DIY Hybrid Car Kit 309
Hybride And The Groom writes "Building hybrids uses machinery that pollutes the environment. The solution? Ship the parts of a hybrid individually and get your customers to put the car together themselves. That's exactly what Robert Q Riley Enterprises is doing, according to a story on CNet today, with its XR-3 hybrid. It'll cost you $25,000 for the bits, plus zero dollars in manufacture, I hope. Better yet, cough up $200 for the blueprints and schematics and even build the parts yourself. It's no secret that many hybrid drivers are smug enough as it is. Allow them to brag about having built the damn cars themselves and we might be entering obscenely smug territory."
buy an old S10 and convert it to electric (Score:5, Informative)
there are plenty of people doing nice electric S10's for under $10k including the donor car. The 40 miles round trip per charge is almost twice what I need.
uh, no, that's not the reason (Score:5, Informative)
Uh, building a hybrid at home probably makes more pollution than making it in a factory.
The reason they sell it as a kit is to avoid all the federal vehicle rules. By passing on assembly to the end-user, it becomes THEIR problem to get the car licensed.
Also I don't quite get the "zero dollars to manufacture". Lots of the steps involve lots of time, welding, painting, trips to the hardware store. That all costs many $$$.
RTFA (Score:4, Informative)
From the web site:
So the $25,000 is a guess at what you might be able to buy parts to build it for. It isn't an offer to sell a kit.
This would be a waste of time in Ontario, Canada (Score:3, Informative)
I submit that this project, though good in itself, would be of no use and therefore a waste of time in Ontario, Canada because the government over there will not license a similar project from a local manufacturer, Zenn http://www.zenncars.com/ [zenncars.com].
You wonder who these folks in government are working for. I suspect that they are protecting big oil.
Their argument is that these cars have not been proven to be safe on [Canadian] roads, though these same cars are available in the USA where they have not caused any trouble.
Has anyone used these cars? How do they perform?
Re:"Zero dollars in manufacture" (Score:2, Informative)
Same goes for the zero pollution to manufacture; last time I checked, it takes food, shelter, diversions, etc. to "power" a human. I wouldn't be surprised if having people build things by hand polluted the environment more than by machine.
And that same human requires those same things regardless of whether or not he's building a car from a kit, right? At least until we can manage to make cryostasis actually work that is.
Re:Neat idea... (Score:5, Informative)
Smarts aren't actually that fuel efficient -- 35mpg hwy/31mpg city if I remember correctly. It's not even a regular hybrid, let alone a *plug-in hybrid*, like this vehicle. Of course, for this vehicle, ignore the BS mileage figures; most EV and PHEV manufacturers come up with fake "mpg" figures that assume you drive X miles on electricity and Y miles on gasoline, where X is much greater than Y, and then ignore the electricity. Still, it's hugely beneficial. Even from our current grid, according to a DOE study, due to the greater efficiency of power plants, you get a third lower CO2 emissions by going electric.
For those who are interested in going electric, and aren't into novelty kit cars, here's a list of 33 upcoming EVs and PHEVs [dailykos.com], excluding motorcycles and commercial vans/semis, not counting concept cars, and not counting cars from new companies that haven't shown compelling evidence of working toward production.
3 wheels don't necessarily mean motorcycle. (Score:4, Informative)
It depends upon the regulations of the state or province. In British Columbia, Canada, a three-wheeled vehicle with an enclosed passenger compartment is considered an automobile. Some states call vehicles with 2 front wheels and 1 rear wheel cars, while others call the motorcycles. Some places it's a matter of engine displacement, body styles, etc.
Re:Registration? (Score:5, Informative)
Cars are a completely different matter, as the auto manufacturers have lobbied to make sure it's illegal for you to make your own car. Think of the children, etc. There are special categories for Antique and Street Rod cars, but there are restrictions against using them as daily drivers. However, trailers and motorcycles are still viable.
Yawn, not them again.... (Score:4, Informative)
rqriley has been selling "plans" for decades. they have been trying to get people to build the tri-magnum for 30 years without success...
http://www.rqriley.com/tri-mag.html [rqriley.com]
anyone with an ounce of mechnaical skill can do that without the "plans" and a regular car in less time with less cost.
Hell go get a smashed prius, a light car you want to make a hybrid and simply put the drivetrain in the car. All done, really easy and not rocket science.
Hell it's not hard to replace the ECM for the prius with something that is more hackable if you really wanted to.
You can get almost 100 miles from an S10 (Score:4, Informative)
If you sacrifice the bed, you can get a 92 mile range commuter vehicle out of an old S10.
http://www.austinev.org/evinfo/build/eva-selectingavehicle.html [austinev.org]
http://www.evalbum.com/037 [evalbum.com]
That may be much more than what you need, but the less you draw down your batteries, the longer your batteries will last. If you never let your batteries drain below 95%, they will last much, much longer than if you're draining them halfway down every day. In the long run, this may save you a lot of money, as battery replacement is the majority of the cost per mile for running an electric vehicle.
Re:This would be a waste of time in Ontario, Canad (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Hybrids suck anyway (Score:5, Informative)
Several things wrong with this.
1) The amount of energy needed to produce a modern battery generally only measures a few charge cycles worth. Virtually every peer-reviewed study of cars shows exactly what you'd expect: that far more energy is consumed during their lifetimes than during their construction. Your average car will burn a couple times it's own weight in fuel over its lifespan, and none of that is "recycled" like most of the car's body.
2) Yes, EVs cost more to buy than diesel cars currently. They also consume electricity which averages $0.10/kWh in the US instead of diesel which averages, what, $4.30/gal? Your average 40mpg-diesel sedan would take about 250Wh/mi electric, which equates to 9.3 cents per mile diesel and 2.5 cents per mile electric. Assuming reasonable battery longevity (i.e., either NiMH, zebra, or automotive li-ions, not lead-acid or traditional li-ions), the total cost of ownership for EVs is very favorable to them over their lifespans. This allows all sorts of methods to work around sticker shock for those who are concerned, such as longer loans, leases, surcharges on electricity fillups or battery swaps, battery rental, or so forth -- all of which give you a normal up-front cost and monthly operations costs that are still lower than what the average driver would spend on gas or diesel. And this is just with current battery costs; they're falling fast. Ener1 (parent company of battery maker EnerDel), for example, expects their cell prices to be cut in half over the next few years. Most automotive li-ion aren't even close to being limited by raw material costs.
3) Most diesel numbers are quite distorted to boot. Yes, diesel engines are more efficient than gasoline engines. No, they're not *that* much more efficient. Most people will look at some european diesel and lament that they're getting 50mpg or so and we can't get it here.
A) Diesel is simply a more dense fuel -- about 15% denser. Gasoline mpg != diesel mpg. Just ethanol mpgs are going to be inherently lower than gasoline due to its lower density, diesel is inherently going to get an artificial 15% boost that isn't representative of, say, it's CO2 footprint or how much oil it represents.
B) The european drive cycle is more lax than the revised EPA drivecycle, and is more similar to the old EPA drivecycle. Remember how much nicer the official numbers used to look in the US? Remember how they worked out in the real world? Same issue.
C) Sometimes the "gallons" you see on mpg numbers for european cars are imperial gallons, not US gallons. Imperial gallons are larger.
In general, a diesel car will emit around 80% as much CO2 per mile and consume about 80% as much oil chemical energy. It's a difference, and even a relevant one, but not as big of a difference as it at first appears.
It was never a problem... (Score:2, Informative)
Foy my brother. He was a custom fabricator, and he said the only problem was with bikes that actually had the frame fabbed. Most custom shops (OCC for example) use pre-fabbed frames, and those are no problem to insure.
Re:Neat idea... (Score:3, Informative)
Why lead-acid? I don't understand why so many EV converters use it nowadays. Because of its lower upfront costs? You're just wasting your money further down the road because you'll have to keep replacing them. Why not just install something that lasts, like lithium phosphate or stabilized spinel cells? You'll end up with a better handling, lighter-weight, more powerful, lower maintenance, faster charging vehicle to boot.
Re:"Zero dollars in manufacture" (Score:4, Informative)
The biggest reason why this is a kit car is almost certainly because
my guess would be so they don't have to pass all the crash and safety laws and regulations. much like kit airplanes, kit cars do not have to pass the same safety standards (which I understand involves destroying many cars = bad for the environment)
I am sure their are lots of other savings as well (shipping, licensing, financing, etc.) Also lots less warranty, because it will be on average years before many make any use of their cars.
Re:Neat idea... (Score:4, Informative)
As an aside, I've never actually encountered a hybrid owner who was smug about it. A few of my friends own them and it has never even actually been mentioned other than when I was thinking of getting one and asked how it had been running.
The gotchas of plug-in microcars (Score:3, Informative)
1. Microcars are so short that any non-professional driver of any vehicle with an elevated driving position is not going to see them, and you do not want to be hit by a large vehicle in a Microcar.
2. They're pretty much useless in snow or mud.
3. Without adequate alternative electricity sources, plug-in cars run on coal. The energy per unit of pollution is better than gasoline, but when people drive more because they don't have to pay for gas...
Re:oh well (Score:3, Informative)
Ever heard of Kit Cars?
It's been done for years. Sandrails (dune buggies), hot rods (some very custom ones are more or less ground up built).
Re:Neat idea... (Score:3, Informative)
The Smart is a city car. The brick-like shape isn't very aerodynamic, but low mass is far more important than efficient aerodynamics for city driving. Around town it's much more efficient than most things. If you're starting and stopping, small = efficient, or more accurately, light = efficient.
If you want a real car that's efficient, buy a Peugeot diesel hatchback. 60 mpg (UK gallons) with no need for fancy hybrid crap, 3/4 the price of a Prius. Unless you and you family are startlingly obese, have three 6'3" kids or regularly drive across continents a 308 is plenty of car. Actually, my dad does drive across continents in his 307 diesel, but only 2-up.
Re:oh well (Score:4, Informative)
"I can't imagine a DIY vehicle getting approved over road safety."
All that is required in my state is to document a reasonable number of the major parts (to answer any questions like "how do I know they aren't stolen?") and coordinate with DMV to send an officer by to inspect it. Upon his approval title will be issued. Also works with antique vehicles from states that didn't require titles for transfer.
Re:And this changes...what? (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe, but I don't think so.
The point of a hybrid is two fold, one is that energy wasted during braking is recovered and reused, and the charging is done at an RPM where the engine at its most efficient. It can be a smaller engine with less gas to produce a certain amount of energy.
A plug-in hybrid can use a more efficient power source on the grid. Even if it's from a coal plant, it's still considerably more efficient than an internal combustion engine.
The tools, welding and so on, are really a pittance compared to the amount of energy consumed in a gas engine. Think of it this way, one horsepower is about 3/4ths of a kilowatt. If you're getting 100hp on a car engine, that's 75 kilowatts. And a lot of people drive an hour a day, 20 days a month, 1,500 kWhr of energy produced in a month.
Re:Lifetime of Beetle parts... (Score:1, Informative)
In my experience, the part that breaks on the one you are using is already broken or worn out on the donor vehicles.
I suspect they design them that way.
Re:oh well (Score:2, Informative)
With cars certain things like how tight the bolts are screwed on matters. With the plug on the oil pan you don't want to do more than hand-tighten it, but you sure as hell want to do more than that when putting on the wheels. People who don't know things like that are going to have some time trying to put together their own car.