FireFox 3.1 Leaves IE in the Dust 435
Anonymous writes "Granted, FireFox 3.1 is just a beta and IE 8 is also in beta, but it looks like Microsoft has some ground to make up when it comes to browser performance. Given that Mozilla appears to be on a much faster cycle than Microsoft with this stuff, it's also possible that it could increase the gap even more before IE 8 is GA, no?"
Tired of Perma-Beta (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Simple Really (Score:3, Interesting)
This destroys Microsoft's claim that their intimate knowledge of the OS that runs IE will increase performance.
Oh? When did they ever claim that?
Microsoft's foolish mistake (Score:5, Interesting)
For the life of me, I can't understand why Microsoft continues to abandon its strength.
It feels like the .NET koolaid is coming even to the IE team. Microsoft's .NET push now borders on maniacal, standardizing on .NET and in places where it should not be standardized. Performance matters, particularly when processors aren't getting any faster, just more parallel. Microsoft's has left C++ to languish, has all but abandoned C, and as such has no real performance tool in their own arsenal.
At the same time, the OSS community is actually slogging through and solving some of the difficult problems of making large projects in C++ that perform - getting better experience with the STL, when to use and when not to use, changing compilers to respond, developing automated testing methodologies to overcome what the compilers can't detect, and so on.
There should be no reason for the Windows desktop to be stagnant for fast applications, but Microsoft has basically abandoned it and is pushing developers to do the same. All the new display stuff in Windows requires .NET.. one wonders, how long will it be before Linux has similar systems but are presented as a simple C library that any system can use, regardless of whether it is a managed platform or not.
Re:Java != Javascript (Score:1, Interesting)
If they haven't caught on by now, they never will.
I still have early web development books that make the same mistake.
Behold the power of branding.
Re:Simple Really YOU HAVE INCORRECT FACTS! apk (Score:2, Interesting)
"The issue is similar to the ones that have always plagued Java; you have to load massive libraries to do miniscule tasks and that causes noticeable overhead, when they were sadly intended to save time!" - by mfh (56) on Monday October 20, @11:02AM (#25441013)
When you load a library, & call out its API functions to leverage in another executable (usually an .exe)?
You don't LOAD THE WHOLE THING @ ONCE into the calling app's memory space - YOU ONLY LOAD THE FUNCTION PORTION YOU NEED, period.
(API function call loads from .DLL's are NOT an "all or nothing load" into a calling apps' memory space (in-process calls))
----
"Firefox is simply more minimal, and it is through their actively sought after security footprint that they deliver better performance by default" - by mfh (56) on Monday October 20, @11:02AM (#25441013)
AND, FF doesn't do, or is by itself incapable of, doing much of what IE can in Intranet environs for businesses' internal apps (especially those that use ActiveX controls, or even some functions of .NET via say, ASP.NET).
Every considered that much?
APK
P.S.=> It's hilarious sometimes, when you "purely web guys" try to describe HOW the underlying OS really works, as well as its API (because most times, most of you are way, WAY wrong) in Windows, & the person I am replying to here is just yet another example! apk
Now, can they cut down the spam? (Score:5, Interesting)
I mean, OK, it's nice to have the name and URL both in the dropdown from the location bar, but do they have to use so much space doing it?
Camino had that months earlier, without burning nearly as much real estate on it.
Re:Simple Really (Score:5, Interesting)
This destroys Microsoft's claim that their intimate knowledge of the OS that runs IE will increase performance.
Really? Where was this claimed?
This proves that Microsoft's intimate knowledge of their OS actually inhibits performance of IE and therefore all other Microsoft products.
That's quite the leap there. Where's your evidence to bridge those thoughts?
The issue is similar to the ones that have always plagued Java; you have to load massive libraries to do miniscule tasks and that causes noticeable overhead, when they were sadly intended to save time! Firefox is simply more minimal, and it is through their actively sought after security footprint that they deliver better performance by default.
I don't think anyone said using libraries increased performance. What it does do is allow you to build an application faster, because you don't need to re-invent the wheel. You're also acting like speed is the only important factor here. I've been using IE8 beta more because of the built in developer tools, and being able to switch between IE8 standards mode and IE7 mode... which means I don't have to check FF's rendering as much. Besides, IE8 is so fast, that it hardly seems worth if it FF is faster.. either will be great for browsing, because both are now really really fast. It's not like the ridiculously slow IE7.
Add with that experience, superior plugins like NoScript, and you also save bandwidth because Flash files don't load by default and scripts don't tie up resources unless you approve them to do so. NoScript was designed for security, but with the added benefit that you get faster performance with it.
Performance is not the end-all be-all of browsing. I'm sure someone so included could whip up an add-in like NoScript in IE as well.
Even when you look at Google Chrome, which is also a valid attempt at increasing performance (they flaunt security as a pillar of their design, but their cheerleading is unwarranted), the fact that you can't control scripts that are allowed to run, limits the user and make the user bound to the control of the webmaster, who typically controlled by a business or corporation that is only in it for the money and will infringe on rights of users without any form of conscience or compassion.
I'm not sure most users care as much as you about controling scripts. For example, I'm looking forward to see what features FF comes up with, because I think there are other new features in IE8 that look pretty compelling, like WebSlices and Extenders.
Re:Does this really matter? (Score:3, Interesting)
Remember when browsers were considered I/O-bound apps, anyway? A 386 is fast enough to run a browser, and we should be complaining about our 28.8Kbps modems being the limiting factor. But nooo.... here we are talking about the speed of an internet client app. What a strange world we live in.
Re:Simple Really (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft did tout the benefits of integrating IE into the operating system including reduced memory usage and increased functionality (for the OS as well as third parties). See this artcile [harvard.edu] for a summary of testimony and cross examination of Glenn Weadock.
The appeals court said [nytimes.com]:
Re:And yet (Score:5, Interesting)
Thanks, heh! For a minute I thought I had an original idea but it turns out there other other (better but slower) js raytracers out there. Humm :)
Webkit is great. If you're running that you might actually see some animation here [googlepages.com] (10fps+ in Safari nightly here). I wonder if the demoscene guys are insane enough to write demos for browsers?
SVG support in the 3.1 beta is getting really good (Score:2, Interesting)
I have been developing a few SVG based applications for the last 5 years and finally as of the 3.1 beta the performance is becoming acceptable(*). One of my applications is a control panel which has a number of SVG based buttons on it (somewhere around 30 buttons). In the past just moving the mouse over the panel would cause the CPU to chug along at nearly 100% utilization... but now that is mostly gone! Now you have to move the mouse pretty fast to see much utilization. Nice work guys, keep it up!
* On high-end hardware at least. Slower systems still can't handle anything very complicated. I'm hoping they improve performance even more because it's still very common to have a 1.5 Celeron or so (think netbooks) which still have problems with anything other than very basic apps.
Re:Java != Javascript (Score:5, Interesting)
When is the press going to realize that Java != Javascript? (Or Java !== Javascript, even!)
Heh heh heh. Believe it or not, when I first interviewed for a Senior Editor position at Web Techniques magazine, back around 2000, I had never been any kind of Junior Editor before. I just assumed I could do the job. In the course of several interviews, the editorial staff asked me a number of questions about Web technologies, including one from the editor-in-chief: "What's the relationship between Java and JavaScript?"
I got really nervous for a second. I wasn't sure what to say. My interviewer raised an eyebrow. Finally I stammered out, "Well... I'm not sure I really know how to answer that. The truth is there really isn't much of a relationship." I then talked about Sun's release of Java 1.0, and how Netscape had been working on a language called LiveScript that they planned to include in their browser, and that they changed the name to JavaScript as a favor to Sun. But, I emphasized, the languages were really not very closely related, and I felt a little awkward comparing them without maybe a more specific question. My interviewer jotted down a couple of notes and suggested we move on to another topic.
I later found out that a big part of the reason they hired me, despite my lack of publishing experience at the time, was because of all the candidates they interviewed -- some with years of experience in the trade press -- not one but me had a satisfactory answer to the Java/JavaScript question. Most said something along the lines of "JavaScript is a stripped-down version of Java for Web browsers."
So in answer to your question -- when will the press get a clue -- I'm not sure. But I can testify from firsthand experience that they're working on it! ;-)
IE is perfect (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:And yet (Score:4, Interesting)
This was on reddit the other day..
http://www.p01.org/releases/Demoscene/files/mars_canvas_256b.htm [p01.org]
Re:Java != Javascript (Score:3, Interesting)
Quite a few Norwegian banks do, even though university students regularly disclose vulnerabilities in the system.
Re:And yet (Score:4, Interesting)
As pointed out by others, you forgot to turn on Tracemonkey on FF3.1, so you are getting just marginally better results.
My numbers for SunSpider (on a fairly old machine):
FF 3.03 (actually Iceweasel): 17481.8ms +/- 9.1%
FF 3.1 (with TraceMonkey on): 2627.8ms +/- 6.9%
To enable Tracemonkey in FF3.1 beta you have to set javascript.options.jit.content to true.