Untangling Web Information 76
Ostracus writes "The next big stage in the evolution of the Internet, according to many experts and luminaries, will be the advent of the Semantic Web — that is, technologies that let computers process the meaning of Web pages instead of simply downloading or serving them up blindly. Microsoft's acquisition of the semantic search engine Powerset earlier this year shows faith in this vision. But thus far, little Semantic Web technology has been available to the general public. That's why many eyes will be on Twine, a Web organizer based on semantic technology that launches publicly today."
The Story of the Semantic Web--Slashdot Style! (Score:5, Interesting)
But that was the long long ago, so let's fast forward a few years. When its future looked most bleak, Sir Tim (who can summon fire and explosions at will) told us what to expect [slashdot.org]
Then a few years passed and nothing.
Until the 2006 World Wide Web conference made us suspicious of the Semantic Web [slashdot.org]. We spread rumors about the Semantic Web and told all the cooler technologies that the Semantic Web was just out to rape our privacy. So we challenged the Semantic Web [slashdot.org]. And claimed it would fail [slashdot.org].
Just when I was expecting Sir Tim to get underneath a blanket & release a sobbing YouTube video of everyone being bastards for attacking The Semantic Web right when she was going through really tough times and that we should all just leave her alone
I've got no problem with people pushing technologies but this one sounds more like a soap opera than anything. Has the Semantic Web changed anything for anyone on Slashdot? I haven't seen anything directly if it has
twine "semantic"? how about no. (Score:1, Interesting)
as an "early adopter" all i can say is this is the most overhyped and pathetic bookmarking site i've seen in a while.
all it does is let you bookmark URLs (via the amazing tech of "bookmarklet"), and then print them URLs embedded in a lot of tags (awww, yeah, RDF, semantics-schemantics). if that is what the semantic web ought to be, thanks, but how about no.
i tried to upload a picture via their e-mail system from my phone. it was a jpeg with embedded location data. guess what I got -- I got an "item" classified as "attachment".
so, again, twine? how about no.
Re:The Story of the Semantic Web--Slashdot Style! (Score:5, Interesting)
First off, that was brilliant.
I've got no problem with people pushing technologies but this one sounds more like a soap opera than anything. Has the Semantic Web changed anything for anyone on Slashdot? I haven't seen anything directly if it has ...
My problem is simply this: Assuming a "semantic web" existed right here and now, how would I use it? Google I can understand: Go there, fill in the blank with whatever I can think of, hit "Search" and hope for the best.
Trying to get a computer to understand the meaning of a web page is, fundamentally, getting machines to do my thinking for me. In my experience, they're pretty bad at it.
And that's not even considering sites with political spin; how would a machine work out the meaning there? Someone's going to say it's wrong, and if that someone is the user performing the search, then the semantic search is going to take the blame.
This will also lead to "Semantic Engine Optimizers" figuring out how to polish turd websites into something that even shows up, which makes the semantic web less useful. About as useful as, say, Google is now.
The "Semantic Web" to me is like the future: everyone has their own idea of how it will be, and the reality will disappoint them. Ideas are cheap, and at this point, nobody should care unless they're actually going to make something out of them.
When a semantic search engine ships that is actually useful, let me know. Until then, I'll stick with the best semantic search engine I've ever seen: the people I know.
Re:The Story of the Semantic Web--Slashdot Style! (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked, in a research capacity, on technologies for building the semantic web for a while and to be quite honest with you I can't see how it could ever work in the real world. Just in the department I was in there must have been a dozen different ideas for how to build a semantic web and the only thing that tied them all together was the fact that they all relied on humans doing a lot of work to tell a computer what the content was about.
I'm sure that some of this semantic web technology will be useful somewhere but it's not going to take the world by storm simply because it doesn't work well enough and it requires too much up front effort for possibly / probably no gain.
The only way I can really see it working is if we can develop AI to the point where it can actually understand what it is reading without a human having to first develop some huge ontology and join the dots for it. But that's just my opinion.
Re:Semantics (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed, <meta content="sex, porn, titties, hotties, clit, cunt, naked, nude">
Of course it's not really a porn site, but the site operator found that it gave him hits. My (admittedly limited) look at the "semantic web" shows no sign that it will be any less suceptable to being gamed.
Re:The Story of the Semantic Web--Slashdot Style! (Score:5, Interesting)
This about sums up my experience with it as well.
First we started off with categories, and tags in our searches. Then we switched to no-searching, but a filter-based tree mechanism for reducing the number of hits - instead of a table of contents. Then we switched to a table of contents using "task", "product" +4 other tree 'heads'. Then they started mulling over per-sentence tagging. It kept ballooning because it was obvious that though we had all these tags and a hierarchy and divisions, it didn't help - our customers used google to search for our help doc rather than our internal systems/help application.
In the end, they decided that they needed to automatically categorize everything. I tried to point out the futility of it, and what that would get them, but no one really wanted to listen. They were very surprised in the end when they got a search engine that looked for keywords.
Exactly what the help system they started with already did.
The two biggest problems with semantic-anything is
1) it doesn't provide any additional value without an exponentially increasing order level of (human) effort,
and
2) Unless someone comes up with a single, agreed upon, final, categorization (an ontology) - your markup will always disagree with someone elses, except for the most simple things that would be noted by search engines looking for keywords.
When I left, the project had been ongoing for 3 years, and they still didn't know what they wanted it to do - they were still searching for purpose and changing the target every day. ... we didn't share an office, did we?
It's not. (Score:3, Interesting)
All the semantic web gives you is the ability to layer a logical design over data. It's like a database design, except it's "open world", meaning there can be many different designs, it's up to the agent to pick the one it trusts, and it can't really make assumptions based on what it doesn't know.
The only inferences made are those that have been imagined by some human designer. And they might be very wrong , if the designer was wrong.
The "kinds" of inferences available are also pretty limited, like hierarchy or transitivity, or set membership. Useful, yes, but stepping stones...
Re:The Story of the Semantic Web--Slashdot Style! (Score:3, Interesting)
"Trying to get a computer to understand the meaning of a web page is, fundamentally, getting machines to do my thinking for me. In my experience, they're pretty bad at it."
They're pretty bad at it NOW, personally I think the web would get infinitely better if all user tastes and profiles were congregated, as they are at delicious, so people with similar interests are pointed to the results found by others. That's one thing I like about delicious, you can browse the bookmarks of others who have "done the thinking" for you.
Sooner or later machines WILL get good at it, but it means giving up any kind of privacy, since the machine would have to have some kind of intimate knowledge about what you do, talk about, email, bookmark, etc, to make the results of searches more relevant.
I've noticed context adds in gmail getting suspiciously relevant and good, over the past couple of months, I have found services I would not have found on my own.
Healthcare Life sciences? (Score:3, Interesting)
I worked at a big tech company doing SemWeb, where my experience was exactly the same. Everyone was scratching their head.
Now I've moved into Healthcare IT environment, where SemWeb makes perfect sense. Its like the best tool for the job.
The essential difference is what end of the stick you are picking up. The tech folks who are trying to shoe-horn RDF/OWL onto anything n everything (e.g. search) are failing. On the other hand, Healthcare/Life science folks who have to work with heavy knowledge intensive stuff, its working like a charm.
The SemWeb story is quite similar to Amazon Kindle.. wherein the tech folks are hating it whereas real users are all over it.. So it might seem like a failure to all you tech bozos.. but the domain experts are lovin' it.