JuliusSu writes "A Chinese auto manufacturer, BYD, is introducing today the country's first electric car, a plug-in hybrid vehicle. It plans to sell at least 10,000 cars in 2009 for a price of less than $22,000. This put the company ahead of schedule against other entrants to this market, such as Toyota, due to release a similar car in late 2009; and GM, whose Chevy Volt will be launched in late 2010. The company is best known for making cellphone batteries, and hopes its expertise in ferrous battery technology will allow it to leapfrog established car manufacturers."
If we're lucky. If they can make an affordable, practical, electric car, more power to them, and if they really sell 10,000 next year, I guess we'll find out.
From the article, it'll cost $22000, have a range of 62 miles, and be available outside China in 2011.
It's a plug in hybrid; the 62 mile range is on batteries alone, then the gas engine can kick in. It's a long way from being good with batteries to making a good car, though.
by Anonymous Coward
on Monday December 15 2008, @06:43PM (#26126595)
True, but don't underestimate the challenges involved in actually assembling a good-looking car that's safe and doesn't break.
Remember the Yugo? Remember how Hyundai was (until recently, anyway)? Hell, (if you're old enough) remember how the Japanese cars once were?
BYD has shown they know how to build laptop batteries. They may be able to scale it up to automobile level (although this is not trivial).
However, they have years to go before they are capable of building automobiles that can compete on safety, comfort and reliability against existing auto makers. They may get there eventually, if they survive that long (Hyundai did, Yugo didn't); however, it's definitely not going to be with their first car. This has nothing to do with being Chinese, and everything to do with being new to market. I wouldn't trust Tesla's first car either, although charging $100K each may give Tesla an advantage in that it can afford to do more over-engineering and cherry-pick good parts than BYD can at its price segment.
One thing I have learned is never under estimate the Chinese, this is a country that has had a incredible GDP since the days of the silk road. One could have said the same about IBM and the computer. we all know how that went. It's not hard to reverse engineer and improve upon an existing design. The only hard part is consumer confidence and brand recognition. US Automaker have done such a good job of killing consumer confidence that most Americans no longer care where it's made cept the fact of the economy
About 5 years ago Toyota built an engine that died after only 30,000 miles due to overheating turning the oil to sludge. Initially Toyota blamed their customers but after the U.S. Consumer Protection Agency threatened to file a lawsuit, Toyota had a sudden change of heart and decided to honor the engine warranty.
Honda had a problem with their early-model Insight having dead batteries. Again, Honda refused to fix the problem and blame the customer, but now
Actually the Pinto incident with the exploding gas tanks turned on the fact that they did know that the design would result in a certain number of deaths, but that it would be cheaper to pay off the resultant law suits than it would be to implement the fix (which involved an $11 part, if memory serves). Of course, the public found out, and damages awards started skyrocketing, thanks to the punitives, so it looks like they mis-calculated, there.
So yes, I do think American car companies would design and sell
Narrator: A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Woman on plane: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents? Narrator: You wouldn't bel
That high quality American car is packed to the gunnels with Chinese made parts, including engines.
About the only thing that is truely american is the arrogance.
Arrogance? You obviously don't know much about chinese cars. It doesn't matter where the parts are made, but american cars aren't ENGINEERED in china. So far all the chinese cars that have been engineered in china have been terrible. I remember one example that looked like any other common car in the US or elsewhere, but it did so poorly in crash testing it couldn't even manage ONE STAR. It was a deathtrap.
Don't call people arrogant without checking your own ignorance. I'm not saying the car can't be good, but given what has come out of china so far, people have a right to be skeptical. -Taylor
...yeah, and a company like them never did anything like take an entire factory and sell it to some 3rd world country so that they could make their own knockoffs...
So far all the chinese cars that have been engineered in china have been terrible.
They said the same thing when the Japanese started making cars... I have no doubt that Chinese companies could engineer cars to meet US/European safety regulations, but at the moment they mainly sell to their domestic less-regulated market, so they save money by having lower engineering standards. If there's money to be made by building to higher standards and exporting to the rest of the world, then they will do it.
So far all the chinese cars that have been engineered in china have been terrible.
They said the same thing when the Japanese started making cars... I have no doubt that Chinese companies could engineer cars to meet US/European safety regulations, but at the moment they mainly sell to their domestic less-regulated market, so they save money by having lower engineering standards. If there's money to be made by building to higher standards and exporting to the rest of the world, then they will do it.
Oh of course. I would never say that a people COULDN'T do it, just that so far they've very much not been making good cars, so new ones should always be looked at with a critical eye. I was mostly correcting the guy who called people arrogant for assuming they'll be crap, when actually it's a pretty reasonable assumption. -Taylor
I was told wiring in the column. The dealer fixed it for free even though the warranty had expired. IIRC they referred to it as an 'after warranty adjustment'. (and I made a typo, it was a 1989 Grand Prix not 1986)
Actually no. There is a LOT of stuff in cars of all brands that is actually made in the U.S. There is also a lot made in other countries. But from what I've seen - working in Detroit for a long time - is that China is not the largest contributor of parts. Go ahead and argue that some Ford cars are assembled in Mexico, while some Toyotas are built in Alabama (not sure that's the right state) but China is not involved in the same way they are with toys for example.
I know it's popular to bash Detroit, but this dumping on them with unfounded gibberish is really getting old. When there are 20+ vehicle manufacturers in the US, it's impressive that the 3 still hold as much market share as they do. Someone must be buying the vehicles.
That explains why a fair number of my graduating ME class went to work for Toyota in the states. They still engineer stuff in Detroit. Industrial Engineers still work in Alabama, TN, Indiana, etc. And those Engineering jobs aren't in China or India. Toyota, Honda, etc are in Japan. VW, BMW, Porsche, etc are in Germany.
I don't get where./ers are convinced that India and China are full of brilliant engineers that are going to take all of our jobs. There's an Indian at work that came over from India. If you bring this subject up to him he'll explain to you that all the jobs we 'outsource' are just a step above what we give interns to do. Running electrical lines in ProE, etc.
When the first Japanese cars showed up in Europe in the 1970s, they were cheap but had a terrible reputation. That has changed. Today they are on the same quality level (and almost as expensive) as European cars. Toyota even ruled the reliability/breakdown statistics for years, only recently some European models have retaken the lead.
I expect that the same will happen with the Chinese cars. They may have not much experience in car making now, but 10 years from now things can look different.
That won't happen, and this [neatorama.com] is why. Japan was forced to build robots to keep costs down.
In manufacturing, there are three kind of builders: The expert craftsman who is probably well paid to do excellent work, the robot who can drill a hole in precisely the same place 10,000 times, and the poorly paid factory worker, for whom really, really good quality control is needed. Guess which one China employs? It is a fact that a part assembled by machine will, given the same effort put into QC, put out a much better product than the same part assembled by low wage humans. low quality parts=poor system reliability.
And the Corvair and Pinto were less of a death trap?
The Pinto was a deathtrap, sure, but not the Corvair. Ralph Nader is a grandstanding dickhead who basically launched his career on false accusations and shoddy methodology in Unsafe at Any Speed. After a 2 year investigation, the NHTSA determined that there wasn't any problem at all with the Corvair. Despite what Ralph Nader thought the law should have been, the fact remains that there was not and is not a requirement that a car fail gracefully when negligently driven beyond its capabilities. GM changed the
Well that was a complete non-sequitur and kinda rude. My point was that Warren Buffet (one of the richest men in the world) has made his fortune by investing in companies that actually turn a profit as opposed to typical speculation. Because of his past success and a 10% stake, there's a chance that the Chinese car is not vaporware.
Now your comment implies that I am somehow responsible for the current financial crisis either because I make speculative investments or take out/issue bad loans, perhaps based on what Warren Buffet does. Those implications aren't true, nor do they have any bearing on the comment I made. So, I can only assume you're trolling for easy mod points.
You should stop because it only makes you look like an idiot.
This is a little OT but I figure someone here might know. With so many electric cars finally coming to market I thought it would be smart to plan ahead even if I'm not ready to take the leap yet...
So, I'm in the process of a remodel and have an easy opportunity to install a high-amperage electric circuit to some location in the garage. Is there any emerging standard for charging electric cars that would dictate the ideal location to put the outlet? I.e. in front of the car, driver side, passenger side, what height from ground, etc. Also amperage, type of plug etc would be good to anticipate, although initially I'd just have an empty conduit running there from the load center.
My understanding is that most (all?) of these plugin hybrids are being designed to fit a standard household electrical socket. I would think if you have a standard GFI outlet in your garage (and I think just about everyone does) you should be fine. Honestly, I don't see how these things would take off if they required rewiring your house just to be able to recharge them.
Last I had heard they were tiered. Standard 110v was like 12 hour recharge, 220v (like water heater or dryer) was like 4 hour and a nonstandard 440v could do in 1-2 hours.
I think you will find the 200 mile range, like every other range spec, is dependent on your driving style. Thrashing any car, petrol or electric, consumes much more than when driving normally. Tesla were not being deceiving at all, from what I've read.
Detroit wasn't interested...someone had to get on with it.
GM killed electric trolley public transportation on the East Coast decades ago, pushing for city buses made by GMC that used internal combustion. The VOLT was promoted using jazzy images of impressive body lines that promoted interest, only to release a breadbox as the final design. GM doesn't want the VOLT to succeed, and now with their imminent demise, they may get their wish.
BYD will be in NA in short time, and more like them will follow. I wish them best of luck.
[The VOLT was promoted using jazzy images of impressive body lines that promoted interest, only to release a breadbox as the final design. GM doesn't want the VOLT to succeed...] Here we go again...
The original design was so un-aerodynamic that Bob Lutz said it was almost better if they put the car in the wind tunnel backward. That's why it was changed.
A big challenge to any new player getting into the electro-auto market is dealer support. Where is someone supposed to get parts for this thing or a Tesla? Sure, an electric vehicle design should require less maintenance, but even components will need to be replaced due to accidents and road wear.
I've heard people say the auto bailout money should go to a start-up like Tesla. The problem with completely abandoning the American automakers and putting public funds behind a startup is that the big three already have huge infrastructure in place. They already understand production. Bless the hearts of those Tesla idealists, but they're going to spend a BUNCH of money developing dealerships, parts distribution, training mechanics & sales people. And until their production numbers get big, the deals they'll cut with suppliers won't be as profitable as the ones Ford/GM/Chrysler make with their suppliers thanks to the economies of scale they're working in.
I'm not saying there isn't a place for smaller companies to come in and fill a niche demand. But now isn't the time to abandon the American auto companies and watch them perish. If that happens, Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai will assist in a huge transfer of wealth overseas.
What's so hard about supporting an electric car? Changing wires? Replacing batteries? How about we make the Big Three assist the nimbler domestic startups. They've shown that their size has been a liability when it comes to change. If they want public funds, they should be serving the best interests of the public - and, increasingly that means GOING green, not play-acting green.
1) Educating and qualifying mechanics to work on the car. Your average Joe at the gas station isn't going to be able to service this thing right off the bat, nor will he be able to open the hood and figure it out after a few minutes' inspection. At least for the first two or three years this car is on the market, you'll be forced to rely on dealer service, simply because there won't be trained mechanics anywhere else. And if you break down someplace where there isn't a dealer handy, you're hosed. A hobbyist owner might be able to repair the car, to a greater or lesser extent, but those repairs might void the warranty, or in some states may disqualify the car from street service entirely.
2) Availability of parts. There is lots and lots more that goes into an electric car, or indeed any car, besides a few hundred feet of wire, an electric motor and a few batteries. If your alternator dies, if you have to replace a transmission or some other drivetrain component, if your windshield cracks, all of those require many more parts to complete beyond the obvious part that's malfunctioning. The problem is compounded if you have multiple systems damaged at once, as in the context of an accident. You'll have to have some mechanism in place to get those parts from their Chinese manufacturers to a U.S. dealer service department, quickly and efficiently. (This is harder than it sounds; as a personal example, I can confirm that for a certain well-known German luxury manufacturer, a replacement front bumper fascia took three weeks to ship from Stuttgart, where replacing the same part on an American vehicle took two days.)
On a related note, you also have to worry about the general lack of infrastructure. Right or wrong, as it stands right now the entire transportation infrastructure in the US is set up to deal with internal combustion vehicles. Changing over to an electric infrastructure is going to take time, at least two or three years and probably more like five or seven, during which time the drivers of electric vehicles are going to be at a major disadvantage. You won't be able to charge most places, won't be able to get service most places, might not be able to drive on freeways or other limited access roads (at least here, freeways are restricted to internal combustion vehicles with engines greater than 125 CC displacement, which can't be powered farm equipment, and must be able to maintain a minimum speed of 55 MPH). Those restrictions might be enough to put people off electrics entirely, or at the very least slow their adoption. It'd be a damned shame if that happened, but it's a very real risk. In the meanwhile, everyone who bought these electric cars will be in the lurch, and if the manufacturer folds, the vehicles will be little more than hobby pieces.
1) Educating and qualifying mechanics to work on the car. Your average Joe at the gas station isn't going to be able to service this thing right off the bat, nor will he be able to open the hood and figure it out after a few minutes' inspection. At least for the first two or three years this car is on the market, you'll be forced to rely on dealer service, simply because there won't be trained mechanics anywhere else. And if you break down someplace where there isn't a dealer handy, you're hosed.
EVs are primarily going to be used for commuting, so I imagine most people aren't going to be that far from the dealer where they bought the car.
2) Availability of parts. There is lots and lots more that goes into an electric car, or indeed any car, besides a few hundred feet of wire, an electric motor and a few batteries. If your alternator dies, if you have to replace a transmission or some other drivetrain component, if your windshield cracks, all of those require many more parts to complete beyond the obvious part that's malfunctioning. The problem is compounded if you have multiple systems damaged at once, as in the context of an accident. You'll have to have some mechanism in place to get those parts from their Chinese manufacturers to a U.S. dealer service department, quickly and efficiently. (This is harder than it sounds; as a personal example, I can confirm that for a certain well-known German luxury manufacturer, a replacement front bumper fascia took three weeks to ship from Stuttgart, where replacing the same part on an American vehicle took two days.)
Yet people still buy Germany luxury cars, despite this problem.
On a related note, you also have to worry about the general lack of infrastructure. Right or wrong, as it stands right now the entire transportation infrastructure in the US is set up to deal with internal combustion vehicles. Changing over to an electric infrastructure is going to take time, at least two or three years and probably more like five or seven, during which time the drivers of electric vehicles are going to be at a major disadvantage. You won't be able to charge most places, won't be able to get service most places, might not be able to drive on freeways or other limited access roads (at least here, freeways are restricted to internal combustion vehicles with engines greater than 125 CC displacement, which can't be powered farm equipment, and must be able to maintain a minimum speed of 55 MPH). Those restrictions might be enough to put people off electrics entirely, or at the very least slow their adoption. It'd be a damned shame if that happened, but it's a very real risk. In the meanwhile, everyone who bought these electric cars will be in the lurch, and if the manufacturer folds, the vehicles will be little more than hobby pieces.
Like I said before, people are using their cars 99% for commuting, most likely with 50 miles from their home, round trip. You recharge at home at night. No need to build charging stations or anything like that. Even if they were - the infrastructure is already there. Every where you can find a gas st
I have yet to see a serious, insightful post about this story. A little googling turned up pics and data although I confess that I don't know what 16 kwh / 100 KM works out to in MPG.
The pictures I saw of the car look pretty nice. Congrats to the Chinese - if this turns out to be a quality vehicle, it may force the Big Three stragglers to dump some of their guzzlers and give us clean, efficient vehicles we can depend on
I avoid any products made in China now because I can't trust them anymore. How much food is recalled and childrens toys? Do you want to be in an accident in one of these things and then find out that to cut costs, they used cheap air-bags?
Another reason to avoid Chinese goods (if their human rights record isn't good enough) is that their industry is ecologically harmful. Chinese industry have little incentive not to polute the environment in some of the most egregious ways.
Part of the problem is that it would be rather expensive to engineer a car to meet 50 different emission standards. Nobody, except the state's showing their control, wants that.
So why not make it meet the strictest standards? Partly because it just keeps pushing the costs higher for stuff nobody needs in the other 49 states. There is also nothing that suggests there would be one "strictest" standard.
California was allowed to set requirements that no other state had for quite a while. In the beginning it required reworking and adjusting a car that was imported into California before it could be sold there. So you would see cars selling for $3,000 to $5,000 higher in California. Should you be so silly as to buy a car in Arizona when you were a California resident you would be faced with paying that extra amount to have the car modified before it could be licensed. So in a way, we have tried this already and it was a disaster. It might have helped out air quality in California or it might not have. Nobody really knows.
I'd say the biggest problem would be conflicting requirements between states. If this was allowed, and so far the Federal Government hasn't made it clear that such state level regulation would never be allowed, you would have a different set of hardware for each state for each car. Sure, California could have their regulations but there would be nothing to prevent Nevada from having different and mutually exclusive requirements.
The only sensible way is to have one Federal standard. It works for car owners, it works for car manufacturers and it can work for everyone else as well. The problem seems to be enacting some realistic legislation at the Federal level.
Also, it isn't going to help if some states are allowed to regulate batteries for electric and hybrid cars. Not long ago California prevented sales of cars with lots and lots of lead-acid batteries in them because of the hazards of both lead and acid. I do not know what the state of things are today, but there are plenty of people doing electric car conversions using lead-acid batteries. I suspect it is not legal to buy, sell, modify or license such a car today in California. There is no reason to think that other states will be any more forgiving about toxic pollutants if each state is allowed to pass their own regulations.
It is hybrid, it has a backup gasoline engine.
It's not really new, but it's better than all electric like the Tesla. It may be fast, but as it has been shown in the latest episode of Top Gear, it has a major drawback, recharging time.
Seeing the hydrogen-powered Honda FCX Clarity in that same episode showed how it can be done practically. Fill up like a gasoline car, be done in two minutes and drive on.
For those that haven't seen it, info and torrent link here [finalgear.com].
quality (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
This should be good, lol.
If we're lucky. If they can make an affordable, practical, electric car, more power to them, and if they really sell 10,000 next year, I guess we'll find out.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Let's see. From the article, it'll cost $22000, have a range of 62 miles, and be available outside China in 2011.
This doesn't look like it'll meet your expectations.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
From the article, it'll cost $22000, have a range of 62 miles, and be available outside China in 2011.
It's a plug in hybrid; the 62 mile range is on batteries alone, then the gas engine can kick in. It's a long way from being good with batteries to making a good car, though.
Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
About the only thing that is truely american is the arrogance.
Parent
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
True, but don't underestimate the challenges involved in actually assembling a good-looking car that's safe and doesn't break.
Remember the Yugo? Remember how Hyundai was (until recently, anyway)? Hell, (if you're old enough) remember how the Japanese cars once were?
BYD has shown they know how to build laptop batteries. They may be able to scale it up to automobile level (although this is not trivial).
However, they have years to go before they are capable of building automobiles that can compete on safety, comfort and reliability against existing auto makers. They may get there eventually, if they survive that long (Hyundai did, Yugo didn't); however, it's definitely not going to be with their first car. This has nothing to do with being Chinese, and everything to do with being new to market. I wouldn't trust Tesla's first car either, although charging $100K each may give Tesla an advantage in that it can afford to do more over-engineering and cherry-pick good parts than BYD can at its price segment.
Parent
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
True, but don't underestimate the challenges involved in actually assembling a good-looking car that's safe and doesn't break.
Remember the Yugo? Remember how Hyundai was (until recently, anyway)?
Remember Chevy? Remember Ford?
Yeah.
Parent
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:5, Interesting)
One thing I have learned is never under estimate the Chinese, this is a country that has had a incredible GDP since the days of the silk road. One could have said the same about IBM and the computer. we all know how that went. It's not hard to reverse engineer and improve upon an existing design. The only hard part is consumer confidence and brand recognition. US Automaker have done such a good job of killing consumer confidence that most Americans no longer care where it's made cept the fact of the economy
Parent
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:4, Insightful)
It's packed with Chinese-made parts that have to adhere to American safety regulations.
Is this batch of 10,000 going to do the same?
It's a serious question, btw. At $22k a pop this could very well be the case.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Even the "good" Japanese companies have problems.
About 5 years ago Toyota built an engine that died after only 30,000 miles due to overheating turning the oil to sludge. Initially Toyota blamed their customers but after the U.S. Consumer Protection Agency threatened to file a lawsuit, Toyota had a sudden change of heart and decided to honor the engine warranty.
Honda had a problem with their early-model Insight having dead batteries. Again, Honda refused to fix the problem and blame the customer, but now
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually the Pinto incident with the exploding gas tanks turned on the fact that they did know that the design would result in a certain number of deaths, but that it would be cheaper to pay off the resultant law suits than it would be to implement the fix (which involved an $11 part, if memory serves). Of course, the public found out, and damages awards started skyrocketing, thanks to the punitives, so it looks like they mis-calculated, there.
So yes, I do think American car companies would design and sell
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Narrator: A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Woman on plane: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
Narrator: You wouldn't bel
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:5, Interesting)
That high quality American car is packed to the gunnels with Chinese made parts, including engines.
About the only thing that is truely american is the arrogance.
Arrogance? You obviously don't know much about chinese cars. It doesn't matter where the parts are made, but american cars aren't ENGINEERED in china. So far all the chinese cars that have been engineered in china have been terrible. I remember one example that looked like any other common car in the US or elsewhere, but it did so poorly in crash testing it couldn't even manage ONE STAR. It was a deathtrap.
Don't call people arrogant without checking your own ignorance. I'm not saying the car can't be good, but given what has come out of china so far, people have a right to be skeptical.
-Taylor
Parent
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:5, Informative)
Deathtrap? I think after watching these videos, most people will agree you are being a bit generous.
http://www.break.com/index/failed-chinese-crash-test.html [break.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZWy_fASSiQ [youtube.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVwmuQqN46g [youtube.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEeqxq7EtQU [youtube.com]
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/22/brilliance-bs6s-adac-crash-test-is-anything-but/ [autoblog.com]
http://www.leftlanenews.com/chinese-sedan-flunks-german-crash-test-with-video.html [leftlanenews.com]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
...yeah, and a company like them never did anything like take an entire
factory and sell it to some 3rd world country so that they could make
their own knockoffs...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They said the same thing when the Japanese started making cars... I have no doubt that Chinese companies could engineer cars to meet US/European safety regulations, but at the moment they mainly sell to their domestic less-regulated market, so they save money by having lower engineering standards. If there's money to be made by building to higher standards and exporting to the rest of the world, then they will do it.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
They said the same thing when the Japanese started making cars... I have no doubt that Chinese companies could engineer cars to meet US/European safety regulations, but at the moment they mainly sell to their domestic less-regulated market, so they save money by having lower engineering standards. If there's money to be made by building to higher standards and exporting to the rest of the world, then they will do it.
Oh of course. I would never say that a people COULDN'T do it, just that so far they've very much not been making good cars, so new ones should always be looked at with a critical eye. I was mostly correcting the guy who called people arrogant for assuming they'll be crap, when actually it's a pretty reasonable assumption.
-Taylor
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:5, Funny)
About the only thing that is truely american is the arrogance.
Best in class baby! USA! USA!
...whoops, the steering wheel on my Pontiac caught on fire. [*]
[*] BTW, this actually happened to me on a 5 year old
1986 Pontiac Grand Prix while I was driving it.
I now drive a Toyota.
Parent
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:4, Informative)
I was told wiring in the column. The dealer fixed it for free even though the warranty had expired. IIRC they referred to it as an 'after warranty adjustment'. (and I made a typo, it was a 1989 Grand Prix not 1986)
Parent
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:4, Interesting)
That explains why a fair number of my graduating ME class went to work for Toyota in the states. They still engineer stuff in Detroit. Industrial Engineers still work in Alabama, TN, Indiana, etc. And those Engineering jobs aren't in China or India. Toyota, Honda, etc are in Japan. VW, BMW, Porsche, etc are in Germany.
I don't get where ./ers are convinced that India and China are full of brilliant engineers that are going to take all of our jobs. There's an Indian at work that came over from India. If you bring this subject up to him he'll explain to you that all the jobs we 'outsource' are just a step above what we give interns to do. Running electrical lines in ProE, etc.
Parent
Re:Your "American" car is full of Chinese stuff (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
People laughed about Japanese cars, too. (Score:5, Interesting)
When the first Japanese cars showed up in Europe in the 1970s, they were cheap but had a terrible reputation. That has changed. Today they are on the same quality level (and almost as expensive) as European cars. Toyota even ruled the reliability/breakdown statistics for years, only recently some European models have retaken the lead.
I expect that the same will happen with the Chinese cars. They may have not much experience in car making now, but 10 years from now things can look different.
Parent
Re:People laughed about Japanese cars, too. (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:People laughed about Japanese cars, too. (Score:4, Insightful)
Or there's the fourth, American kind: the highly paid, unskilled factory worker.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And the Corvair and Pinto were less of a death trap?
The Pinto was a deathtrap, sure, but not the Corvair. Ralph Nader is a grandstanding dickhead who basically launched his career on false accusations and shoddy methodology in Unsafe at Any Speed. After a 2 year investigation, the NHTSA determined that there wasn't any problem at all with the Corvair. Despite what Ralph Nader thought the law should have been, the fact remains that there was not and is not a requirement that a car fail gracefully when negligently driven beyond its capabilities. GM changed the
I'll believe it when I see it (Score:2)
Vaporware. Woo Hoo Hoo.
Re:I'll believe it when I see it (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:I'll believe it when I see it (Score:5, Insightful)
Now your comment implies that I am somehow responsible for the current financial crisis either because I make speculative investments or take out/issue bad loans, perhaps based on what Warren Buffet does. Those implications aren't true, nor do they have any bearing on the comment I made. So, I can only assume you're trolling for easy mod points.
You should stop because it only makes you look like an idiot.
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Re:I'll believe it when I see it (Score:5, Informative)
Your entire proof that Buffet has any interest in this venture is a story on Slashdot. That makes you the idiot.
Curiously, I do not share your sentiment about the other poster.
I am, however, fairly confident that you are an imbecile. [google.com]
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.zapworld.com/electric-vehicles/electric-cars/xebra-sedan [zapworld.com]
For the fully electric version.
It's been available in the states for 2 years now.
Charging an electric car (Score:5, Interesting)
This is a little OT but I figure someone here might know. With so many electric cars finally coming to market I thought it would be smart to plan ahead even if I'm not ready to take the leap yet...
So, I'm in the process of a remodel and have an easy opportunity to install a high-amperage electric circuit to some location in the garage. Is there any emerging standard for charging electric cars that would dictate the ideal location to put the outlet? I.e. in front of the car, driver side, passenger side, what height from ground, etc. Also amperage, type of plug etc would be good to anticipate, although initially I'd just have an empty conduit running there from the load center.
Re:Charging an electric car (Score:5, Insightful)
My understanding is that most (all?) of these plugin hybrids are being designed to fit a standard household electrical socket. I would think if you have a standard GFI outlet in your garage (and I think just about everyone does) you should be fine. Honestly, I don't see how these things would take off if they required rewiring your house just to be able to recharge them.
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Re:Charging an electric car (Score:4, Informative)
Last I had heard they were tiered. Standard 110v was like 12 hour recharge, 220v (like water heater or dryer) was like 4 hour and a nonstandard 440v could do in 1-2 hours.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
55 mile range (instead of the advertised 200+).
I think you will find the 200 mile range, like every other range spec, is dependent on your driving style. Thrashing any car, petrol or electric, consumes much more than when driving normally. Tesla were not being deceiving at all, from what I've read.
Bye, bye GM :) (Score:5, Insightful)
GM killed electric trolley public transportation on the East Coast decades ago, pushing for city buses made by GMC that used internal combustion. The VOLT was promoted using jazzy images of impressive body lines that promoted interest, only to release a breadbox as the final design. GM doesn't want the VOLT to succeed, and now with their imminent demise, they may get their wish.
BYD will be in NA in short time, and more like them will follow. I wish them best of luck.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
[The VOLT was promoted using jazzy images of impressive body lines that promoted interest, only to release a breadbox as the final design. GM doesn't want the VOLT to succeed...]
Here we go again...
The original design was so un-aerodynamic that Bob Lutz said it was almost better if they put the car in the wind tunnel backward. That's why it was changed.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
the volt was originally developed in germany by opel anyway.
Warning (Score:3, Funny)
I drove one of these but two hours later I felt hungry again and had to drive it some more.
good luck getting support (Score:4, Insightful)
A big challenge to any new player getting into the electro-auto market is dealer support. Where is someone supposed to get parts for this thing or a Tesla? Sure, an electric vehicle design should require less maintenance, but even components will need to be replaced due to accidents and road wear.
I've heard people say the auto bailout money should go to a start-up like Tesla. The problem with completely abandoning the American automakers and putting public funds behind a startup is that the big three already have huge infrastructure in place. They already understand production. Bless the hearts of those Tesla idealists, but they're going to spend a BUNCH of money developing dealerships, parts distribution, training mechanics & sales people. And until their production numbers get big, the deals they'll cut with suppliers won't be as profitable as the ones Ford/GM/Chrysler make with their suppliers thanks to the economies of scale they're working in.
I'm not saying there isn't a place for smaller companies to come in and fill a niche demand. But now isn't the time to abandon the American auto companies and watch them perish. If that happens, Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai will assist in a huge transfer of wealth overseas.
Seth
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What's so hard about supporting an electric car?
Changing wires? Replacing batteries? How about we make the Big Three assist the nimbler domestic startups.
They've shown that their size has been a liability when it comes to change.
If they want public funds, they should be serving the best interests of the public - and, increasingly that means GOING green, not play-acting green.
Re:good luck getting support (Score:5, Informative)
What's so hard about supporting an electric car?
Quite a bit, if you think about it:
1) Educating and qualifying mechanics to work on the car. Your average Joe at the gas station isn't going to be able to service this thing right off the bat, nor will he be able to open the hood and figure it out after a few minutes' inspection. At least for the first two or three years this car is on the market, you'll be forced to rely on dealer service, simply because there won't be trained mechanics anywhere else. And if you break down someplace where there isn't a dealer handy, you're hosed. A hobbyist owner might be able to repair the car, to a greater or lesser extent, but those repairs might void the warranty, or in some states may disqualify the car from street service entirely.
2) Availability of parts. There is lots and lots more that goes into an electric car, or indeed any car, besides a few hundred feet of wire, an electric motor and a few batteries. If your alternator dies, if you have to replace a transmission or some other drivetrain component, if your windshield cracks, all of those require many more parts to complete beyond the obvious part that's malfunctioning. The problem is compounded if you have multiple systems damaged at once, as in the context of an accident. You'll have to have some mechanism in place to get those parts from their Chinese manufacturers to a U.S. dealer service department, quickly and efficiently. (This is harder than it sounds; as a personal example, I can confirm that for a certain well-known German luxury manufacturer, a replacement front bumper fascia took three weeks to ship from Stuttgart, where replacing the same part on an American vehicle took two days.)
On a related note, you also have to worry about the general lack of infrastructure. Right or wrong, as it stands right now the entire transportation infrastructure in the US is set up to deal with internal combustion vehicles. Changing over to an electric infrastructure is going to take time, at least two or three years and probably more like five or seven, during which time the drivers of electric vehicles are going to be at a major disadvantage. You won't be able to charge most places, won't be able to get service most places, might not be able to drive on freeways or other limited access roads (at least here, freeways are restricted to internal combustion vehicles with engines greater than 125 CC displacement, which can't be powered farm equipment, and must be able to maintain a minimum speed of 55 MPH). Those restrictions might be enough to put people off electrics entirely, or at the very least slow their adoption. It'd be a damned shame if that happened, but it's a very real risk. In the meanwhile, everyone who bought these electric cars will be in the lurch, and if the manufacturer folds, the vehicles will be little more than hobby pieces.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
What's so hard about supporting an electric car?
Quite a bit, if you think about it:
1) Educating and qualifying mechanics to work on the car. Your average Joe at the gas station isn't going to be able to service this thing right off the bat, nor will he be able to open the hood and figure it out after a few minutes' inspection. At least for the first two or three years this car is on the market, you'll be forced to rely on dealer service, simply because there won't be trained mechanics anywhere else. And if you break down someplace where there isn't a dealer handy, you're hosed.
EVs are primarily going to be used for commuting, so I imagine most people aren't going to be that far from the dealer where they bought the car.
2) Availability of parts. There is lots and lots more that goes into an electric car, or indeed any car, besides a few hundred feet of wire, an electric motor and a few batteries. If your alternator dies, if you have to replace a transmission or some other drivetrain component, if your windshield cracks, all of those require many more parts to complete beyond the obvious part that's malfunctioning. The problem is compounded if you have multiple systems damaged at once, as in the context of an accident. You'll have to have some mechanism in place to get those parts from their Chinese manufacturers to a U.S. dealer service department, quickly and efficiently. (This is harder than it sounds; as a personal example, I can confirm that for a certain well-known German luxury manufacturer, a replacement front bumper fascia took three weeks to ship from Stuttgart, where replacing the same part on an American vehicle took two days.)
Yet people still buy Germany luxury cars, despite this problem.
On a related note, you also have to worry about the general lack of infrastructure. Right or wrong, as it stands right now the entire transportation infrastructure in the US is set up to deal with internal combustion vehicles. Changing over to an electric infrastructure is going to take time, at least two or three years and probably more like five or seven, during which time the drivers of electric vehicles are going to be at a major disadvantage. You won't be able to charge most places, won't be able to get service most places, might not be able to drive on freeways or other limited access roads (at least here, freeways are restricted to internal combustion vehicles with engines greater than 125 CC displacement, which can't be powered farm equipment, and must be able to maintain a minimum speed of 55 MPH). Those restrictions might be enough to put people off electrics entirely, or at the very least slow their adoption. It'd be a damned shame if that happened, but it's a very real risk. In the meanwhile, everyone who bought these electric cars will be in the lurch, and if the manufacturer folds, the vehicles will be little more than hobby pieces.
Like I said before, people are using their cars 99% for commuting, most likely with 50 miles from their home, round trip. You recharge at home at night. No need to build charging stations or anything like that. Even if they were - the infrastructure is already there. Every where you can find a gas st
What's wrong with you people? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have yet to see a serious, insightful post about this story. A little googling turned up pics and data although I confess that I don't know what
16 kwh / 100 KM works out to in MPG.
The pictures I saw of the car look pretty nice. Congrats to the Chinese - if this turns out to be a quality vehicle, it may force the Big Three stragglers to dump some of their guzzlers and give
us clean, efficient vehicles we can depend on
Re:Anyone can make an electric car (Score:5, Interesting)
I avoid any products made in China now because I can't trust them anymore. How much food is recalled and childrens toys? Do you want to be in an accident in one of these things and then find out that to cut costs, they used cheap air-bags?
Another reason to avoid Chinese goods (if their human rights record isn't good enough) is that their industry is ecologically harmful. Chinese industry have little incentive not to polute the environment in some of the most egregious ways.
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Re:Anyone can make an electric car (Score:5, Funny)
No, it doesn't exist yet.
Is it made of Melamine like all their food?
You're planning on eating the thing? Interesting.
I avoid any products made in China now because I can't trust them anymore.
Don't eat random products made anywhere.
How much food is recalled and childrens toys?
Boy, you're really hungry, aren't you? Shouldn't eat toys.
Do you want to be in an accident in one of these things and then find out that to cut costs, they used cheap air-bags?
No, I don't want to be in an accident in anything small. I want to be in an accident in my 3/4 ton 4WD pickup.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Everyone seems to forget or willfully ignore that Toyota also filed similar lawsuits against states trying to impose stricter emission guidelines.
Re: I have to wonder (Score:4, Interesting)
Part of the problem is that it would be rather expensive to engineer a car to meet 50 different emission standards. Nobody, except the state's showing their control, wants that.
So why not make it meet the strictest standards? Partly because it just keeps pushing the costs higher for stuff nobody needs in the other 49 states. There is also nothing that suggests there would be one "strictest" standard.
California was allowed to set requirements that no other state had for quite a while. In the beginning it required reworking and adjusting a car that was imported into California before it could be sold there. So you would see cars selling for $3,000 to $5,000 higher in California. Should you be so silly as to buy a car in Arizona when you were a California resident you would be faced with paying that extra amount to have the car modified before it could be licensed. So in a way, we have tried this already and it was a disaster. It might have helped out air quality in California or it might not have. Nobody really knows.
I'd say the biggest problem would be conflicting requirements between states. If this was allowed, and so far the Federal Government hasn't made it clear that such state level regulation would never be allowed, you would have a different set of hardware for each state for each car. Sure, California could have their regulations but there would be nothing to prevent Nevada from having different and mutually exclusive requirements.
The only sensible way is to have one Federal standard. It works for car owners, it works for car manufacturers and it can work for everyone else as well. The problem seems to be enacting some realistic legislation at the Federal level.
Also, it isn't going to help if some states are allowed to regulate batteries for electric and hybrid cars. Not long ago California prevented sales of cars with lots and lots of lead-acid batteries in them because of the hazards of both lead and acid. I do not know what the state of things are today, but there are plenty of people doing electric car conversions using lead-acid batteries. I suspect it is not legal to buy, sell, modify or license such a car today in California. There is no reason to think that other states will be any more forgiving about toxic pollutants if each state is allowed to pass their own regulations.
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Re:Which is it? (Score:4, Informative)
It's not really new, but it's better than all electric like the Tesla. It may be fast, but as it has been shown in the latest episode of Top Gear, it has a major drawback, recharging time.
Seeing the hydrogen-powered Honda FCX Clarity in that same episode showed how it can be done practically. Fill up like a gasoline car, be done in two minutes and drive on.
For those that haven't seen it, info and torrent link here [finalgear.com].
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