Ford's 65MPG Due In November, But Not In the US 1103
computermesh writes "Ford has a vehicle that gets 65MPG and will not be released in the US. Why? Because they can not afford to! 'Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.'"
Re:Truth (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, there's probably some kind of collusion going on. We could make a 45mpg car that has decent numbers back in the 80's, but we can't make anything comparable now? Bullshit. There's something behind the scenes.
Could it be that the cars today have tighter emissions and safety regulations, which cost efficiency and weight, respectively?
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:5, Interesting)
I actually have a 140 HP VW Diesel engine in my car, and I love it. :) (And no, it's not a VW, it's a Skoda).
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:4, Interesting)
That "mistaken belief" comes as the product of a lot of research into particulate emissions.
Still, Ford misses another opportunity to do good, as the emissions of this econobox are said to be decently low-- in the face of amazingly bad gas guzzlers throughout the state.
Remember that fuel in the EU runs between 8-11euros per gallon, adjusted. The car sell will sell well there, and we need to rebalance the trade deficits away from the Chinese for a change.
Re:Truth (Score:3, Interesting)
Can't they refit some of the SUV / truck lines in the US to produce the ECOnetic? I realize there are still refitting costs involved but it would readjust their production output to more closely match market demands and result in higher revenue.
Re:Truth (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Yer Right (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Truth (Score:4, Interesting)
Large, automatic transmission cars are a damn lot more comfortable than the small city-cars.
This seems to be one of the reasons that the American motor industry is so focused on hybrids: because they can make large, comfortable and lumbering cars that use as much fuel as a small one. In Europe, people have been used to small cars for a long time, but give the driver of a Crown Vic a Renault Clio and watch as they complain. Add that to the fact that the American commute can be as long as an European holiday, and it begins to seem that although diesel compacts are the most fuel-efficient technology, a car to truly be popular in the US should be a medium-large sedan with an efficient drivetrain.
Aly.
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:5, Interesting)
First off, my diesel hasn't been on the road for almost a year.
Second, how about getting out, going behind a 2009 diesel, and taking a whiff? There's nothing. The tailpipe is clean inside, even - can't say that about a gasoline car.
And, finally, the visible particulates from diesels settle to the ground, and if you inhale them, don't go nearly as deep as the gasoline ultrafine particulates that you can't see, and are much more likely to cause cancer. (Oh, and my gasoline car has visible emissions. I know, I know.)
Re:Truth (Score:3, Interesting)
"There's something behind the scenes"
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity [wikiquote.org].
I can't tell you why Ford is so stupid. Like my 3rd grade-teaching niece says, "I don't speak retard".
Re:What about the VW Golf? (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was living in France on of our neighbors did a house swap with a family in Michigan. The guy worked for Ford. He was AMAZED at the EU Fords. He knew that they were supposedly superior to the US versions, but always assumed that the supposed difference was mostly hype to try to convince the US workers to work harder.
Until he drove one around.
Re:Truth (Score:4, Interesting)
Add that to the fact that the American commute can be as long as an European holiday
I thought it was the other way round - most people I've spoken to in the US never do more than five or ten miles at a time in their cars. Most are pretty surprised to hear that I often rack up a couple of hundred miles a day, and that's not uncommon up here.
Re:Truth (Score:4, Interesting)
Yup, I can't count how many times I've been stuck behind some slow poke getting onto the freeway in their 200-300HP V6 or V8. I don't know why they need such a big engine when I am barely using the 120hp in my VW's I4.
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:4, Interesting)
Awesome to hear... I'll probably be trading in my full sized pickup for a TDI Sportswagen this fall as I move from rural Washington to Seattle.
Great to hear people are getting way over what the EPA suggested and still have room for carrying a bunch of crap.
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:2, Interesting)
Isn't this a bit negative? Bio-diesel is not snake oil in the sense it does nothing. It works, but as with anything except for gas/diesel, oil related products the manufacturing and distribution network is not there, plain and simple. Doesn't make it snake oil, though. It doesn't make it merely a "nice idea". It's all in the infrastructure.
If you carry that attitude about all of it, nothing will ever change because what's the point? It might actually take some work to get off gas/diesel dependency other than better mpg vehicles!
America, land of the optimists.
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:5, Interesting)
Likewise, except I had mine remapped so it should be more like upwards of 160HP (bear in mind that this is at about 4000RPM and you get a better idea of the torque involved), and I am averaging 37mpg despite regularly accelerating like a lunatic :)
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:4, Interesting)
Biodiesel is about the only fuel which really can be produced from crops/tanks of sludge.
The USA should be encouraging diesel engines for all it's worth, not making things difficult.
For the love of God, no! As an urban cyclist in a country whose tax laws strongly favour diesel vehicles (as various taxes are based on CO2 emissions alone), I can tell you that encouraging diesel use, at least in cities, is a terrible idea. Japan understands this: they've banned many diesel vehicles from Tokyo due to the harmful emissions [wikipedia.org] they put out. And you do realise that burning 'tanks of sludge', e.g. used cooking oil, stinks, right?
My point is that cities are much better off with petrol vehicles pumping out CO2 that's non-toxic in low concentrations than they are with diesel vehicles pumping out genuinely toxic particulates.
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:4, Interesting)
Peak power isn't really a useful number unless you intend to go ridiculously fast.
Diesel is different from gas in that the torque is where you want it, at the low end, so driving is still fun.
Re:Truth (Score:3, Interesting)
If it makes you feel any better, I've got the same 90HP you do, but in a V6.
I think I get about 18MPG. Gotta love the '80s.
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:5, Interesting)
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. (Score:1, Interesting)
There is ONE reason that car is not being brought over here. It has nothing to do with diesel. It has nothing to do with safety.
Simply put: NO one makes a profit on a Fiesta sized car in the US. Not the Americans, not the Japanese - NO one. It is simply too expensive to build the cars. Ford is working on building the car here just as quickly as they can - they're tooling up the engine plant in Brazil as we speak and the body and assembly plant as well. Unfortunately there's only so fast they can move. If they were to important the car that would be another 2-3k right out of their pockets. Trust me - they can't afford that right now.
Ford lost their Corporate Vision for a long, long time. Finally, with they're backs to the wall, they've gotten it back. Their quality is now on par with Toyota (though it will take a long time to repair their reputation). Their technology is jumping ahead - in the next 2 years they will LEAD in fuel economy in every segment except the hybrid. Unfortunately for them, they took a long long time to wake up. I just hope they can turn it around in time. I don't think the vast majority of Americans understand exactly what the Big 3 do for us in this country. Most who have ever walked through a newer big 3 plant would be flabberghasted by the technology and by the expertise of the workers. Most people don't do that though.
Most simply want to throw darts at one of the two most important industries in the country.
Re:Truth (Score:5, Interesting)
I ride a motorcycle to work every day in the name of fuel economy. When I changed jobs last and was no longer employed at the same place as my wife, I knew I needed a vehicle (we shared hers for a few years... it's amazing how well that works once you get over the initial bump).
Before long, I was looking at motorcycles. I had never ridden one, but I took the safety courses, got licensed, and purchased one all within a few weeks. I absolutely love it. Not only was the new bike cheaper than most used cars, my insurance is a measly $40/mo and I fill up my tank for about $9 every three or four weeks. My total transportation costs are negligible.
Fortunately, I live in a climate (southern California) where it's dry and warm enough to ride all year long. I also only have to travel a few miles each way using suburban roads (no highway). I feel as safe on my bike as I do driving a car... if not safer due to the added awareness and fewer distractions riding a motorcycle gives you.
(As a side note, my employer used to be about 12 miles away and recently moved much closer... had I known that was going to be the case, I would've simply gotten a bicycle, but alas... at least I can easily get around town for groceries and the like)
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:3, Interesting)
Have you actually driven a European diesel made in the past decade?
Diesel exhaust with the particulate filters recently required in Europe is CLEANER than regular gas exhaust. In every category. Including all particulates.
Re:Biodiesel would be good, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Too bad Volkswagen can't design their cars to be even minimally user serviceable. It took me 30 minutes to replace the cabin air filter in my wife's old Jetta. Takes about 3 minutes on my Corolla. I'd like Volkswagens better if they were designed to be repaired, and not just built. You have to take half the vehicle apart to get to anything, which drives maintenance costs through the roof.
Re:Truth (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc3b9c66-8053-11dd-99a9-000077b07658.html
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:5, Interesting)
A study a few years ago showed that the major cause of traffic jams was caused by people automatically hitting their brakes as they go over a hilltop, no matter how small. And then the person behind them will break harder, not knowing how hard the person in front of them breaks. And so on, for at least half a mile back. This is a psychological phenomenon, and it's unlikely that there are any good remedies, except for removing anything that could be perceived as a hilltop.
Ford! Stop pussyfooting around! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:3, Interesting)
Ethanol plants burn waste plant parts to create electricity, producing about 15% surplus over a plant's requirements to produce the fuel. Ethanol fuel also produces about 10% of the exhaust compared to petrol engines over the same distance and a fraction of the contaminants such as sulfur compounds. Perhaps more signifigantly, ethanol has almost zero carbon impact because the carbon used to produce the fuel already exists in the biosphere, where as carbon from petrol has been locked in the ground for millions of years.
Yes ethanol gets about 30% less milage than the same volume of gasoline, it has less energy. It also tends to be 30% cheaper than petrol (at least in Brazil) which makes it competative in the consumer market. Ethanol has yet to make in roads in industrial settings because the fuel cannot compete with diesel for large trucks and machinery, but improved diesel technology means that those engines aren't as ineffecient or dirty as they used to be either.
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:5, Interesting)
Construction zones on the interstate that slow you from 75 to 55 are a culprit. Can someone explain the logic in taking a fast speed, slowing it down to just a slightly slower but still fast speed, and making people slow down when the construction itself is over a 100 feet from the interstate, with concrete barriers blocking the interstate from the construction?
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:3, Interesting)
I have no idea why the US hasn't fallen in love with diesel yet.
I do...
1. Diesels are more expensive.
2. Diesel fuel is more expensive, wiping out much or all of the fuel cost savings.
3. Performance suffers since diesels are heavier and cannot rev as high.
4. At highway speeds they aren't that much more efficient (since the throttle plate in a gasoline engine is more open). Americans do a lot of highway driving.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater... for a pokey little commuter car, the small efficiency gain probably makes sense - and they tend to last longer so they are probably a better long-term investment. For trucks, diesels kick ass.
popular vs popular enough ? (Score:1, Interesting)
I drive a small car, and would love to get a smaller one; I normally just drive myself to work; my wife has a van for the kids.
How many more Americans are like me ? I think a really small, cheap, fuel-efficient car would be a hit here; who cares if 80% wouldn't want it, if it gets you 100% of the other 20% ?
We're forgetting a couple of things: (Score:4, Interesting)
1) The Duratorq engine used on this model of the new Ford Fiesta doesn't come close to meeting the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions standard for internal combustion engines, which is necessary for 50-state sales of the vehicle.
2) Ford did a number of "tricks" to get that very high fuel economy number, notably using very high gearing, low-rolling resistance tires, and removing a number of accessories considered standard for a modern car. As such, you'll have to forgo air conditioning and put up with sluggish acceleration, both of which are unacceptable to American drivers!
If Ford does offer the Duratorq turbodiesel engine on the North American-market Fiesta, it will likely be a larger displacement unit (1.6 liters) with modern emission controls to make the engine meet EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 standard. It may also use the new Powershift six-speed dual-clutch transmission, which is starting to become available on European-market Ford Focus models. Sure, it won't get the extreme fuel economy of the ECOnetic Fiesta, but fuel economy approaching 50 mpg with the current EPA highway fuel economy test may be possible.
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:3, Interesting)
Um, what? (Score:2, Interesting)
You get better efficiency by increasing the difference in pressures, and since newer diesels are turbocharged, you can force more fuel/air in per power stroke. This has the effect of running on a 'bigger' engine, without all the weight. When we figure out how to reliably get gas direct injection technology to work, eventually running gas in similar parameters that we run in diesels, we'll see more efficient engines. The nice thing about diesels is that you don't break things by running too lean. Running too lean in a gas engine is a great way to have an excuse to go out and buy yourself a new engine.
The bottom line is that we can get great mileage today with today's technology. Americans (and probably the rest of the world) get sold on being able to accelerate quickly. We'd all be fine with engines that have a peak output of whatever the car needs to be able to push air out of the way at whatever reasonable top speed you want. Rough estimate is something like 50 HP or so for the average car at average highway speeds in the USA. Why do you think that the hobbyists that do it for fun drive the way they do?
As far as I know, we like diesel locomotives because those diesels power big generators that run 3 phase motors, which deliver constant power. Constant power means many good things when trying to do work - less vibrations, more even wear-and-tear, etc. That, and diesel fuel is a little more transportable than most fuels that we use to make power.
The problem with diesels on the road is emissions combined with everyone wanting their own car. I understand that many many people have a basic work need to have their own car and have no public transit alternative, but there's a great deal of us that are willing to put up with the hassle and expense of having our own transportation just so we don't have to be at the hassle of other people.
Re:Truth (Score:1, Interesting)
Ok, NOx causes smog, acid rain and global warming while CO2 only causes global warming. But you're forgetting two things: NOx production in ppm is lower, and NOx is less stable in the atmosphere than CO2 (decomposes into N2/O2, or simply rains out).
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:3, Interesting)
Biking to work is great, if you can swing it. But in cold weather states it just isn't an option for a large portion of the year. And with the poor condition of many states roads, its a wonder you can actually drive a regular car on them, nevermind a road bike.
But I see a lot of people bring up "just bike the 5 miles to work to save gas". The trouble is, the people that live 5 miles from work are the same ones that can drive a Hummer without breaking the bank on a gasoline bill. The people that really need to save money are the ones that live far out...but most of them don't have 4 extra hours a day for the bike ride to work either.
Interstates have 3 lanes (Score:3, Interesting)
I can speak to the whole "idiots passing on the right" thing.
When I was racing, I drove a fairly large and long tow rig. Not quite as big as a full semi-trailer rig, but still pretty big and heavy.
When you drive something this size, you don't have the ability to suddenly jog left or right, because you are 2.5 cars long. A simple shoulder check won't cut it, because your "side impact zone" is 1.5 times longer than on a full size car. I could have 3 compact cars running nose-to-tail fit alongside my rig.
Furthermore, when you weigh 10,000 lbs, you cannot speed up or slow down very well. You have to be looking quite a bit farther down the road than one does driving a passenger car.
And finally, you have an absolutely MASSIVE blind spot running down the right hand side of the rig. Tow mirrors with fisheyes help a lot, but it is possible to stick a car along the right hand side of the rig and I *absolutely* cannot see you there.
On open two-lane Interstate, I keep right. I'm quite a bit slower (120 km/h) than most passenger car traffic, and on-ramps are infrequent enough that it's not a big deal to move left to avoid the merge lanes as they arrive.
On three-lane Interstate, I stay in the center lane. This gets me away from merge lanes on the right (especially in large urban environments where merges can happen with no warning) and yet still leaves the leftmost lane open for faster traffic.
On crowded 2-lane Interstate, I'm probably in the left lane. The threat to me from merging traffic is just too high for me to keep right, because 4-wheelers won't create space for me to move left as we approach a merge lane - they see the left lane as their divine right and will zip right in even as I am moving left. Rather than get caught between an idiot moving into me from the right and idiots not giving me space to temporarily move left to dodge the right-side idiot, I'll plug the left lane and stay safe. I will attempt to move right again as soon as I can, but my safety trumps your convienience.
But most Insterstate where the on-ramp frequency is high enough to pose this problem is three-lane, so I can take the middle lane and both stay safe from merges and yet not block the fast lane.
But here's what drives me nuts: an open left lane, and somebody passes me on the RIGHT. I absolutely cannot see you coming, and I don't expect to be passed on the right hand side. If I am trying to move right to unplug the left lanes (which I try to do as often as I can) I will hit you - and I cannot manouvre very well to avoid you if I *do* suddenly see you.
When you pass on the right, you seriously endanger both yourself and the vehicle you are passing - whereas if you take the open left lane, there's no danger AT ALL - and yet morons continue to pass on the right.
If I am plugging the left lane and you absolutely need by, give me a flash of the high beams, and I will move right for you as soon as I am safely able to. "Flash to pass" is a polite way of requesting the lane, and I will respect politeness.
But if I see you coming on the right, I'll probably box you, because I don't want a moron in a position where he can pose a threat.
Passing on the right is NEVER EVER EVER justified. It is just stupid dangerous.
And as rigs go, I was fairly small. The problem is way, way worse with semis. You should hear them talk on the CB when some 4-wheeler passes on the right....
You'll see some semis marked with "" on the back, and that is no exaggeration.
DG
Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? (Score:1, Interesting)
This happens in Los Angeles traffic all day long that if the person in the left lane is not fast enough they have to be passed immediately before the person can even get to the right to allow them to pass, blinkers are only turned on once they are halfway crossing the line. It is stupid people try to play games in traffic, slowing others down behind them but when they try to pass them on the right they speed up and prevent them.
If you know your traffic and know where it builds up to get on another freeway, you can usually cruise in the 2nd right hand lane from the center. I just cruise in the lane letting them pass on the left and usually if traffic is moving slow I stretch my arm over to my headrest like I am taking at easy, sure enough he makes 5 car lengths ahead and I pass him up cruising slowly.
605 to the 5 to the 10 everyday, I have seen it all and even had a gun flashed at me. Whatever if you see a truly reckless driver just report it to the CHP/DMV and if they get enough complaints racked up it can lead to more.