Redesigned, Bulkier Honda Insight to Challenge Prius 638
In what probably amounts to good news for consumers eyeing a hybrid for their next vehicle purchase, Honda is resurrecting the "Insight" name, this time in the form of a five-seat, Prius-like hatchback. The automaker's announcement included the tantalizing statement that the cost would be "significantly below [that of] hybrids available today," but provided no further details on pricing. Although Honda may have some trouble unseating Toyota's dominance of this particular hybrid market, hopefully the Insight's reintroduction will help to make hybrid cars even more affordable to consumers. This is also welcome news to folks like myself who, after the initial flurry of excitement when the now-retired original Insight was introduced in '99, were left scratching their heads at Honda's hybrid strategy as Toyota picked up their dropped ball and ran with it.
The problem is... (Score:5, Interesting)
If you have your car payed off and spend $70 a week for gas, that is a total of $3640 for an entire year.
On the other hand, if you buy a $25000 hybrid, you might only need to buy $30 of gas a week, but unless your car payments are less than $120 a month, you aren't saving any money by buying a hybrid.
Yes, over time a hybrid is going to save you money, but by the time you get it payed off, there will be a more effective hybrid that costs less.
Re:Screw this (Score:3, Interesting)
Better mileage than the Prius (Score:5, Interesting)
Or maybe turnabout? (Score:5, Interesting)
Honda should pick up Toyota's all-electric "dropped ball" and run with it. If memory serves, Toyota used to have a 100% electric car and stopped making it. Since ALL of my weekday driving is well within about 50 kilometres of home, I'd kill for one.
Re:Better mileage than the Prius (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Or maybe turnabout? (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem with current all-electric vehicles is that the battery technology that is most affordable (lead acid) doesn't last long, the most efficient battery (lithium ion) is too expensive, and the in-between (NiMH) is patented by Ceveron-Texaco and therefore will never be seen in an electric vehicle*.
*Yes, the patents will expire in 20 years, but by then lithium ion should be much cheaper, making NiMH batteries pointless.
This is so discouraging (Score:5, Interesting)
The 1989 civic got 50mpg highway, [fueleconomy.gov] better than the Prius.
Yes, we need extra safety items. Yes, those add weight. But all the advances made in improving efficiency have been burned away on power and sportiness and cup holders.
50 Mpg TWENTY years ago.
And no mention of a plug-in aspect.
Very discouraging.
Nice to see competition (Score:1, Interesting)
Honda's hybrid Civic has the battery panel across the back of the rear seats -- you can't fold the rear seats to put long items through the trunk. It's a great little car, but that crucial lack of utility makes it no-go for the single car owner.
That left the market to the Prius and the Escape/Tribute. The E/T looks like a truck, but check the inside and outside dimensions and you've got a small wagon, just ugly. While the Prius... Is it just me? I don't like this sole Toyota. The interior feels like a 74 Vega. I've been holding off, wanting better options for my next car purchase. Here's hoping Honda's does a fine job with the new Insight.
(Sorry - I tried to work a bad software analogy into this car thread but failed.)
They're holding out on us! (Score:5, Interesting)
Honda already has a car that is more fuel efficient than any car they sell in North America, and would easily out-sell the Prius. But they choose not to sell it in North America.. why?
It's called the Civic CTDi. The Civic is already the most popular car in North America. It is less expensive than the Civic Hybrid, offers a heap more power, and has arguably better combined mileage. In fact, this engine was awarded "International Engine of the Year" in 2005.
Re:Screw this (Score:2, Interesting)
The problem was with how the insight worked (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Sometimes you've got to ask yourself... (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, my Civic Hybrid looks just like a regular Civic.
Whether or not that's fugly is a matter for debate, though.
What gets me is that for 15 years, I was a light-truck guy (Nissans), and there are no hybrid light trucks. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nada.
I'd love to see a compact truck (smaller than either Nissan's current Frontier or the Tacoma) with a hybrid motor that can handle everyday use. I'd be first in line to buy one when they come out.
It's not worthy the name of Insight (Score:5, Interesting)
I own a real 2000 Honda Insight. It is an amazing car. Aluminum bodied two seater made to last.
The low weight and the 990 CC engine with electric assist ensure that I am the one pulling away with spinning wheels at the lights leaving muscle cars in the dust.
This new Insight although it looks like the original one, is a stock standard steel vehicle, high curb weight. Bigger engine on even bigger weight would mean less acceleration, poorer MPG and thanks to the steel body shorter lifespan. I test drove a brand new Honda Civic last week and came away less than impressed. Just another over sized car.
I think the real Insight showed a vision of smaller more nimble cars as frugal with gas as a small motor cycle. No you can't carry 10 bags or cement it it but that is why it is called a commuter vehicle.
The "new" "Insight" does not do the original car any justice.
Re:Sometimes you've got to ask yourself... (Score:1, Interesting)
where the hell are you going to put the batteries in a light truck?
Re:Nothing worth while to buy (Score:4, Interesting)
Number of Civic Hybrids sold (Score:2, Interesting)
Article mentions the number of Civic Hybrids sold in 2007... I own a 2006 (received at the end of 2005).
The count for 2007 was a little over 32,000... but I'm pretty sure when I bought my 2006, they told me only 40,000 were made for US distribution. Just made me wonder a bit about the number... maybe it's low because of lack of availability??
Why no small Diesels? Jackass regulations (Score:1, Interesting)
In the U.S. emissions are regulated by grams per gallon of fuel, instead of grams per km or mile.
This is done so the US makers can sell a 7.3L megaturbopowerpenis duallytripply.
Re:The problem is... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Screw this (Score:4, Interesting)
VW Golf TDI Hybrid (from May '08) [autoblog.com]
More info:
69 MPG Golf TDI Hybrid [ecogeek.org]
Though it will probably only be available in Europe for a while, it's still a step forward.
Re:The missing factor in the "economics": fun + co (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Screw this (Score:3, Interesting)
That's true of hybrids, too: the electric motor makes maximum torque at 0 RPM, you know. As for actual acceleration, IIRC the Insight's 0-60 time was ~12 seconds without any electric assist, but ~8 with full assist.
Why they "dropped the ball" (Score:2, Interesting)
It was obvious to me why Honda supposedly "dropped the ball" as the original article wonders about, each Insight they sold was at a loss, and they weren't likely to ever recoup the costs. Better for their competition to have more demand for such a product.
Sure their investment paid off in other ways, and they were still the first with a production hybrid (which was more efficient than the Prius) and now have the most hybrid available models I believe.
I only wish they'd make more of them as plug-ins or fully electric instead of requiring all that gas.
Of course, I also wish they'd bring the diesel Honda's to the US market, which would be much nicer than a hybrid and better mileage than a Prius at least.
Re:My gas guzzler is more environmentally friendly (Score:3, Interesting)
What are they? Salvage cars. They've been in an accident, they've been written off by the insurance company, and they piece them back together. Both of my sons drive them, they are excellent cars.
It's worth remembering that if a car has been in even quite a serious accident *but has been repaired properly* it's perfectly safe to drive. We repaired a friend's BMW that was quite badly damaged, and when the engineer came to assess the repairs (it was actually that bad) he pointed out that we should have cut apart the undamaged bits and welded them to up to the same standard as the repairs...
Congratulations, though. By keeping older cars out of the scrapyard and on the road, you're doing far more for the environment than any hybrid driver.
Re:Sometimes you've got to ask yourself... (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't ask for a hybrid truck.
What you want is a truck with a "green" diesel engine. Quiet and fuel efficient and still able to generate a lot of torque.
Re:It's not worthy the name of Insight (Score:3, Interesting)
I used to leave muscle cars in the dust at stoplights on my bike, however my 0-60 time was, roughly speaking, forever.
0-20 is probably a more important figure for around town driving. 0-60 is what you need for merging from full stop onto the highway.
Re:The problem is... (Score:1, Interesting)
I find it rather ironic that, on a technology forum, no one's mentioned that the cost of any *new* technology is greater than that of any *existing* one. Simply put, the cost of yesterday's technology has been paid, well, yesterday. That's why *any* green energy costs more today -- just imagine if oil was discovered yesterday and we had to pay for all the infrastructure that delivers gas within a few blocks of your home.
Conversely, the market will only respond to demand. Only by purchasing these new card will car manufacturers invest in manufacturing them. Care about the future? Then pay up front today.
Re:There's not enough natural gas for cars (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem with natural gas is that there's not enough of it. The biggest reason for the rise in electric tariffs in the early part of the 2000's was largely because everyone built natural gas power plants, and, they more or less used up all the natural gas. Now you want to go and build natural gas cars... good luck getting natural gas.
Isn't that why Mr. Pickens is suggesting that we adopt wind power on a large scale? I saw one of his interviews and he advocated using wind to displace natural gas for electrical production so that our natural gas resources can go into the transportation sector.
Re:Uhhh (Score:3, Interesting)
According to the New York Times [nytimes.com], 57% of Prius buyers cited "Makes a statement about me" as the reason they purchased the car.
Hmm..... I sense a coming storm of smug ;)
Re:Sometimes you've got to ask yourself... (Score:2, Interesting)
Diesel trains have operated purely off electrics with a generator being turned by a diesel for decades now. Lately GE has taken the obvious step of adding regenerative braking, batteries, and a controller to their Evolution series. Now whether all that will scale down ........
Why hybrids, and most modern cars are ugly: (Score:3, Interesting)
Why can't they make more 'green' cars that look svelt like the Tesla? At a reasonable price.
Well if you want a Tesla-like car, you'll have to hire Lotus to design it for you, which won't be cheap. And to meet modern safety standards, you'll have to use different (and expensive) construction methods and materials.
Otherwise you can go with the usual design process of the big automakers:
1. Someone who's had the creativity systematically beaten out of them draws up a decent looking but still somewhat bland and and forgettable design on paper.
2. The sketch is drawn up in CAD and goes through the dullification process. Any body lines are smoothed over, radical shapes homogenized, cool signature features of the car are removed in favor of something already in production (or easier to produce), nice proportionate wheels are swapped for the now standard golf-kart fuel-savers. To meet modern safety standards, the car has to be built like a tank, so A,B, and C pillars triple or quadruple in girth because it's too expensive to use honeycombed (unless it's a Subaru), triangulated or tubular pillar structures that wouldn't need to be the size of the frickin' Empire State building. The whole frame of the vehicle is beefed up and airbags are jammed in wherever possible.
3. An ugly, bloated, horrendously overweight jellybean of a car that bares only a slight resemblance to the concept sketch is produced. You yawn and never give it a second look.
People don't like cars that look too different, and won't buy cars if they can't compete in the safety arms race.
Re:Sometimes you've got to ask yourself... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Quiet diesel? (Score:2, Interesting)
Allegedly the Audi diesel that won Le Mans a year or 2 ago was quiet enough that "you could drive it through a suburban neighborhood and no one would call the police".
I imagine it was quite powerful too.
And you can feel it too (Score:3, Interesting)
I own an 07 Prius. You can really feel the drag coefficient when you coast. The thing will coast just about forever.
On my commute home, I jump off the freeway and up an off-ramp hill to my neighborhood. One of the things I like to do is to take my foot off the accelerator at freeway speed a ways before the ramp and see how far up the hill I can coast.
It's really a bizarre sensation. I usually can make it all the way at a decent speed and still have to use the brakes. It almost feels like you're sliding on ice. It's the kinetic->potential energy loss going up the hill that does most of the slowing of the car, not the wind and friction losses. And you can feel it. It's unearthly. It gives you the sensation that some invisible force is pulling you up the hill. Because you're so used to other cars slowing down much faster in similar circumstances.
The Prius really feels like you're driving a solid piece of magic sometimes.
Otto cycle - not the most efficient (Score:3, Interesting)
as that used by gasoline engines (the Otto Cycle)
For that matter, the Otto cycle isn't the most efficient for spark engines either. The Atkinson cycle, having a power stroke longer than the compression stroke, can be more efficient.
Though I don't think that that efficiency increase would be restricted to gasoline engines - it could also be utilized with a diesel engine.
Then again, I still remember reading about high-efficiency two stroke diesel engines should be able to meet emission standards without much effort. They use a turbocharger to flush out waste gases at the end of the cycle with fresh air, and no fuel is wasted(the major reason for fuel inefficiency and pollution with two stroke gasoline engines) because diesel isn't injected into the chamber until the end of the compression cycle anyways.
Could probably do this with gasline, you'd just need a diesel type injector for each cylinder.