacturers so far gave me a way to get my money back from them. So if you're wondering why every store tells you that refunds don't exist, this might be it.
If you want to sell brand-name stuff without OS, the only choice you have is to contact another reseller who is a key account with the big guys. These resellers can sometimes get you built-to-order machines. Those, on the other hand, are often more expensive than a similar stock machine WITH Vista Pro, so if you think your customers are saving any money there, think again. All you get is the added inconvenience of waiting for the BTO.
If the manufacturers would at least honor the EULA, I could buy those machines with Windows and return the licenses myself, passing the savings on the customer. Since they don't, I can't even do that.
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There really ought to be a lawsuit in here somewhere. A big juicy class action one.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Noticed the same in The Netherlands. When on holiday in Bulgaria, I saw in ordinary shops several brand-laptops without windows (some without OS, some with linux). These tended to be the lower-end models, but dropping windows did appear to reduce the price by about 100 EUR for a comparable model. Also, the windows-less moddels were the ones with OSS-f